Conflict Minerals: Consider this before buying a new electronic product.

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Conflict Minerals: Consider this before buying a new electronic product.

Postby Mr. SmartyPants » Thu Jan 27, 2011 6:13 pm

I've been doing some research online and I found out something which I want to bring awareness to. Before you go ahead and buy a new Nintendo 3DS or Sony NGP, please read this.

What's been concerning me as of late are conflict minerals. And this is a relatively new and important topic and as Christians, I believe this is important to keep in mind.

So what are Conflict Minerals?
Conflict Minerals are substances such as gold, tin, tantalum, and tungsten which are collected, distributed, and sold by means of human rights abuses. These include unethical human enslavement, systematic rape of women, and forcing children to become soldiers all in order to sell minerals at lower and more competitive prices. These occurrences are very common around areas such as Africa, especially in the Republic of Congo.

Once these minerals are collected, they are sold to suppliers who collect such minerals (both fair trade as well as conflict) for trade purposes. Here they end up getting mixed with other minerals from other sources (fair trade and conflict) and are sold to companies all over the world who make electronic devices which people like you and I purchase.

It's identical to the concept of blood diamonds. If you've seen the movie than you know what I'm talking about. If you have not seen it, then I highly recommend it. Thankfully in 2003 the Kimberly Process which has significantly curbed down blood diamond collection and redistribution. But there is no legislation to stop conflict minerals. But progress is happening!

Also, from wikipedia:
Conflict minerals refer to minerals mined in conditions of armed conflict and human rights abuses, notably in the eastern provinces of the Democratic Republic of the Congo, by the Congolese National Army and various armed rebel groups, including the Democratic Forces for the Liberation of Rwanda. The profits from the sale of these minerals finance continued fighting in the Second Congo War, and control of lucrative mines becomes a focus of the fighting as well. The most commonly mined minerals are cassiterite, wolframite, coltan, and gold, which are extracted from the Eastern Congo, and passed through a variety of intermediaries before being purchased by multinational electronics companies. These minerals are essential in the manufacture of a variety of devices, like mobile phones, laptops, and MP3 players.

Mines in eastern Congo are often located far from populated areas in remote, insecure and inaccessible regions. A recent study by IPIS indicates that armed groups are present at more than 50% of mining sites. At many sites, armed groups illegally tax, extort, and coerce civilians to work. Miners, including children, work up to 48-hour shifts amidst mudslides and tunnel collapses that kill many. The groups are often affiliated with rebel groups, or with the Congolese National Army, but both use rape and violence to control the local population.


More information:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conflict_minerals
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conflict_diamonds


How does this affect me?
This effects us as consumers because minerals such as gold, tin, tantalum, and tungsten are all very common inside electronic devices. They are necessary in the circuitry of common devices such as cellphones, laptops, video game systems, television, cars, etc. Currently, there is very little regulation so you can't really know if products you buy were made and sold at the expense of human lives.

The Enough Project (http://www.enoughproject.org/publications/getting-conflict-free) has recently released an article outlining 21 companies which have been progressing forward towards freeing their products of conflict minerals. So far the companies that have been putting the most effort include:

1. HP
2. Intel
3. Motorola
4. Nokia
5. Microsoft
6. Dell

By contrast, the companies that have put very little progress include:

16. SanDisk
17. Toshiba

And companies that have put absolutely no visible progress whatsoever include
18. Panasonic
19. Canon
20. Sharp
21. Nintendo

Interestingly enough these last four are all Japanese companies.

Companies which have had some progress but could do better (middle tier) include Apple, Acer, Samsung, LG, Sony, IBM, etc.


Obviously this directly affects us. Buying products made of conflict minerals means that we are indirectly funding and supporting genocide, rape, and child soldiers. And this is entirely unethical.


So what can we do?
On a grand scale, there isn't that much we can do. But there are two important things which we can do which can have a big effect:

1. Support companies which promote fair trade and boycott companies that are silent. Watch what you purchase. Refuse to buy products by companies like Nintendo and Canon until they prove that they are making genuine progress to rid their products of conflict minerals! I know the Nintendo 3DS and Sony NGP are both getting a lot of press now, but please consider the costs and benefits. Cause it's not just costing you money, but it could very well be costing someone's life. Is entertainment worth the possibility of you indirectly funding genocide and rape? Please consider these possibilities and costs and benefits if you still really want to buy a product. Or consider alternatives. Maybe consider an xbox 360 instead of a Nintendo Wii. If you need a new laptop for school, consider a Dell instead of Apple or Toshiba. Get an HP printer instead of a Canon printer. After all, all companies are only making products because we buy them.

