Conflict Minerals: Consider this before buying a new electronic product.

[TopazRaven]

I'm a bit in distress now. I don't think I could find out where everything I buy comes from. This sounds especially hard when it comes to clothes or random items like knick-knacks. Or pretty much everything I own. I don't want to support human suffereing, but I'm not sure if I can figure out if everything I own and buy comes from a company like that. Almost all items are already made in China and India for example. In least where I live.

[Furen]

But this is not about people getting jobs. This is about people being violently enslaved against their will to work for no pay. This is about thousands upon thousands of women getting raped as a method of subjugation. This is about children being forced into guerrilla para-military groups that repeat the cycle of violence and rape to others.

Wait, so women are being raped for our Nintendo 3DS?

[Htom Sirveaux]

Wait, so women are being raped for our Nintendo 3DS?

Yeah. Shame on you for wanting one.

[Peanut]

Hmmm, looking at this there is one question that's going through my mind and that's how long has this been going on? What I've been reading seems to suggest 12 years which would mean that this dates back to when individuals around my age were in Middle School. So as I consider this I have to ask myself and all of you if you would be willing to sell every electronic item you've bought from the companies that have been taking advantage of this situation and then donate the money to a charity or organization that is working against this. There are a couple of reasons why I'm bringing this up:

1) Talking about things is nice but action is better. This would be one way to actively and symbolically fight this problem.

2) While we cannot be held morally accountable for purchasing these items when we had no knowledge of what was going on, now that we know and are calling for action it seems to me that we should do something to pay for our ignorance in the past. So selling those nice Nintendo Wii's, Nintendo DS, Laptops, etc and then giving that money to help fight against this would be a great way to at least attempt to "atone" for our ignorance. Besides, material goods are just temporary and the real treasures are stored up in heaven so what's stopping us all?

So, whose with me?

[Cognitive Gear]

This is where I want to say case and point, if you answer yes to the question "Have you ever been told that it's not a good place to be/eat?"

I'm not being ignorant on the subject, I'm not going to go buy everything that comes out from only the non responsive companies, but I'm not just going to boycott Nintendo (or who ever) if they didn't respond either, sure, I would try to get them to agree, but I'm not going to off a company for things that may harm their business. (and yes, adding campaigns for companies are very expensive, so I see why they may not be vocal.)

To get this across, I dislike this as much as many of you, but I am also looking at the other points, like it creates jobs, may be bad conditions, but they agree, even if they don't like it.

Two things:

Companies should not be immune to moral considerations just because they are doing it for more profit. If anything, the fact that their sole consideration in everything they do is profit should push us to keep them accountable even more, given that they don't have consciences and are incapable of love or hate. They are driven only by profit (greed).

Secondly, I don't see how they have a choice if they want to keep on living. Most of these regions have had their traditional occupations destroyed by the very occupations they now have to work in to get food on the table for their families.

I don't think that people are entitled to less simply because they didn't win the location-at-birth lottery.

[Nate]

Wait, so women are being raped for our Nintendo 3DS?

It's not quite as simple as that, but it's not an entirely untruthful statement. It's more of an appeal to emotion, it would probably be better phrased as "Nintendo may purchase materials for their products from places that are known to do such things as enslave people, rape women, and force children into labor."

Also, the stuff I said in my post on the last page. I hate, hate, HATE having the last post on a page because I feel like no one ever sees it.

[Mr. SmartyPants]

Wait, so women are being raped for our Nintendo 3DS?

Technically, no. But in essence... YES. Women in the Congo are subjugated to rape and forced marriages as a tactic of fear and enslavement. Men are forced to mine and children are forced into military guerrilla groups. All to unethically capitalize on minerals which are found inside electronic devices.

Nintendo (and others, especially Canon, Panasonic, and Sharp) has not released any statements. Until they begin ethical business practices, I will not be buying from them and I will tell others not to buy from them.

