What kind of "Christian" Anime do you want?

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Postby Atria35 » Tue May 04, 2010 5:05 am

Sailor Kenshin (post: 1392062) wrote:Why?

Things that move people tend to be universal. Stories of love, sacrifice, tragedy.

If we weep when we watch Grave of the Fireflies, why would you assume Japanese people have a higher emotional threshold for that sort of story?

In fact they tend to see Westerners as LESS emotional.


Nate already said it. To re-use his words-
Nate (post: 1391940) wrote:Which, as mech said, is fine if you want to create an anime for American Christians. But are you trying to evangelize to Japanese non-Christians? If so, you've already lost. They would never watch a show about how they were wrong to do these things.

Let me put it this way. Do you think a movie about Pearl Harbor, which portrayed the Americans as the bad guys and the Japanese as the suffering underdogs who were righteous and noble for attacking the Pearl Harbor base, would do well with Americans? I seriously doubt it. This is why an anime about the Japanese martyrs would do horrible in Japan.
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Postby Nate » Tue May 04, 2010 5:31 am

Sailor Kenshin wrote:Why?

Thank you for reading my post that explained exactly why. It's so nice to know people listen to what I have to say.
Things that move people tend to be universal. Stories of love, sacrifice, tragedy.

Tend to be is not the same as always. I think the ending of Kamen Rider Blade is amazing, I cried heavily, and think it's the best ending of anything I've ever seen. Other people watched it and said it was hokey, forced drama.

Likewise, I know plenty of people who cried at the ending of Titanic, whereas I was confused and trying to figure out what was going on. I cry really bad when a certain character in Fushigi Yugi dies, and other people go "That guy sucked, I was glad he died."

There are a wide variety of opinions as to what is moving and emotional. And as I said in my post, Japan isn't going to like an anime that portrays them as vicious bad guys, any more than we Americans would like a movie that portrays us as vicious bad guys.

Oooh, how about a movie where the soldiers in the Revolutionary War were portrayed as anti-government upstarts who were greedy and immoral? Do you think Americans would like a movie where the premise is that separating from England was wrong and we were the bad guys?
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Postby Midknight74012 » Tue May 04, 2010 6:09 am

From the book "A Christian's Pocket Guide to the Japanese"
Chapter 1, Page 8
"Issues of shame and loosing face are to be avoided at all costs when working with the Japanese. In traditional Japanese culture, 'disgrace potential' is an important decision-making characteristic. If a policy or a person has the potential for bring about shame, or loss of face, then it will be avoided. In English, words such as humiliation and disgrace better describe the depth of feeling behind this concept. It has a huge negative impact and social stigma attached to it."

I don't care how well you tell the story of the martyring of Christians, I don't see it sitting well with the Japanese.
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Rescue the weak and needy;
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Postby mechana2015 » Tue May 04, 2010 12:29 pm

Midknight74012 (post: 1392077) wrote:From the book "A Christian's Pocket Guide to the Japanese"
Chapter 1, Page 8
"Issues of shame and loosing face are to be avoided at all costs when working with the Japanese. In traditional Japanese culture, 'disgrace potential' is an important decision-making characteristic. If a policy or a person has the potential for bring about shame, or loss of face, then it will be avoided. In English, words such as humiliation and disgrace better describe the depth of feeling behind this concept. It has a huge negative impact and social stigma attached to it."

I don't care how well you tell the story of the martyring of Christians, I don't see it sitting well with the Japanese.


Exactly. Something that they're going to see as us blaming them for isn't going to be a conversion catalyst, it's going to be something they see as a shameful part of their past OR a righteous killing to protect their culture. Neither of these are the desired response if you're trying to market to the general Japanese population.

