Coincidence? Plan?

[Mister Frodo]

At times when I'm undecided, I do what any wise man does and turn to M. Night Shyamalan for the answer. And since Signs says there are no coincidences... there are no coincidences. XD

But in all seriousness, while I've always fell more into the "no coincidences" crowd, I think Nate has some really good points. I mean, I don't think that God makes everything happen. I do think that God knows it will happen. Like, God knows whether or not I'm going to eat another potato chip, but he doesn't make me or not make me eat the potato chip. That's where something like free will comes in. So I'm leaning more towards that there are coincidences.

Of course, I could be wrong, as I'm not very knowledgeable, but that's how I see it. I'm still not sure if I want to definitively say that there are coincidences, though, as I think it would depend on what one defines as a coincidence. I guess I'll put down my vote for undecided. XD

[ABlipinTime]

I'm going to agree with Rusty on this point.

Nate, you and I can't agree because we have different ideas of what "coincidence" means. You misunderstood my statement, so I repeat myself: I said coincidence is from our point of view. If I'm about to go look for someone and I turn around and discover they are right behind me, then that is an example of what I would consider a coincidence. Yeah, God knew it was going to happen, but that's besides the point. No, this is not a theological debate about God and free will unless you define "coincidence" in such a way that "coincidence" as being somehow dependent on whether or not God manipulates everything.

[Shao Feng-Li]

I can't come to any other conclusion. He created physics and holds it's laws in his hands. We can't even be 100% certain of the sun raising. I don't know how we could ever pick and choose what he controls and doesn't. Anyway I'm not here to debate (I'm not any good at it), but I know what I know.

[Nate]

Based off of what humans think and perceive, it would seem that there are universal laws. But what if the universe was far more chaotic or nonsensical than we thought?

Then our universal laws wouldn't hold true and they wouldn't be universal laws. I'm failing to see how you can't understand this. If there was a situation in which the speed of light wasn't the speed of light, scientists would say "Okay, we can't have a definitive speed of light because it clearly varies." If gravity didn't always accelerate on Earth at 9.8 m/sec^2, we'd find instances where that wasn't true, and our calculations would fall apart.

This is why I said even if we're perceiving these things incorrectly, everyone is perceiving them incorrectly in the same way such that our mathematics works consistently, our physics works consistently. In that sense, it is objectively "true" whether or not it's objectively true, because our equations are consistently correct.

This is why I keep saying that there ARE physical laws in this universe and saying "BUT DUDE WHAT IF EVERYONE IS JUST SO WRONG ABOUT HOW THEY PERCEIVE IT" is pointless and unhelpful and just stop saying it, seriously, just stop, because it literally contributes nothing, absolutely nothing to the discussion.

I said coincidence is from our point of view.

Did you miss the part where I went into the speech about how humans like to look for patterns that don't exist in things? Of course it's from our point of view, that's how the human mind works. Things happen that have NO rhyme or reason or connection, but the human mind says "Clearly they do!" This is why coincidence exists] No, this is not a theological debate about God and free will unless you define "coincidence" in such a way that "coincidence" as being somehow dependent on whether or not God manipulates everything.[/QUOTE]
Actually, that's exactly what this is. We have two situations:

1. God intervenes in the universe, but set up the universe to be self-sustaining so He doesn't have to make every leaf fall or every atom rotate or every electron negatively charged. Thus, things happen that God didn't make happen, but seem connected, and humans attribute it to coincidence. Free will exists, the earth keeps on spinnin', God does His thing.

2. God always does everything all the time in the universe. This means every occurrence is completely planned and God has a blueprint for what will happen in this universe. This means there is no free will, humans are puppets and mind slaves who cannot defy the blueprint God drew up for Creation. This make coincidence impossible, since God has meticulously planned every minute detail of every occurrence.

I don't know about you, but I like the idea that I am responsible for my own actions. That I stand and fall according to my own merits. That when I sin, it isn't because God said "You will sin at this point in time" on His script, but because I am a fallible human and fell into temptation because of my own free will and flaws.

So you have two choices. Coincidences exist, and we're all ourselves, or coincidences don't, and we're all marionettes on a string.