2. Spread awareness. Tell your friends, family, and parents. Ask your pastor if they can bring this topic up in church. Write to your local politicians and even lobby for them to make this an important issue (especially for small and/or local businesses). Post links about the Enough Project on Facebook!

No doubt this is a fallen world, and there will always be evil in the world. But the worst thing any of us can do is be absolutely complacent about it. Do what you can to minimize suffering as much as possible. Christ told us to help the poor, orphaned, and windowed. Not only do we have an individual responsibility to friends, family, and God, but we also have a social responsibility of love and justice as well. We as Christians have an ethical responsibility to put our own selfish desires of wanting a new printer of video game system aside and work towards the betterment of humanity REGARDLESS of how futile it may be. Whether or not it works doesn't matter because love NEVER EVER depends on the hope of results. Loving actions happen for the sake of love itself because God loves us. And to be complacent on the issue because it may not "work in the end" is, I argue, absolutely CONTRARY to the message of Christ.

Links:
http://www.raisehopeforcongo.org/content/initiatives/conflict-minerals
http://conflictminerals.org/
http://www.enoughproject.org/publications/getting-conflict-free (their study)
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Postby ShiroiHikari » Thu Jan 27, 2011 6:22 pm

That's nice and all but me not buying a cell phone or a 3DS isn't going to put food on these downtrodden peoples' tables, either. I do think it's wrong that this kind of thing still goes on, but I fail to see how boycotting products made with "conflict minerals" will really help anyone.

I'm not trying to be complacent, but if we want to stop this sort of thing from happening, it's a lot more complicated than just not buying a 3DS. In fact, I don't think it can ever really be completely stopped because, guess what, human beings are generally d-bags and always will be.

Also the situation in places like the "Republic" of Congo is complicated as well, and there's not a heck of a lot we can do about it from the outside.
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Postby Mr. SmartyPants » Thu Jan 27, 2011 6:28 pm

It's little actions that happen together which produce a larger outcome. There has already been monumental progress done with conflict diamonds, and similar progress can happen with conflict minerals. So many big things have occurred because of small things, you know? The Civil Rights movement started because one woman was tired and refused to go with the status quo.

And of course there's complexity towards solving this issue. And that's all happening! Global organizations have been progressing towards this problem! But it really boils down to the responsibility of the consumer. And this is why I promote buying from HP or Motorola instead of some other companies. By you buying something like a Canon printer or a Nintendo Wii, your money has gone to Canon or Nintendo, a company which may have gotten their minerals by potentially unethical practices.

Places like Congo, Sierra Leon, and Liberia no doubt have very complicated issues. But having such a defeatist or futile mindset does not produce change.

It's small, but do what you can. Even a small action is aiding for a larger thing. And by this you are doing good to the world!
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Postby Htom Sirveaux » Thu Jan 27, 2011 6:49 pm

Edit: On second thoughts, you don't need to hear me waving my negative opinion around. My hackles always stand up in the presence of my arch-nemesis Idealism.
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Postby Furen » Thu Jan 27, 2011 6:56 pm

Htom Sirveaux (post: 1454942) wrote:I'll never be convinced that that sort of thing can be affected in any way by a handful of people being careful what they buy. Call me Mr. Negative, but there you have it. PETA members still think they can stop everyone eating meat, but you see how far their ideals get them.


I am in unison of this statement, doesn't mean I don't want to see this not happen, but I see that it is highly unlikely that this will work out.
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Postby Cognitive Gear » Thu Jan 27, 2011 6:59 pm

It may not change the world, but making the small effort to not buy products made through unethical means isn't exactly going to hurt you, either.

No doubt this is a complicated issue, but I really don't see how we can continue to put our money to indirectly support suffering. Especially once we know. I am very familiar with the heavy feeling that nothing we do will make any difference in these issues, but that isn't the only goal in not supporting these companies. The other goal is to strive to cause no suffering through our own living. The companies may still make money, and may still continue in their ways, but I feel that the very least I can do is not contribute to it.

It's an inconvenience, at worst. Over the last two years, I have been slowly moving towards only buying things that are suffering free. It has been difficult, and there are a few problems that I still haven't solved. But at least I am doing my best to limit the suffering of sweatshop laborers.