One other thing to remember is what the response to disgrace has been in Japanese culture, extreme penance to the point of ritual suicide in some cases. Using the story you mentioned would be building a huge wall that would have to be torn down again before you could have a reasonable conversation with anyone that saw the movie.
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Postby Midknight74012 » Sun May 09, 2010 7:19 pm

Anyone else got anything? As we said at the church back in Oklahoma, There is infinite knowledge for an infinite God. I'm sure there is something we haven't discussed.
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Rescue the weak and needy;
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Postby Sailor Kenshin » Tue May 11, 2010 3:58 am

If you gloss over or sugar-coat Christianity you might as well be telling an entirely secular tale.

I'm startled that so many of you don't seem to give credence to the power of the Holy Spirit to move people.
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Postby Warrior 4 Jesus » Tue May 11, 2010 5:22 am

No, what we don't want is sermonising. That's very different to not wanting to have Christian content in it.
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Postby Sailor Kenshin » Tue May 11, 2010 6:18 am

Exactly---which can turn people away.

But that is just what the great Francis Xavier did NOT do. He learned the Japanese ways---dressing in more expensive clothes than would be proper for him, because this was what would get the local authorities to listen to him.

He succeeded. It was later evangelizers who ignored local customs that brought about the rebellion and martyrdom.

But we must above all serve truth. Since there were Japanese heroes in this tale, I still believe it could be told in a way that would engage everyone.
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Postby Atria35 » Tue May 11, 2010 7:12 am

Sailor Kenshin (post: 1393507) wrote:But we must above all serve truth. Since there were Japanese heroes in this tale, I still believe it could be told in a way that would engage everyone.


Or not, since the story would also imply that the ancestors of most (like, 99% since that's how many aren't Christian) of the Japanese were horrible murderers. And since the Japanese are big into honoring their ancestors and family, that might not go over so well.
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Postby Midknight74012 » Tue May 11, 2010 8:22 am

The reason why I'd rather not sugar coat anything is because being a Christian is not all glory and no trials. All humans go through trials of fire and when a Christian holds Christian values with all their heart, they have a different view on the situation whereas anyone else that thought only of themselves would look more at the negative side of things. Apply that in a show and people will begin to wonder why we are happy even during these tribulations. The trick is to get them curious and interested in Christianity and perhaps even convert them if they look at it. If a new Japanese Christian wants to know about the history of Christians in Japan, they can study it themselves because they certainly don't need to hear it from me, a foreigner.

Think of it this way, how would you like a foreigner to tell you about the history of your country in relation to your faith? What would they run into? KKK, Civil War, Slavery, massacre of the Native Americans, stories of greed, preaching against different races, need I go on? So, would you like a history lesson from a foreigner using those subjects? I certainly don't. We can talk how they made mistakes in their country and they can do the same to us.

If we, as Christians, gave them the truth about Christianity in Japan, we would be considered inconsiderate and dishonorable. Sure, we know their history and if they find out, they'll know why we kept quiet about it.
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Rescue the weak and needy;
deliver them from the hand of the wicked.
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Postby Nate » Tue May 11, 2010 8:27 am

Sailor Kenshin wrote:If you gloss over or sugar-coat Christianity you might as well be telling an entirely secular tale.

Let's talk about how the Confederacy used Christianity as proof that slavery was totally okay, and how blacks were made inferior by God and were less than human, so in God's eyes whipping the black slaves was completely justified.

Oh wait, or should we only not gloss over Christianity when it's not making us look bad?
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Postby Nate » Tue May 11, 2010 9:53 am

Oh good, the thread wasn't locked, so I can expound on what I meant without looking like a confrontational jerk.

Here's the problem. The problem is, that Japan is absolutely going to interpret an anime about the Japanese killing Christians as "Look at this horrible thing you did to us, you should be ashamed because what you did was inexcusable and you're lucky we're so full of grace and mercy and are willing to forgive you for the awful bad things you did to us when we were innocent and helpful."

Yeah, doesn't sound like a very friendly message, does it?

