The Day Of Judgement

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Postby ShiroiHikari » Sun Dec 19, 2010 10:21 am

Davidizer13 (post: 1444591) wrote:Someone has said that people make one of two mistakes with Revelation: some people make too much out of it, poring over it and trying to understand it in order to find out what's going to happen in the future, to the detriment of the rest of the Bible. Others ignore it completely - there are some Syrian Christian sects that say it's not part of the Bible. But really, both of these arguments come down to the fact that it's really, really hard to understand, written in a coded language that would have made more sense if we were living in those times. This was a deliberate choice on John's part, I believe - lots of symbols in there point towards the Roman Empire being this enemy of the Christians discussed in the book, and rightfully so at the time.

Personally, I tend towards thinking less of the book. There was a whole genre of stories similar to Revelation at the time, known as Jewish apocalypses. These books were, like Revelation, stories describing the end of the world, the sundry judgments that would take place, and the eventual salvation of God's people, written in symbolic language. It'd be like a romance novel: you expect certain elements in it, like the characters' meeting, falling in love, the troubles that prevent them from being together, and their eventual marriage. Revelation is covering the bases of that genre, and it might not be as unique as people claim it to be. It was written specifically to the churches it describes at the beginning of the book, like Paul's letters, and so it would have some special meaning to them that we're missing by not living in those times.

Still, despite these issues, and whether or not the events that occur in it are going to happen at the end times, Revelation is primarily a message of hope. Despite all the disasters, judgements, etc., that it talks about, God is ultimately in control and His will will win out in the end, no matter what may come.


This more or less covers how I feel about it.
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Postby Nate » Mon Jan 03, 2011 1:32 pm

I'm bumping this thread because oddly enough, I saw on Yahoo today the reason why Topaz made this thread.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110103/ap_on_re/us_rel_apocalypse_soon

So yeah it's basically a small group of people that said they have read the Bible and mathematically calculated when the world will end. Of course, they miss the point of where people have done that for ages in the past. They get around that by saying "It would be like telling the Wright brothers that every other attempt to fly has failed, so you shouldn't even try."

Even more interesting is this statement: "If May 21 passes and I'm still here, that means I wasn't saved. Does that mean God's word is inaccurate or untrue? Not at all." Unfortunately whoever did the interview failed to ask him what will happen when November rolls around and he's still here (since he says the end of time will occur in October of this year).

I'm not sure how the seven years of tribulation that Rapture-endorsers are all about works into this. He says May 21 is the Rapture, and then October is the end of time. That's definitely not seven years, unless he's saying we're already in the seven year tribulation, which would be a pretty weird claim to make, and besides, why would it be five months before the end of everything?

I feel sorry for these people though. They of course will get around the May 21 date by saying "Oh no we weren't saved!" which of course is baffling on its own, but then once October is over, then what? They'll have bills and problems that they didn't plan for, and it's going to be pretty painful for them I think. I pity them. :\
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Postby Isaac » Mon Jan 03, 2011 2:15 pm

Nate (post: 1448492) wrote:I'm bumping this thread because oddly enough, I saw on Yahoo today the reason why Topaz made this thread.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110103/ap_on_re/us_rel_apocalypse_soon

So yeah it's basically a small group of people that said they have read the Bible and mathematically calculated when the world will end. Of course, they miss the point of where people have done that for ages in the past. They get around that by saying "It would be like telling the Wright brothers that every other attempt to fly has failed, so you shouldn't even try."

Even more interesting is this statement: "If May 21 passes and I'm still here, that means I wasn't saved. Does that mean God's word is inaccurate or untrue? Not at all." Unfortunately whoever did the interview failed to ask him what will happen when November rolls around and he's still here (since he says the end of time will occur in October of this year).

I'm not sure how the seven years of tribulation that Rapture-endorsers are all about works into this. He says May 21 is the Rapture, and then October is the end of time. That's definitely not seven years, unless he's saying we're already in the seven year tribulation, which would be a pretty weird claim to make, and besides, why would it be five months before the end of everything?