From wikipedia:

Conflict minerals refer to minerals mined in conditions of armed conflict and human rights abuses, notably in the eastern provinces of the Democratic Republic of the Congo, by the Congolese National Army and various armed rebel groups, including the Democratic Forces for the Liberation of Rwanda. The profits from the sale of these minerals finance continued fighting in the Second Congo War, and control of lucrative mines becomes a focus of the fighting as well. The most commonly mined minerals are cassiterite, wolframite, coltan, and gold, which are extracted from the Eastern Congo, and passed through a variety of intermediaries before being purchased by multinational electronics companies. These minerals are essential in the manufacture of a variety of devices, like mobile phones, laptops, and MP3 players.

Mines in eastern Congo are often located far from populated areas in remote, insecure and inaccessible regions. A recent study by IPIS indicates that armed groups are present at more than 50% of mining sites. At many sites, armed groups illegally tax, extort, and coerce civilians to work. Miners, including children, work up to 48-hour shifts amidst mudslides and tunnel collapses that kill many. The groups are often affiliated with rebel groups, or with the Congolese National Army, but both use rape and violence to control the local population.

[ShiroiHikari]

So...start a campaign to set up a real government in the Democratic Republic of the Congo?

[goldenspines]

Honestly, I think it's rather confusing trying to figure out what to buy or what not to buy or not buying anything at all. God didn't call us to "fix" the world; He can do that on His own. We would only get in His way.

It's quite true that there is sin in the world. And no matter what actions of buying or not buying we take, sin will sprout up again and again. So, instead of not buying this or that, pray for these people in Africa; the oppressed and the oppressors. Love them all and ask God to save them. Go to the source of the issue; the sinner's heart. And only God can reach that; therefore praying is the better option, I think.


Also, this topic borders on a political issue, and the discussion of which is not allowed on CAA at present.

[Mr. SmartyPants]

In the end, it's a political corruption issue, Nette. But that does not mean that we should ignore the other issues that are birthed from the larger issue. Everyone should do what we can. This means both consumers and politicians. In fact right now the SEC is making proposals for this. Baby steps.

The Securities and Exchange Commission (“SEC”) issued its proposed, far-reaching draft regulations to implement the conflict mineral provisions of the Wall Street Reform and Consumer Protection Act (“Dodd-Frank Act”). The proposed regulations would require U.S. and foreign companies to report and make public the use of so-called “conflict minerals” from the Democratic Republic of the Congo (“DRC”) or adjoining countries in their products. However, the definition of which companies may have to report seems to exceed the intent of the actual statute. Comments on this proposal are due by January 31, 2011.

Hmmm, looking at this there is one question that's going through my mind and that's how long has this been going on? What I've been reading seems to suggest 12 years which would mean that this dates back to when individuals around my age were in Middle School. So as I consider this I have to ask myself and all of you if you would be willing to sell every electronic item you've bought from the companies that have been taking advantage of this situation and then donate the money to a charity or organization that is working against this. There are a couple of reasons why I'm bringing this up:

1) Talking about things is nice but action is better. This would be one way to actively and symbolically fight this problem.

2) While we cannot be held morally accountable for purchasing these items when we had no knowledge of what was going on, now that we know and are calling for action it seems to me that we should do something to pay for our ignorance in the past. So selling those nice Nintendo Wii's, Nintendo DS, Laptops, etc and then giving that money to help fight against this would be a great way to at least attempt to "atone" for our ignorance. Besides, material goods are just temporary and the real treasures are stored up in heaven so what's stopping us all?

So, whose with me?

Interesting, but the problem is that you're still supporting a product by letting it exist. Following your logic, it would be better to destroy them. Or sell them to someone that's willing to destroy them? Haha.

There's also the issue that we already own these products. But we can be consciously aware of future purchases.

[ShiroiHikari]

Why don't we just all go live in grass huts and do nothing but pray all day every day.

[Nate]

Only if the women also wear grass skirts.

[Peanut]

Interesting, but the problem is that you're still supporting a product by letting it exist. Following your logic, it would be better to destroy them. Or sell them to someone that's willing to destroy them? Haha.

No, that really isn't a problem. What you are claiming is that the product itself is evil, what I was claiming was that the action of purchasing it is evil. The product is just a combination of matter, some of which came from the Republic of Congo. The action of supporting the company by paying them your funds is the problem. This is why I used the term "atone" in reference to this action. While it is true that you were ignorant of what you did, this is a way to say "I am now aware and will take a bold step to show everyone around me that this really bothers me." While telling people that you aren't happy with your iPhone 4 because of this is a way to raise awareness it pales in being able to tell people that you once owned an iPhone 4 but, when you learned about Conflict Minerals, you were so disturbed by your support for this activity that you sold it and used that money to help those fighting against it fight against it.