They can counter in a number of ways. For example, they can bring up Christianity's sordid past of doing pretty horrible things to other cultures, like say the Spanish Inquisition, the Crusades, or American slavery/Civil War. Once it becomes a game of "Oh yeah? Well so's your mother!" it's not going to get anywhere and it certainly isn't going to win over hearts.
I'm startled that so many of you don't seem to give credence to the power of the Holy Spirit to move people.

*sigh* We DO. But you know sometimes human efforts can stifle that. If I punch someone in the face and start mercilessly beating them while saying "REPENT YOU SINNER COME TO JESUS" do you think the Holy Spirit is going to move that guy's heart? No. Why? Because I'm doing it wrong. Similarly, making Japanese people offended by saying "You guys were so horrible and mean let me tell you" is doing it wrong too. It's not having no faith in the Holy Spirit, it's recognizing that if you act inappropriately you're not helping matters.

EDIT: I know this is a double post, but I didn't want to edit the last one because I wanted to own up to what I said before, even if it did sound rude, and I didn't want an edit making it look like I changed my initial post TO that.
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Postby Yamamaya » Tue May 11, 2010 10:13 am

Let's say the Japanese made a movie to try to convert Americans to their religious/philosophical point of view by producing an anime/live action movie.
Let's say they presented American troops in WWII as evil wicked creatures, glossed over Japan's actions in the war and focused on such things as the rape American troops committed at Okinawa.

Would Americans like such a representation of them as awful people? I sincerely doubt it.
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Postby Midknight74012 » Tue May 11, 2010 11:01 am

I think we made our point here. Don't produce an anime about the history of early Christians in Japan.
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Postby blkmage » Tue May 11, 2010 11:03 am

There's already an example of controversial history on anime and it's produced by Japan. Senkou no Night Raid's seventh episode is getting streamed because it's too controversial to be shown on Japanese tv. It covers the Mukden Incident that lead to the Second Sino-Japanese War and the Invasion of Manchuria. It's controversial because it's mostly accepted that Japanese saboteurs were responsible while the official Japanese line is that it was caused by Chinese dissidents. A classic example of Japan's aversion to being cast in a poor light in history.
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Postby steenajack » Tue May 11, 2010 10:05 pm

As an input to this thread, I think it would be good to mention that the web-manga (also in print) written by Inkhana (entitled Game Plan: http://gameplanmanga.com/?p=1) is being worked on as an anime. In other words, they are working on an anime for Game Plan. Already they have some concept art and such, and I believe they are working on getting some clips up on youtube. Here's the thread on CM: http://www.christianmanga.com/smf/index.php/topic,1261.0.html
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Postby Midknight74012 » Tue May 11, 2010 10:11 pm

I just read the Game Plan manga and it's really good. Of course, it has an extreme background for one of the characters BUT it comes back around for the greater good.
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Postby steenajack » Tue May 11, 2010 10:36 pm

I'm glad you like it sir. I'm a big fan of this story as well :3!
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Postby Adorima » Mon May 24, 2010 5:06 am

Okay a part of this is a bit of self-promotion, but I'm doing it in service of my point: We can tell an explicitly Christian story to the Japanese and be successful in garnering their interest, opening up the potential for conversion. Of course it might not happen overnight, or it might not happen in a clear response. (If I may toot my own horn) Right now I'm writing a fictional story (not an anime or webmanga) set during a Crusade-like time. It's called Leo of the Bridge. Here's a bit of a synopsis:

“To fight for the right, without question or pause ...
To be willing to march into Hell, for a Heavenly cause ...