I feel sorry for these people though. They of course will get around the May 21 date by saying "Oh no we weren't saved!" which of course is baffling on its own, but then once October is over, then what? They'll have bills and problems that they didn't plan for, and it's going to be pretty painful for them I think. I pity them. :\



*shakes head* Yeah, I hear you... :\ Christ said we can't be certain of the time of his return.

Matthew 24:36 (NIV):
"[color="Red"]No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father[/color]."

42 "...[color="Red"]Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come[/color]."


Also, He goes on and reiterates it further in the following chapter.
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Postby TopazRaven » Mon Jan 03, 2011 2:27 pm

Well, I was pleasntly surprised to see this one pop up again. Yep, not that exact article I don't think, but these are definitly the people I was talking about. I've decided I'm not going to take any of these 'end of the world' theories seriously. I don't think this is what God wants us to spend our time on Earth doing honestly.
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Postby Rusty Claymore » Mon Jan 03, 2011 2:46 pm

weirdguessingpeople wrote:"It would be like telling the Wright brothers that every other attempt to fly has failed, so you shouldn't even try."

...yes, except God didn't specifically tell them that flying was a waste of time. XP
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Postby mechana2015 » Mon Jan 03, 2011 4:00 pm

Nate (post: 1448492) wrote:I'm not sure how the seven years of tribulation that Rapture-endorsers are all about works into this. He says May 21 is the Rapture, and then October is the end of time. That's definitely not seven years, unless he's saying we're already in the seven year tribulation, which would be a pretty weird claim to make, and besides, why would it be five months before the end of everything?



There is a school of thought that believes in a mid-tribulation rapture, which fits their statements. I'm a bit worried that this is gonna turn into a suicide cult come May or October though... these sorts of deep seated beliefs usually don't end up doing well when things don't go as 'calculated'.
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Postby TopazRaven » Mon Jan 03, 2011 4:16 pm

mechana2015 (post: 1448536) wrote:There is a school of thought that believes in a mid-tribulation rapture, which fits their statements. I'm a bit worried that this is gonna turn into a suicide cult come May or October though... these sorts of deep seated beliefs usually don't end up doing well when things don't go as 'calculated'.


I certainly hope not! I'd hate to hear about so many people killing themselves over this. Should the rapture or the end really come in May and October we need to trust God will save us and bring us to Him even though we don't deserve heaven. If they where to commit suicide over this then wouldn't they be throwing away God's gift by ending their own lives like that instead of allowing Him to decide and handle their fate?
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Postby mechana2015 » Mon Jan 03, 2011 4:27 pm

Yes, but they're already ignoring a lot of the bible anyhow.
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Postby TopazRaven » Mon Jan 03, 2011 4:30 pm

True, still, I hope none of these people comit suicide. I'll be praying for them!
For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

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Postby Nanao » Mon Jan 03, 2011 4:38 pm

and this verse in particular: "but about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, but only the Father" (Matthew 24:36). if only the Father knows, is it even possible to calculate the answer?
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Postby TopazRaven » Mon Jan 03, 2011 4:41 pm

I wouldn't think so, but people still try and guess anyway it seems. We humans can be so silly.
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Postby Davidizer13 » Mon Jan 03, 2011 4:54 pm

mechana2015 (post: 1448536) wrote:I'm a bit worried that this is gonna turn into a suicide cult come May or October though... these sorts of deep seated beliefs usually don't end up doing well when things don't go as 'calculated'.


I doubt that. The Seventh-Day Adventists came out of a movement called the Millerites, who believed that Jesus would return in 1844. When He didn't, they just went, "...Huh. Well, shoot! Nothing happened on earth, so something must have happened in Heaven instead! That's why we couldn't see it," and from there came the doctrine of an ongoing judgment, where we're being judged as our name comes up in Heaven and that will continue until everyone is accounted for. (Someone can correct me on this - I have no idea if the Adventists still hold to this doctrine.) So even if it doesn't occur like they say it will, someone might be able to explain it away, or throw it out and wait for the next date to come around - the vast majority of these people will be fine.