76% of Americans are Christian. If one quarter of the Christian population suddenly decided to stop buying products that are made unethically, what do you think the result would be?

Like it or not, when you buy products made with sweatshop labor, or through abusive methods, you are contributing to and encouraging those things. I, for one, won't be letting my own apathetic, cynical attitude contribute to harming people who don't even have heaters in their homes.
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Postby Mr. SmartyPants » Thu Jan 27, 2011 7:08 pm

Furen (post: 1454943) wrote:I am in unison of this statement, doesn't mean I don't want to see this not happen, but I see that it is highly unlikely that this will work out.

The sad part is that beliefs like these are precisely WHY progress does not happen. As Cog said, what if even a FOURTH of the Christian population of the United States, a faith that emphasizes on easing the suffering of others, stopped buying from companies that make money by means of suffering?

Maybe you consider yourself cynical. Maybe you consider myself an idealist. That doesn't matter. We as Christians have an ethical responsibility to put our own selfish desires of wanting a new printer of video game system aside and work towards the betterment of humanity REGARDLESS of how futile it may be. Whether or not it works doesn't matter because love NEVER EVER depends on the hope of results! Loving actions happen for the sake of love itself.

There are people who don't even have clean drinking water. And having a fatalistic attitude is absolutely contrary to the message of Christ's love. Jesus NEVER went "oh this is hopeless and this won't work regardless of how good our intentions are" and neither should we.
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Postby MasterDias » Thu Jan 27, 2011 7:08 pm

My main issue is the way the site/organization assesses companies. Just because Nintendo did not reply to their letters, or gave a short reply, doesn't really mean anything.
Suggesting a boycott based on that is rather flimsy.
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Postby Mr. SmartyPants » Thu Jan 27, 2011 7:12 pm

You're right. Just because they did not reply does not mean they don't mean that they are using conflict minerals. But it is the fact that there is no assurance of no unethical practices going on with those companies. This is why I boycott them. Until they start responding positively, THEN I will be more lax.
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Postby Davidizer13 » Thu Jan 27, 2011 7:13 pm

I heard about this a while back in relation to tantalum (also known as coltan), which is used in transistors and other electronic parts, but didn't really know how much it extended to other elements. Only about 10% of the world's tantalum comes from the DRC, which makes this even more tragic because it's so preventable. From what I've heard, there's a gold rush going on in the country, and with a lack of regulation on how to mine and who's doing it, they're doing things like spraying hillsides down with cyanide solutions to get at the gold, and since gold is often associated with toxic metals such as lead, mercury and cadmium, they're turning that part of the country into a Superfund site, basically.

The next conflict minerals will probably be the ones bearing rare earth elements (which, comparatively, aren't that rare - they just don't usually form minerals on their own, but instead appear in traces in many others). They're used in electronics, electric/hybrid vehicles and other high-tech applications; for example, neodymium and gadolinium magnets are found in things like hard drives and earbud headphones. Between increasing demand and China's threatened embargoes on them, there's going to be a huge push to find alternate sources for them, no matter the social cost.
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Postby TopazRaven » Thu Jan 27, 2011 7:16 pm

Ouch! I really had no idea this was going on! It figures I need a new computer and my best friend's boyfriend suggested an Mac Laptop, I have an uncanny habit for picking up viruses for seem reason and he said Apple computers are better protected then HP. Not to mention he could get me a deal. I don't know what to do now. You said Apple is in least having some progress doesn't it? I suppose I will definitly have to consider just getting a Dell now...along with a very powerful anti-virus!

Edit: I never really thought about the suffering people might go through to make the things I own. How do you know if some of your clothes/game systems/other electronics and such are made by companies that promote human suffering?
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Postby Htom Sirveaux » Thu Jan 27, 2011 7:17 pm

My attitude on this and certain other subjects is not meant to be fatalistic or pessimistic, just realistic. I'm sorry, but like I said a couple days ago on FB, there is just no earthly hope for mankind and its devices. I honestly don't see the point.
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Postby Mr. SmartyPants » Thu Jan 27, 2011 7:24 pm

It's not realistic. It's fatalistic. Legislation on conflict diamonds have PASSED in recent years and because of public outcry, the Kimberly Process was enacted in 2003. Because of the Kimberly Process, blood diamond distribution has significantly dropped. And because of this, violence has decreased in Sierra Leon because there is less need to enslave people to mine for diamonds.