And hey, you know what? Maybe free will IS an illusion. Maybe we all ARE marionettes on a string with God pulling them. But I like to think we aren't. I like to think I can do things because I wanted to do them, and God just knew I was going to do them, rather than decreeing from on high that I would do them. If you can live with the idea that God programmed you like a robot, then more power to you. But I can't, and so coincidences clearly and obviously exist.

[CrimsonRyu17]

We can't even be 100% certain of the sun raising.

Lolwut? If the sun has "risen" for the past thousands, millions, billions of years then what makes you think that the earth will suddenly stop rotating?

Again, universal/natural laws. I can be 100% certain that the sun will rise tomorrow (even though technically the sun doesn't move, we're the ones moving) in the same way that I can be 100% certain that if you jump off a 30 story building you'll kill yourself.

Inb4 any talk of the sun spontaneously exploding. There's about a 1% of that happening and if it did, the sun would most definitely rise to an extremely high temperature and burn the earth to a crisp.

[steenajack]

After so much that has happened in my life, I don't believe in coincidences anymore. Things happen for a reason, no matter how small things may seem. I see meaning even in the tiniest little things that happen in life.

[ShiroiHikari]

Well, but seeing meaning in the things that happen to us doesn't really fit the definition of "coincidence"...

[Shao Feng-Li]

Lolwut? If the sun has "risen" for the past thousands, millions, billions of years then what makes you think that the earth will suddenly stop rotating?

Again, universal/natural laws. I can be 100% certain that the sun will rise tomorrow (even though technically the sun doesn't move, we're the ones moving) in the same way that I can be 100% certain that if you jump off a 30 story building you'll kill yourself.

Inb4 any talk of the sun spontaneously exploding. There's about a 1% of that happening and if it did, the sun would most definitely rise to an extremely high temperature and burn the earth to a crisp.

Was that meant to be as rude as it comes across? Come on now...

Joshua 10:13-14 (King James Version)

13And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day.

Just saying...

[Midori]

Try to have a little restraint and humility everyone. I know this is a topic you all care a lot about, but God's universe isn't so fragile as to be endangered by a couple differences in how you perceive things.

[Nate]

I want to step back a little and say that despite my last post, I think people are misunderstanding my position (and consequently, the positions of everyone who agrees with me). Saying that there are coincidences in no way implies that God doesn't have plans. I think God does have plans, absolutely. Just that God doesn't plan everything. As I said, He's not a micromanager. He oversees the universe and does actively involve Himself (otherwise we'd be Deists).

So my saying coincidences definitively exist is in no way meant to deny the actions of God in the world, or to say God doesn't have plans. I just wanted to clear that up. I think God does make certain things happen at certain times, just not ALL the time, and it's the times He doesn't that are the coincidences.

Also, I don't think we as humans will always know what are coincidences and what aren't. I mean, there are some things that are definitely coincidence and we can say "God didn't do this because that would be stupid" like the coin-flipping example. God has better things to do than make a quarter come up heads three times in a row. But outside of minor things like that, I don't think we can recognize what's really coincidence and what isn't. That doesn't mean coincidences are nonexistent though, just that they're difficult (if not impossible at times) to recognize.

Again, this topic just boils down to "Do you believe in free will or determinism?" That's a debate that's raged for thousands of years. Believing in coincidence is free will, believing coincidences are not real is determinism. And again, I don't mind if someone thinks free will doesn't exist. That's your opinion, and you're free to have it, though I personally believe in free will because God doesn't seem evil that way. However, I can fully admit I may be wrong and free will is an illusion. I just think we need to recognize that this is, in the big picture, about that subject.

[Radical Dreamer]

I'm sorry, everyone.

This is off-topic. Well, slightly.

Can I just...leave this here? Because seriously guys I cannot resist.




Okay bye, I'm finished. Resume your discussion. XDD

[Rusty Claymore]

I can be 100% certain that if you jump off a 30 story building you'll kill yourself.

Actually to prove your point there was a story awhile back about a suicide jumper being shot accidentally by an old man with a shotgun as he fell past the old guy's window. So yeah, you can't be 100% certain you will kill yourself by jumping off a 30 story building. Someone else might kill you. XD

[ABlipinTime]

@Nate:
*sigh*
You don't understand what I said, or maybe I'm just not able to convey what's on my mind at the unhuman hours I write these things.

Frankly, I don't see the point in continuing arguing. Just my final word here.

[Rusty Claymore]

@Blipin:
That's what they said at the Alamo.