The Millerite movement could end up being an interesting case study for this particular movement: in both cases, you've got disparate Christian groups in a loose unity around a date for the world's end and a couple charismatic figures. When 1845 rolled around, the group went its separate ways, forming denominations like SDA and the Jehovah's Witnesses (who continued to set dates for a time afterward) and leaving many others disillusioned. I don't see the effect of this newer movement as being as drastic as the first, especially seeing as this same guy also predicted that all this would occur in 1994, but you never know.
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Postby Cognitive Gear » Mon Jan 03, 2011 5:27 pm

mechana2015 (post: 1448536) wrote:There is a school of thought that believes in a mid-tribulation rapture, which fits their statements. I'm a bit worried that this is gonna turn into a suicide cult come May or October though... these sorts of deep seated beliefs usually don't end up doing well when things don't go as 'calculated'.


Yeah, but they don't always end up going horribly. Chuck Smith, the head pastor of the church I grew up in used to say (and even wrote a book about) the following:

"If I understand scripture correctly... I believe that the generation of 1948 is the last generation.... I believe the Lord could come back for His Church any time before the Tribulation starts, which would mean any time before 1981.


Clearly he had been proven to be wrong before I was born, but Calvary Chapel survived and continued to thrive.

I don't know much else about the group in the article that Nate linked, but I will say that it's perfectly possible that they could go either way. I think that other factors will end up pushing them one way or the other.
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Postby Peanut » Mon Jan 03, 2011 5:56 pm

Davidizer13 (post: 1448554) wrote:The Millerite movement could end up being an interesting case study for this particular movement: in both cases, you've got disparate Christian groups in a loose unity around a date for the world's end and a couple charismatic figures. When 1845 rolled around, the group went its separate ways, forming denominations like SDA and the Jehovah's Witnesses (who continued to set dates for a time afterward) and leaving many others disillusioned. I don't see the effect of this newer movement as being as drastic as the first, especially seeing as this same guy also predicted that all this would occur in 1994, but you never know.


Eh, I don't think it would be used as the case study unless this group persists like. The Millerites weren't the first group to predict a date for the return of Christ and they sort of weren't the last. What makes them special is that they didn't fall to what all the other groups fell to which was a general feeling of disillusionment with end time thinking and sometimes religion itself. If I'm remembering my history of end time thinking right, there was actually a shift in thought after the Millerites predicted dates passed. This branched off to either a move away from date setting or a shift in what end time event was being predicted. Dispensationalism represents this last shift and turned the focus from predicting the return of Christ to predicting the Rapture. Anyway, from the article, I don't think this group will last if they turn out to be wrong (which I think they will). I think this quote, which Nate pulled out, best sums it up:

"If May 21 passes and I'm still here, that means I wasn't saved. Does that mean God's word is inaccurate or untrue? Not at all," Warden said.


When you believe that, I'm willing to bet that you'll be disillusioned if you are wrong. They might keep going but I'm not really sure. It really wouldn't surprise me if a lot of these people who buy into this end up leaving Christianity entirely. Its amazing how prominent and important end time thinking is within Christianity.
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Postby Nate » Mon Jan 03, 2011 7:11 pm

mechana2015 wrote:There is a school of thought that believes in a mid-tribulation rapture, which fits their statements.

Five months before the end isn't halfway through 7 years. Besides, as I said, it'd be kind of a stretch to say we're halfway through the 7 year tribulation at this point anyway. I mean, while things may not be going great for people in general right now, we're definitely nowhere close to the apocalyptic imagery Revelation has.