There's also the issue that we already own these products. But we can be consciously aware of future purchases.

So, why would this stop you from selling those products and donating the money to organizations and charities fighting against this problem? Yes, you did buy the product but that's why I'm suggesting this. Beyond the atonement reasons it would also say and show that the lives of all those people in the Republic of Congo being tortured because of this are more important to you then these petty material goods that you probably won't be using in the next 5 years. What I'm basically suggesting is actually the same as what Jesus suggested to the rich young ruler. You know, sell all your riches and give them to the poor. So, are you all rich young rulers or are you really willing to sacrifice to see this change?

[Cognitive Gear]

Why don't we just all go live in grass huts and do nothing but pray all day every day.

I understand what you are saying, but I don't think that it's Christ like to become a hermit and pray to God without taking any action, either.

Hmmm, looking at this there is one question that's going through my mind and that's how long has this been going on? What I've been reading seems to suggest 12 years which would mean that this dates back to when individuals around my age were in Middle School. So as I consider this I have to ask myself and all of you if you would be willing to sell every electronic item you've bought from the companies that have been taking advantage of this situation and then donate the money to a charity or organization that is working against this. There are a couple of reasons why I'm bringing this up:

1) Talking about things is nice but action is better. This would be one way to actively and symbolically fight this problem.

2) While we cannot be held morally accountable for purchasing these items when we had no knowledge of what was going on, now that we know and are calling for action it seems to me that we should do something to pay for our ignorance in the past. So selling those nice Nintendo Wii's, Nintendo DS, Laptops, etc and then giving that money to help fight against this would be a great way to at least attempt to "atone" for our ignorance. Besides, material goods are just temporary and the real treasures are stored up in heaven so what's stopping us all?

So, whose with me?

This is something I have been trying to find a solution to. Some things, like my old Converse, I simply decided to ear them until they are unwearable since donating them or selling them was not an option. My next pair of shoes will be a pair of Ethletics. (Ethically made shoes)

Generally, this is the approach I have taken with my clothing. It is slowly but surely getting replaced.

The other things, I haven't yet decided what to do with, but your idea is fantastic. I am going to start going through my things to see what I can do.

[Mr. SmartyPants]

Peanut, your point is really interesting. And I'll have to really think about it for a bit. Thanks for bringing up another perspective.

[Htom Sirveaux]

Only if the women also wear grass skirts.

Well glory be, something we agree on. XD

Thank you, Nate, for providing some much-needed levity.

[TopazRaven]

I do have to say I find this whole subject very distressing and upsetting and I don't know where I stand on the conflict itself. I realize I'm a very selfish, terrible, horrible person because I really don't want to sell these things. Probably everything I own has the potential to have hurt someone in their making as I don't know where they came from.

[Furen]

I do have to say I find this whole subject very distressing and upsetting and I don't know where I stand on the conflict itself. I realize I'm a very selfish, terrible, horrible person because I really don't want to sell these things. Probably everything I own has the potential to have hurt someone in their making as I don't know where they came from.

This doesn't make you a terrible person for buying stuff. People kill cows for our beef and pigs for our bacon, but we don't fight over that (well those of us that do eat meat).

[goldenspines]

Then we might as well stop donating to charity and work at soup kitchens! We might as well stop aiding in disaster relief! God will heal the Haitians in their recent disaster! We don't need to do anything about it, then? We should instead pray... other people to take action to help others? Instead of praying for other people to work towards good, why don't WE that person? If we can do even something, then we should, because we are to embody love

Justice too long delayed is justice denied.

Jesus NEVER, EVER, EVER preached "Prayer without action", as you are proposing. He actively loved humanity and you should too.

I never realized that spreading awareness about the DEATH and RAPE of other individuals at the expense of our buying habits was "too political" for CAA. I'm sorry if I think awareness on this issue is more important than your version of the rules here.