Change has happened. And I feel that past successes should act as a symbol of hope for future change. Our Christian faith tells us to hope unconditionally. Believe even when there's no substantial evidence to believe because God is that big. As Christ followers we are to EMBODY love. We must love others instead of be complacent with our own selfishness.
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Postby Nate » Thu Jan 27, 2011 7:26 pm

TopazRaven wrote:Apple computers are better protected then HP.

This isn't true, not really. It's not that Macs are protected against viruses better, it's just that the majority of viruses are not written for Macs so it's not affected by them. If you catch a Mac only virus it's still just as bad as a regular virus. And if you stay away from seedy parts of the net and have a good antivirus program installed, you're just as fine on a PC as you would be on a Mac.
Htom wrote:there is just no earthly hope for mankind and its devices. I honestly don't see the point.

While I agree with you on one level, on another level it just seems to lead to not doing what God has charged us to do. "Even if I feed that person, they'll still die, so what's the point? Even if I help this person pay their hospital bill, they're still going to die one day, so it's meaningless. Even if I don't pour this oil into this fishing pond, it'll cease to exist one day so might as well."

And while I'm as lazy as anyone else when it comes to doing what I should do, I mean, I don't volunteer at homeless shelters or donate any money to charity, the extent of this thread is "Just don't buy these products (or limit the amount you purchase)." I...I really don't see how hard it is to not buy something. If you've reached the point in your life where not spending money on unnecessary luxury items is difficult to do...I can't judge ya but I would say, might wanna step back and focus a bit. XP
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Postby Furen » Thu Jan 27, 2011 7:28 pm

Wait wait wait, you are saying my attitude for this subject isn't Christian? Because that's a pretty bold statement to make. Though moving aside from that I still don't think that it will do much.

Example: People tell others to boycott McDonalds, yet they're a multi-billion dollar company and no matter how large the amount of people there are that says it's bad for you and the "Horror stories" they have, my youth group goes there all the time if we're talking a trip somewhere.

Yes I know no one is specifically harmed in that example, that doesn't change the point that no matter how large in agreement people are, it won't change here.

EDIT: Again I should make sure I restate that I'm not disagreeing with what you put out, I'm just looking it as I would any situation, on history.
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Postby TopazRaven » Thu Jan 27, 2011 7:35 pm

Nate (post: 1454961) wrote:This isn't true, not really. It's not that Macs are protected against viruses better, it's just that the majority of viruses are not written for Macs so it's not affected by them. If you catch a Mac only virus it's still just as bad as a regular virus. And if you stay away from seedy parts of the net and have a good antivirus program installed, you're just as fine on a PC as you would be on a Mac.


That's the problem though! I don't go anywhere bad that I know of! Here, Neopets, YouTube, DA, Wikipedia, GoodReads, Amazon, Yahoo, Comcast sometimes FanFiction.net and then sometimes I look stuff up on Google about anime, health issues or history facts. Where do I keep getting them from? 0.o Anyway anti-virus suggestions by the way? My computer has Norton.

Furen (post: 1454962) wrote:Example: People tell others to boycott McDonalds, yet they're a multi-billion dollar company and no matter how large the amount of people there are that says it's bad for you and the "Horror stories" they have, my youth group goes there all the time if we're talking a trip somewhere.


I...I like McDonalds... :red:
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Postby Htom Sirveaux » Thu Jan 27, 2011 7:35 pm

Ryan wrote:Our Christian faith tells us to hope unconditionally.

Unfortunately, that's the one thing I've never gotten the hang of. I'd like to. It sounds nice. It's just really hard because it goes against my practical nature. I really wish I had your unshakeable sense of hope, but I just can't see the world the way you do. All I see is a great big messy human existence that Christ alone can fix.

Nate wrote:"Even if I feed that person, they'll still die, so what's the point? Even if I help this person pay their hospital bill, they're still going to die one day, so it's meaningless. Even if I don't pour this oil into this fishing pond, it'll cease to exist one day so might as well."

Come on, that's an obvious oversimplification.
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Postby Mr. SmartyPants » Thu Jan 27, 2011 7:37 pm

Furen (post: 1454962) wrote:Wait wait wait, you are saying my attitude for this subject isn't Christian? Because that's a pretty bold statement to make. Though moving aside from that I still don't think that it will do much.