I'm with Peanut though. The guy left himself an out when he's still around after May 21, but after October 21, he'll probably become disillusioned with Christianity and say it isn't true, because HE can't possibly be wrong. That, or he'll fall back on the same thing he said when his 1994 prediction failed which is "God is testing us" and move the date forward again because whoops, he made an error in his calculations and FOR REAL this time it's gonna be THIS date.
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Postby MasterDias » Mon Jan 03, 2011 7:18 pm

Family Radio Worldwide is the group behind this, and wiki has their history. No idea how many listeners they actually have, but they go all the way back to 1959 and are on a number of stations around the country.

From their website:
In 2 Peter 3:8, which is quoted above, Holy God reminds us that one day is as 1,000 years. Therefore, with the correct understanding that the seven days referred to in Genesis 7:4 can be understood as 7,000 years, we learn that when God told Noah there were seven days to escape worldwide destruction, He was also telling the world there would be exactly 7,000 years (one day is as 1,000 years) to escape the wrath of God that would come when He destroys the world on Judgment Day. Because Holy Infinite God is all-knowing, He knows the end from the beginning. He knew how sinful the world would become.

Seven thousand years after 4990 B.C. (the year of the Flood) is the year 2011 A.D. (our calendar).

4990 + 2011 – 1 = 7,000

[One year must be subtracted in going from an Old Testament B.C. calendar date to a New Testament A.D. calendar date because the calendar does not have a year zero.]

Thus Holy God is showing us by the words of 2 Peter 3:8 that He wants us to know that exactly 7,000 years after He destroyed the world with water in Noah’s day, He plans to destroy the entire world forever. Because the year 2011 A.D. is exactly 7,000 years after 4990 B.C. when the flood began, the Bible has given us absolute proof that the year 2011 is the end of the world during the Day of Judgment, which will come on the last day of the Day of Judgment.

Amazingly, May 21, 2011 is the 17th day of the 2nd month of the Biblical calendar of our day. Remember, the flood waters also began on the 17th day of the 2nd month, in the year 4990 B.C.


So...yeah....
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Postby TopazRaven » Mon Jan 03, 2011 7:30 pm

That's just creepy man. :lol:

Seriously though, if God Himself said no human nor angel will know the date then He obviously didn't leave clues for us in the bible. He doesn't want us to know the exact day and for good reason I'm sure. In least that's what I think.
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Postby Rusty Claymore » Mon Jan 03, 2011 8:00 pm

Ok, Holy God has a problem. It's that pesky context ruining everyone's fun again. Holy God reminds us that 1,000 years is as a day, and 1 day is as 1,000 years. So what we have here is 1,000 years to a day, times 1,000 year-day years. So the end is not going to come till 992,989 A.D. (and incase anyone quotes me on this, I may have made a mistake!!)
Oh yeah, and then this Peter guy goes on about some weird stuff for the rest of the book, things like the day of the Lord(who's he?) will come like a thief in the night. Wierd stuff. Holy God reminds us to not pay too much attention to it. XP
(SORRY! SORRY! But I just find the using an adjective as a proper noun way too funny! Especially how it's used in the present third person tense. And it's never mentioned in the quote without having some sort of descriptive action. It's almost "somebody set us up the bomb."XD)
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Postby Nate » Mon Jan 03, 2011 9:10 pm

I think it's interesting that as Rusty states, the verse ALSO says that a day is like a thousand years. The verse was saying "time has no meaning to an infinite being" and they're completely misunderstanding it. It is not literally saying 1 day = 1000 years.

Now this is what REALLY gets me:
we learn that when God told Noah there were seven days to escape worldwide destruction, He was also telling the world there would be exactly 7,000 years (one day is as 1,000 years) to escape the wrath of God that would come when He destroys the world on Judgment Day

Where in the WORLD is there any evidence for that whatsoever? That's literally pulled out of nowhere, with no Biblical support or evidence. Also, the verse in total context says, "Seven days from now I will send rain on the earth for forty days and forty nights, and I will wipe from the face of the earth every living creature I have made."