Yes, it is clear you read my post wrong. I see no need for personal attacks by accusing me that I don't love.

My comment concerning the thread being political was concerning the discussion, not the OP.

[Htom Sirveaux]

I realize I'm a very selfish, terrible, horrible person because I really don't want to sell these things.

See, that's what I was getting at a few posts back. We shouldn't be moved to action because we feel like horrible people now. Nor should we smash all our electronic gizmos because it might make us feel better about ourselves. It's the difference between conviction and shame. I refuse to feel shamed and I don't feel a strong conviction to "try to put this situation right."

[Mr. SmartyPants]

Honestly, I think it's rather confusing trying to figure out what to buy or what not to buy or not buying anything at all. God didn't call us to "fix" the world]
I extremely beg to differ. The sermon on the mount is rather clear of our responsibility as a lover of all people. Not what I'm saying. The Bible says so.

It's quite true that there is sin in the world. And no matter what actions of buying or not buying we take, sin will sprout up again and again. So, instead of not buying this or that, pray for these people in Africa; the oppressed and the oppressors. Love them all and ask God to save them. Go to the source of the issue; the sinner's heart. And only God can reach that; therefore praying is the better option, I think.

Then we might as well stop donating to charity and work at soup kitchens! We might as well stop aiding in disaster relief! God will heal the Haitians in their recent disaster! We don't need to do anything about it, then? We should instead pray... other people to take action to help others? Instead of praying for other people to work towards good, why don't WE that person? If we can do even something, then we should, because we are to embody love.

I'm gonna quote Dr. King from his Letter from a Birmingham jail and I absolutely dare everyone to read the excerpt:

We know through painful experience that freedom is never voluntarily given by the oppressor]Was not Jesus an extremist for love: "Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you." Was not Amos an extremist for justice: "Let justice roll down like waters and righteousness like an ever flowing stream." Was not Paul an extremist for the Christian gospel: "I bear in my body the marks of the Lord Jesus." Was not Martin Luther an extremist: "Here I stand; I cannot do otherwise, so help me God." And John Bunyan: "I will stay in jail to the end of my days before I make a butchery of my conscience." And Abraham Lincoln: "This nation cannot survive half slave and half free." And Thomas Jefferson: "We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal . . ." So the question is not whether we will be extremists, but what kind of extremists we will be. Will we be extremists for hate or for love? Will we be extremists for the preservation of injustice or for the extension of justice?[/i] In that dramatic scene on Calvary's hill three men were crucified. We must never forget that all three were crucified for the same crime--the crime of extremism. Two were extremists for immorality, and thus fell below their environment. The other, Jesus Christ, was an extremist for love, truth and goodness, and thereby rose above his environment. Perhaps the South, the nation and the world are in dire need of creative extremists.

Justice too long delayed is justice denied.

Jesus NEVER, EVER, EVER preached "Prayer without action", as you are proposing. He actively loved humanity and you should too.

Also, this topic borders on a political issue, and the discussion of which is not allowed on CAA at present.

I never realized that spreading awareness about the DEATH and RAPE of other individuals at the expense of our buying habits was "too political" for CAA. I'm sorry if I think awareness on this issue is more important than your version of the rules here.

[Mr. SmartyPants]

Yes, it is clear you read my post wrong. I see no need for personal attacks by accusing me that I don't love.

You said: "So, instead of not buying this or that, pray for these people in Africa".

It seems like you're saying "instead of doing, let's pray". But this is absolutely contrary to the message of Christ. Christ said we have to do 100% of both.

My comment concerning the thread being political was concerning the discussion, not the OP.

But no. The discussion is about people dying and suffering at, at the end, our own expense. I don't really see how this is downright political.

[Nate]

Wait how did Mary respond to Ryan's post before he posted it...?

[MasterDias]

I want to stress calm here and hope that cool heads prevail. Suddenly deciding to sell all of your game systems within only a few hours is a knee-jerk, emotional reaction. At the very least, please spend plenty of time considering it carefully.

Also, it still hasn't actually been established that Nintendo is complicit in Congo atrocities...

[Cognitive Gear]

I do have to say I find this whole subject very distressing and upsetting and I don't know where I stand on the conflict itself. I realize I'm a very selfish, terrible, horrible person because I really don't want to sell these things. Probably everything I own has the potential to have hurt someone in their making as I don't know where they came from.