Jesus' sermon on the mount stresses that we must love our enemies. We must love humanity. We must take care of the poor, widowed, and orphaned. We are not to bring them harm, be it directly or indirectly. Furthermore, Paul writes in 1 Corinthians that love "always hopes". It hopes unconditionally because God always loves us unconditionally (parable of the prodigal son). God is seen as the father and we are the prodigal son. But we too must, as Christians, take on the role of the father and hope for others.

I'll say it for emphasis: I believe that having a defeatist attitude towards humanity is contradictory to Christ's message. I'm no better Christian than you because I fail many times too. But I know that I try to love. And love is NEVER contingent on the aftereffects of whether or not loving worked. It loves for loves sake. Christ was the perfect embodiment of love and the fullest revelation of God unto man. He embodied love. If God unconditionally loves us and always hopes for us to love him too, than we must emulate this.

This is why, exactly, Christians must be aware that there is an aspect of social justice that is part of their faith.

Two quotes:

"Do not depend on the hope of results. You may have to face the fact that your work will be apparently worthless and even achieve no result at all, if not perhaps results opposite to what you expect. As you get used to this idea, you start more and more to concentrate not on the results, but on the value, the rightness, the truth of the work itself."
- Thomas Merton

"Love feels no burden, regards not labors, strives toward more than it attains, argues not of impossibility, since it believes that it may and can do all things. Therefore it avails for all things, and fulfills and accomplishes much where one not a lover falls and lies helpless."
-Thomas à Kempis
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Postby Ante Bellum » Thu Jan 27, 2011 7:37 pm

Topaz - I used to use AVG, I'm sure some others will have other suggestions. Also, I use Firefox with a number of add-ons (WOT and NoScript are two I recommend.).

Backing out bow before I say anything stupid, I don't know where I stand on this.
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Postby Nate » Thu Jan 27, 2011 7:40 pm

While I wouldn't go so far as to say "This is an unchristian attitude" or "You're not being the best Christian you can be if you don't do this," because I'm sure many people have said the same things about much of what I believe, I do think it's worth thinking about, and if you disagree, to have a reason why.

In other words, you have been presented with information that these products contain materials that have been known to encourage (or at least allow) the harm of fellow human beings. By not purchasing these products, you could potentially send a message to companies to discontinue obtaining the materials from those sources, and perhaps lessen the suffering of those human beings.

So then, what is the reasoning behind continuing to purchase them? While there are many good answers to that question, I think the problem is casually dismissing the issue by going "Whatever I don't care" because that's not an attitude we as Christians should have. Likewise, "I really like those products" isn't particularly a satisfying answer either, as we are supposed to deny ourselves things we really like as part of a Christian walk, as those things we like may be sinful/harmful, yes?

Again, there ARE valid reasons for choosing not to take part in this, I think, but make sure that you have a good reason, and aren't just going "I don't care" or trying to ignore it or make it into a non-issue.
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Postby Mr. SmartyPants » Thu Jan 27, 2011 7:45 pm

Htom Sirveaux (post: 1454965) wrote:Unfortunately, that's the one thing I've never gotten the hang of. I'd like to. It sounds nice. It's just really hard because it goes against my practical nature. I really wish I had your unshakeable sense of hope, but I just can't see the world the way you do. All I see is a great big messy human existence that Christ alone can fix.

The holy spirit empowers us, my friend. And I believe that Christ can fix the world. But he commanded us to do our part. It's clear in the sermon on the mount.
Come on, that's an obvious oversimplification.

Maybe, but it's still the exact same principle. There's just now a middle-man. There are now three or four degrees instead of just one or two. I will argue that Nate's analogy still perfectly works.
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Postby Nate » Thu Jan 27, 2011 7:45 pm

Topaz wrote:My computer has Norton.

Wow, I'm sorry. That's single-handedly one of the worst anti-virus programs you can own. I'm not qualified to give out an opinion on this, and your answers from others will vary depending on whether or not you want a free or paid software program.
Come on, that's an obvious oversimplification.

Is it? I'm sorry if it is, because then I misunderstood what you're saying. I took it to mean "Even if I buy these things, it doesn't matter because these people will be hurt/oppressed anyway." I apologize for misunderstanding you, then, but that prompts me to ask, what exactly were you saying then?
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Postby TopazRaven » Thu Jan 27, 2011 7:47 pm

I just have a question. I'm afraid I already own a PS2, PSP and DS. Should I stop buying the games for these systems to then? As much as I like the new games that come out, I guess I could always just watch walkthroughs for them on YouTube. I also decided I will get a Dell instead of an Apple, I've always had HP/Dell anyway.