So even IF you want to interpret it as "God is telling the people in the future that it will be 7000 years until He does this again," the problem is Genesis 8:21 where God says,

"Never again will I curse the ground because of humans, even though every inclination of the human heart is evil from childhood. And never again will I destroy all living creatures, as I have done."

So in the chapter AFTER the supposed "warning" to future generations that God will do this again, God specifically says "I'll never do this again." Oh yeah, and verse 22.

"As long as the earth endures,
seedtime and harvest,
cold and heat,
summer and winter,
day and night
will never cease."

That kind of ruins the whole "October 21 will be the end of time" thing.

I'd also like to add that most Young Earthers who believe in the Flood believe in a vastly different date than he uses. He says it happened in 4990. Doing a quick Google search, Answers in Genesis (which is probably the most popular Young Earth site there is) does a mathematical breakdown of Biblical chronology and places the date of the Flood at 2304 BC +/- 11 years...so this Camping guy is putting it almost a full 3000 years earlier. While there seem to be a lot of different dates theorized for the Flood, most of them seem to be between 2300 and 2500 BC. I'm curious how he got a date so radically different from most of the other Young Earthers.
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Postby MasterDias » Mon Jan 03, 2011 11:05 pm

Nate (post: 1448617) wrote:I'd also like to add that most Young Earthers who believe in the Flood believe in a vastly different date than he uses. He says it happened in 4990. Doing a quick Google search, Answers in Genesis (which is probably the most popular Young Earth site there is) does a mathematical breakdown of Biblical chronology and places the date of the Flood at 2304 BC +/- 11 years...so this Camping guy is putting it almost a full 3000 years earlier. While there seem to be a lot of different dates theorized for the Flood, most of them seem to be between 2300 and 2500 BC. I'm curious how he got a date so radically different from most of the other Young Earthers.

Yeah, I was curious myself, so I looked around and found this and this. The second link contains basically the same Camping article I think but his dates are listed in a spreadsheet format so are a little clearer. Notably, he also dates Creation/Adam to 11013 B.C. which is almost twice as long as YEC usually does.
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Postby mechana2015 » Mon Jan 03, 2011 11:13 pm

Nate (post: 1448587) wrote:Five months before the end isn't halfway through 7 years. Besides, as I said, it'd be kind of a stretch to say we're halfway through the 7 year tribulation at this point anyway. I mean, while things may not be going great for people in general right now, we're definitely nowhere close to the apocalyptic imagery Revelation has.


Totally agreed on all points, but the 'right near the end' idea is a lot closer to mid-trib than pre-trib beliefs. There might be a post-millineal or post- trib view, but those are still off.

Nate (post: 1448587) wrote:I'm with Peanut though. The guy left himself an out when he's still around after May 21, but after October 21, he'll probably become disillusioned with Christianity and say it isn't true, because HE can't possibly be wrong. That, or he'll fall back on the same thing he said when his 1994 prediction failed which is "God is testing us" and move the date forward again because whoops, he made an error in his calculations and FOR REAL this time it's gonna be THIS date.


I think the guy is a nut or a scam artist. Or both.
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Postby Shao Feng-Li » Mon Jan 03, 2011 11:13 pm

I'm rather rusty in my eschatology, but yeah, the end of the world dates that come up crack me up.
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Postby Nate » Tue Jan 04, 2011 1:38 am

MasterDias wrote:Notably, he also dates Creation/Adam to 11013 B.C. which is almost twice as long as YEC usually does.

Right, I think most YECs put Creation at around 4000 to 6000 BC. Apparently his is longer because he says that genealogies given in the Bible don't imply a direct father-son relationship. This of course would necessitate a pushed-back date for Creation.