Oh, don't be too harsh on yourself. Honestly, the realization of this is one of the hardest parts, because it does make you feel like a horrible person, and it's pretty overwhelming to think about where the stuff you buy comes from, and how to find out.

But it all gets easier. You shouldn't feel like a horrible person for things you weren't aware you were doing. I do think that you should use that emotion to drive yourself to do what you can, though!

[Mr. SmartyPants]

Wait how did Mary respond to Ryan's post before he posted it...?

I separated the two to make it less cluttered.

Also, it still hasn't actually been established that Nintendo is complicit in Congo atrocities...

There is no evidence. Just silence. And the possibility is real and it is happening. And because there is no assurances, I believe that nobody should buy from these companies. Until they openly do something about it, I will uphold this position. The fact that it is happening means that there are suppliers that are still buying conflict minerals. The fact that there is a market means that it's somehow getting into consumers hands through some corporate mean.

[TopazRaven]

Even if we do sell all our game systems though, aren't we still supporting these companies? We are giving the game to someone else, who perhaps has no idea about the conflict themselves, and they will then use the systems and buy games for them. Thus still supporting the company as was stated before.

[Furen]

Wait how did Mary respond to Ryan's post before he posted it...?

not so much that as reiteration for this topic

not sure how many times I've said this, but though I don't go and sell my stuff or buy stuff that entertains me for massive long periods, doesn't mean I'm opposed about this topic.

[Cognitive Gear]

I want to stress calm here and hope that cool heads prevail. Suddenly deciding to sell all of your game systems within only a few hours is a knee-jerk, emotional reaction. At the very least, please spend plenty of time considering it carefully.

Also, it still hasn't actually been established that Nintendo is complicit in Congo atrocities...

This isn't an issue that I just became aware of recently. It's been an ongoing process over the past two years of my life.

As a Christian it is my conviction to limit suffering in any way that God has given me the ability to. As a matter of good fortune, I was born in the United States. This offers me a lot of advantages, and the smallest of those is to give up some of my many luxuries to take a moral stand against the suffering experienced by those in other, less fortunate countries.

[Midori]

Honestly guys, we appear to be opposed on a front we should be united on. But I think this is a topic that lends itself to extremism of all sorts. Please be careful.

Should I stop buying all electronics in order to help prevent abuse? Just about all electronics contain parts that come from irreputable work environments. There's a lot more than electronics, too. Shoes, clothes, and indeed many things that we take for granted in the modern world are made by child laborers working for little pay. Should I give up all of the things I have in our comfortable country, because people in other countries have less? Will that actually make any difference?

On the other hand, should I just keep on buying nice stuff as normal and ignore the suffering of millions? That hardly seems right either. Materialism, despite being in the American spirit, is contrary to the optimal lifestyle of a Christian.

Is there a balance we can strike? Is it even the same for everyone?

A rich guy once wanted to follow Jesus. Jesus told him that before he could, he had to give away all his money and give it to the poor. It is easier for a camel to enter the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.

So, should we all give away all of our riches? I think the answer is different for every person. Some of us can use those riches to further the kingdom of God. We should all give at least some to the church so their work can be done properly in the world. Doesn't matter whether you're refusing to buy something so that someone else can have a better life or you're giving money to the church; the two acts are equivalent.

I read a quote from C.S.Lewis a while back (Gee, I'm always quoting the guy...). He said: "No one can settle how much we ought to give. The only safe rule is to give more than we can spare."


Now friends, the above is an entirely different argument from whether buying electronics from certain companies harms people. I do not have a definite answer to that because I have not researched a whole lot. Just keep your minds open. Do not immediately assume that everything you read is true. Also do not assume everything you read is a hoax. Both actions would be unwise. Instead look into it carefully and decide for yourselves; or if you cannot decide yourself, speak to someone you trust about it and follow their advice. If a blind man leads a blind man, they'll both fall into a pit.


So now that I have completely dodged the original question, feel free to discuss it more among yourselves, but avoid bickering. You have to take the attitude(s) I described above. Be selfless...but be sly.