Nate (post: 1454974) wrote:Wow, I'm sorry. That's single-handedly one of the worst anti-virus programs you can own. I'm not qualified to give out an opinion on this, and your answers from others will vary depending on whether or not you want a free or paid software program.


It figures! It comes free with my subcription of Comcast. I don't have enough money to buy an expensive anti-virus program. I suppose McAfee isn't much better? My mom has that on her laptop.
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Postby Nate » Thu Jan 27, 2011 7:52 pm

I'm no expert but I think CDs aren't made with these materials (correct me if I'm wrong though) so the games probably aren't an issue, just the systems themselves. However DS carts I'm not too sure about, since the carts do contain circuitry and the like. I don't know about that one. It may be difficult to determine, especially since Nintendo was one of the companies that didn't give any information (and on top of that, the American branch of Nintendo may be getting their materials from a different source, if indeed the DS carts use these materials).
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Postby ShiroiHikari » Thu Jan 27, 2011 7:54 pm

This might be a little off-topic but I think it's a bad idea for people to start comparing their own good works to the good works of others. Just because a person isn't a big time social activist or a missionary in a foreign land doesn't mean they don't do good works. We shouldn't do good works or acts of kindness so we can have merit badges to wear. We should do those things because it's what we were called to do as Christians. And while I don't do as much as some, I do help the people around me when I can.

I do want to see this sort of thing stop, but I think there are other ways to do it, that's all. Like writing to these companies and expressing your concerns. When you don't buy a company's product, they don't make money, and that hurts people too. Not as much as these people are hurting, obviously, but think of it this way: What if you owned a bakery, and claims that your product contained poison started circulating? Then people would stop buying your product, and there goes your livelihood. I suppose you could just go get another job, but still.

I dunno. I suppose I'm trying to walk the line between idealism and cynicism.
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Postby Furen » Thu Jan 27, 2011 7:55 pm

TopazRaven (post: 1454964) wrote:I...I like McDonalds... :red:



This is where I want to say case and point, if you answer yes to the question "Have you ever been told that it's not a good place to be/eat?"

I'm not being ignorant on the subject, I'm not going to go buy everything that comes out from only the non responsive companies, but I'm not just going to boycott Nintendo (or who ever) if they didn't respond either, sure, I would try to get them to agree, but I'm not going to off a company for things that may harm their business. (and yes, adding campaigns for companies are very expensive, so I see why they may not be vocal.)

To get this across, I dislike this as much as many of you, but I am also looking at the other points, like it creates jobs, may be bad conditions, but they agree, even if they don't like it.
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Postby Cognitive Gear » Thu Jan 27, 2011 7:55 pm

TopazRaven (post: 1454976) wrote:I just have a question. I'm afraid I already own a PS2, PSP and DS. Should I stop buying the games for these systems to then? As much as I like the new games that come out, I guess I could always just watch walkthroughs for them on YouTube. I also decided I will get a Dell instead of an Apple, I've always had HP anyway.


One way I have found to avoid supporting companies who do this sort of thing is to buy things used. I buy most of my clothing at thrift stores these days for this very reason. Just be sure that you are okay with giving your money to the company or person you buy the thing from. Do your research and be aware of where your money is going as best you can!
[font="Tahoma"][SIZE="2"]"It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things."

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Postby Mr. SmartyPants » Thu Jan 27, 2011 7:56 pm

Nate (post: 1454979) wrote:I'm no expert but I think CDs aren't made with these materials (correct me if I'm wrong though) so the games probably aren't an issue, just the systems themselves. However DS carts I'm not too sure about, since the carts do contain circuitry and the like. I don't know about that one. It may be difficult to determine, especially since Nintendo was one of the companies that didn't give any information (and on top of that, the American branch of Nintendo may be getting their materials from a different source, if indeed the DS carts use these materials).

Perhaps. But buying software still is giving that company money. I could go buy a DVD of Apple OS X, but Apple is still getting my money. Thankfully they have begun looking into their supply lines. Until their practices are more assured, I won't be buying from them for a while.