He says he does this to "agree with secular evidence" but the problem is it doesn't at all. If he wants to completely agree with secular evidence why isn't he just an OEC? He really gives no reason for any of the assumptions he makes, he just says "This is the way it is and these are the years" without any evidence whatsoever. It's bizarre. YECs aren't gonna agree with him because they're thinking he's putting Creation way too far back, and OECs aren't gonna agree with him because they think he's got it way too far up.
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Postby Peanut » Tue Jan 04, 2011 3:48 pm

Nate (post: 1448663) wrote:He says he does this to "agree with secular evidence" but the problem is it doesn't at all. If he wants to completely agree with secular evidence why isn't he just an OEC? He really gives no reason for any of the assumptions he makes, he just says "This is the way it is and these are the years" without any evidence whatsoever. It's bizarre. YECs aren't gonna agree with him because they're thinking he's putting Creation way too far back, and OECs aren't gonna agree with him because they think he's got it way too far up.


I'm willing to bet that his answer to that assertion would be that he does it to agree with Young Earth Creationists. The level he seems to be going to achieve a middle ground between these two groups is admirable and hilarious. Its almost too ridiculous to be true and yet it is.
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Postby Nate » Tue Jan 04, 2011 4:18 pm

That's the problem though. XD YECs don't agree with him. The YECs take Genesis at face value, which is why they say that "yom" is a literal 24-hour day. Meaning that they also take the genealogies at face value too, and would have just as much of an issue with him saying "begat" doesn't mean an immediate father-son relationship as they do with people using "yom" to mean any indeterminate amount of time.
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Postby TopazRaven » Tue Jan 04, 2011 5:28 pm

http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_thelookout/20110103/ts_yblog_thelookout/massive-bird-fish-kills-in-arkansas-leave-many-scratching-heads

I'm sure events like these aren't helping to convince people otherwise either. Poor birds and fishies.
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Postby KhakiBlueSocks » Tue Jan 04, 2011 8:23 pm

[font="Trebuchet MS"][SIZE="4"][color="RoyalBlue"]Okay, so if the world is gonna come to an end, should I reschedule my vacation time I had scheduled for June? I mean, I don't think I want to be at work during the Second Coming. Imagine that phone call:

"Okay ma'am, I need you to press the Start key--oh, I'm sorry ma'am. The Rapture is currently occurring so I will be forced to release this call. Thank you for calling AT&T, we do appreciate your business and you have a great eternity."[/color][/SIZE][/font]

Seriously though, if God Himself said no human nor angel will know the date then He obviously didn't leave clues for us in the bible.


[font="Trebuchet MS"][SIZE="4"][color="RoyalBlue"]Yeah, I really don't think the Almighty wants us playing "Blues Clues" with something like this.
[/color][/SIZE][/font]
Joshua: Hebrew -The LORD is Salvation

" wrote:RustyClaymore 11:27 - Ah yes, Socks is the single raindrop responsible for the flood. XD


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Postby Rusty Claymore » Tue Jan 04, 2011 10:29 pm

Yeah, I really don't think the Almighty wants us playing "Blues Clues" with something like this.

SHHH! listen! What could that be? Ah! It's Blue sounding the Trump!!! Flip out the handi-dandi noteboo- huh? What do you mean I can't take it with me?!?
Proverbs 31:32 "...when she watches anime, she keeps the room well lit and sits at a safe distance."
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Postby Nate » Wed Jan 05, 2011 6:33 pm

Oddly this relevant piece of info was linked on Giant Bomb of all places.

http://books.google.com/books?id=M7hmAAAAMAAJ&q=The+Last+Apocalypse:+Europe+at+the+Year+1000+A.D.&dq=The+Last+Apocalypse:+Europe+at+the+Year+1000+A.D.&hl=en&ei=GogjTYfaCs2fOsuJsaoJ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCMQ6AEwAA

Apparently as the year 1000 came close, the world was changing quickly and people thought the end was near. I guess people like to think that changing years equate to the end of the world?
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Ezekiel 23:20
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