And I know if I'll only be true, to this glorious quest,
That my heart will lie will lie peaceful and calm,
when I'm laid to my rest ...
And the world will be better for this:
That one man, scorned and covered with scars,
Still strove, with his last ounce of courage,
To reach ... the unreachable star ...”
~ The Unreachable Star, Man of La Manc
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By: Mara Pepito

There was a time in a far away land where a boy lived. He was raised believing that there was a place where everything was good, where everything was even better than could be imagined. Everyone he knew believed that it existed. They just had to venture out into the world to find it. The boy grew up and became a young man, and he went out from province to province, from kingdom to kingdom, from country to country, even crossed oceans. And he found that hardly anyone had heard of this place. That it only existed in fairytales to those who knew of it, as wistful and elusive as a dream – the Kingdom called Heaven.

~~~

While I have this story be in an explicit context of Catholicism/Christianity, I do address later on in the story, the short-comings of these individuals who are Christian. The righteousness of people who aren't Christian, the hypocrisy of both and their journey in life towards truth or towards destruction, whatever faith or lack thereof they may have. My point is not to detract from the salvation that comes only through Christ, but to relate the reality that we are all on a journey to the Lords house and we make choices that please him, or dishonor and defy him. I think my story is an example of how you can tell a story that is not didactic, not "blinded by faith" or not condescending.

I agree with Sailor Kenshin and I do believe the Holy Spirit will move people through Christian art. You guys already covered the issue of not pointing fingers at the Japanese for their past crimes, but that doesn't have to be the sole issue at hand. What about taking advantage of their passing interest in Christian "mythology" and introducing them to a more in-depth look at what it's really about, the life of a Christian?

We can make Christian stories about the early Church in Rome, or about a futuristic dystopia where there are people who might not all identify as Christians, but follow the same code work to change the world, or we can write about another world in which Christianity also exists, but with different life circumstances or cultures like my story? The possibilities are endless.

Key words before reading, fyi: Laity: The faithful who are not the clergy
Apostolate: an organization of the laity devoted to the mission of the Church.

In the letters of Vatican II: Laity, Chapter III: The Various Fields of the Apostolate 13: says, "the Apostolate of the Social Millieu, the effort to infuse a Christian spirit in the mentality, customs, laws and structures of the community in which a person lives, is so much the duty and the responsibility of the laity that it can never be properly performed by others. In this are the laity can exercise the apostolate of like toward like. It is here that laymen add to the testimony of life to the testimony of their speech; it is here in the arena of their labour, profession, studies, residence, leisure and companionship that the layman have the opportunity to help their brothers.

To fulfill the mission of the church in the world, the laity have basic needs. They need a life in harmony with their faith, so they can become the light of the world. They need an undeviating honesty which can attract all men to the love of truth and goodness and finally to church and to Christ...This apostolate should reach out to all men where they can be found; it should not exclude and spiritual or temporal benefit which can possibly be conferred. True apostles, however, are not content with this activity alone, but look for the opportunity to announce Christ through the spoken word as well. For there are many people who can hear the gospel and recognize Christ only through the laity who live near them."


There's a lot more in to be said about our duty as Christians in Vatican II, and more specifically in the "Instruments of Social Communications."

I don't think we should be afraid of evangelizing at all. I think we ought to proclaim the word of God honestly but also in a creative way. With the help of the Holy Spirit, we will set the world on fire.
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Postby MOAVGproduction » Thu May 27, 2010 1:12 pm

something that would be a slice of life kind of story... something that's real, that speaks to someones heart! :D
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Postby Sailor Kenshin » Thu May 27, 2010 1:43 pm

In July, EWTN will air a many-part series on St. Francis Xavier and the evangelization in Japan.

Your local cable company might carry the station, or the show could be viewed online.

I'm excited about seeing it, and hope that it will prove interesting.
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Postby AnimeGirl » Thu May 27, 2010 2:30 pm

steenajack (post: 1393698) wrote:As an input to this thread, I think it would be good to mention that the web-manga (also in print) written by Inkhana (entitled Game Plan: http://gameplanmanga.com/?p=1) is being worked on as an anime. In other words, they are working on an anime for Game Plan. Already they have some concept art and such, and I believe they are working on getting some clips up on youtube. Here's the thread on CM: http://www.christianmanga.com/smf/index.php/topic,1261.0.html


Yes, a good example of what I am looking for. <333

Now, if only Heaven Bound would follow up to this...XD!!
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