I have the same problem too. I have an Apple Laptop, a Wii, and an iPhone 4. People ask me a lot if what I have is the new iPhone. Simply by owning the product and having it out in public I am supporting Apple. So what I can now tell people is "Yes this is an Apple iPhone, but I am not so sure if I am happy that I own it" and explain why. Basically say that there are contingencies to my purchase and perhaps recommend them to get a phone made by Motorola or something.
Furen (post: 1454981) wrote:To get this across, I dislike this as much as many of you, but I am also looking at the other points, like it creates jobs, may be bad conditions, but they agree, even if they don't like it.

But this is not about people getting jobs. This is about people being violently enslaved against their will to work for no pay. This is about thousands upon thousands of women getting raped as a method of subjugation. This is about children being forced into guerrilla para-military groups that repeat the cycle of violence and rape to others.

These aren't sweatshops. This is desecration on humanity. People are not making ANY money and there is zero regard for human life. If you haven't seen the movie Blood Diamond, I strongly urge you to do so.
ShiroiHikari (post: 1454980) wrote:This might be a little off-topic but I think it's a bad idea for people to start comparing their own good works to the good works of others. Just because a person isn't a big time social activist or a missionary in a foreign land doesn't mean they don't do good works. We shouldn't do good works or acts of kindness so we can have merit badges to wear. We should do those things because it's what we were called to do as Christians. And while I don't do as much as some, I do help the people around me when I can.

This is missing the point, Shiroi. It's not about what amounts of works people do. It's about embodying the love of Christ and knowing what ethical responsibilities come with embodying His love.
I do want to see this sort of thing stop, but I think there are other ways to do it, that's all. Like writing to these companies and expressing your concerns. When you don't buy a company's product, they don't make money, and that hurts people too. Not as much as these people are hurting, obviously, but think of it this way: What if you owned a bakery, and claims that your product contained poison started circulating? Then people would stop buying your product, and there goes your livelihood. I suppose you could just go get another job, but still.

You have a good point. And this is why boycotting of products is temporary until progress occurs. It's a boycott until a company acknowledges a problem and thinks of creative solutions perform more ethically.
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Postby Htom Sirveaux » Thu Jan 27, 2011 8:02 pm

Come to think of it, it's kind of moot for me personally since I don't buy a whole lot of elctronics beyond games, DVDs and music. I suppose at this point if I actually wanted to buy a 3DS or Sony NGP, I might not just out of a conviction born of guilty conscience.

It's kind of like organizations such as Compassion International. I don't make a habit of donating to it, but still every time I see their commercials, I almost hear the guy going, "Oh, not gonna donate, huh? Very well, just fall asleep in your warm comfy chair and forget all about the poor, starving Ethiopian kids. You selfish, hateful pig."
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Postby Nate » Thu Jan 27, 2011 8:03 pm

Furen wrote:This is where I want to say case and point, if you answer yes to the question "Have you ever been told that it's not a good place to be/eat?"

No, that's not case and point, as they're not comparable. If McDonald's was beating a child or enslaving people every time you ate a hamburger, then it would be. McDonald's is bad in the sense that the food isn't entirely healthy, which can be offset by regular exercise and a balanced diet. In other words, eating a McDonald's burger isn't hurting anyone but you, and if you treat your body right, it doesn't even really hurt you.

This is an issue that's entirely different, as purchasing these products enables human rights to be violated. McDonald's does not violate any human rights, so you have not won the argument if they like eating at McDonald's despite knowing that it's not the best for them. You haven't made any sort of consistent point at all.
I'm not going to off a company for things that may harm their business.

Why not? How far do you take that? Pepsi harms Coca-Cola's sales, right? So if Coca-Cola blew up a Pepsi factory, they're just doing what it takes to get rid of harm to their business. Would you still buy Coca-Cola after that? You may say "That's different," but how? The Pepsi factory is harming their business, right?

Also, "purchase these materials from a source that does not violate human rights" is hardly, HARDLY a harmful thing. In fact, it's less harmful, because less human beings will be harmed.
it creates jobs, may be bad conditions, but they agree, even if they don't like it.

Slaves kind of CAN'T express dislike of their condition. Also "being a slave" is hardly a job. Unless you're talking about the people who work at these companies and not the people digging up the materials, in which case, I don't think "Well it creates jobs" is a particularly compelling defense of rape, enslavement, and child labor. Mafia hitman and drug dealer are jobs too, but I'd hope you wouldn't say "Well they do bad things, but they're jobs, so we shouldn't try and stop them."
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