Bang Zoom to Cease Anime Dubbing in 2011 Without Fan Support

[TheSubtleDoctor]

And I would totally download a car if the option was available to me.

For sure!

Perhaps the lesson then is that instead of asking us to generate interest the companies themselves should shift gears and start producing or importing figures/posters/etc for the licenses they've acquired. It's more expensive, granted, but what few companies could end up pulling it off would be much healthier in the long run, I reckon. Economically speaking it is much wiser to produce a grocery list of goods and services than to clench your entire business around one specific product.

A couple of things: (1) Head on over to rightstuf and check out the merchandise. Companies do produce/import posters, figures, t-shirts, etc. of certain lucrative licenses. The problem is that these companies don't make enough profit from them to offset the cost of acquiring a new license. They depend on DVD sales for that. So, unless you're willing to pay an arm and a leg for each toy...(2) No one is disputing that North American anime distributors/licenseors have made mistakes: egregious ones. Sales numbers are certainly a reflection of this fact. However, I think the NA companies have a problem with the following line of thought: Fans obtaining illegal copies of products and not buying them is somehow the North American industry's fault. It would be one thing if fans would simply not buy the product; it's quite another to not buy the product but still obtain the product's content illegally. You can see how this might be frustrating. Bang Zoom might look at fansub download numbers for stuff they've dubbed and think, "If only the fans could check their desire for instant-gratification (and wait to pay for discs or watch the legal streams), then we might not be facing this dire situation."

[mechana2015]

I do wonder what this guy thinks of Crunchyroll, a company that streams free, subbed anime legally, less than a week after it airs in Japan, especially since they've apparently found a way to monetize online distribution in a way that allows them to run an expanding business.

[Etoh*the*Greato]

[quote="TheSubtleDoctor (post: 1390847)"]For sure! A couple of things: (1) Head on over to rightstuf and check out the merchandise. Companies do produce/import posters, figures, t-shirts, etc. of certain lucrative licenses. The problem is that these companies don't make enough profit from them to offset the cost of acquiring a new license. They depend on DVD sales for that. So, unless you're willing to pay an arm and a leg for each toy...(2) No one is disputing that North American anime distributors/licenseors have made mistakes: egregious ones. Sales numbers are certainly a reflection of this fact. However, I think the NA companies have a problem with the following line of thought: Fans obtaining illegal copies of products and not buying them is somehow the North American industry's fault. It would be one thing if fans would simply not buy the product]
Like I said, some of them have managed to get in on the merchandising thing and have had varying degrees of success with it. Rightstuff is an interesting case since I've always felt they were more a distributor than a dub company. They're perhaps on the opposite end of what I suggested, distributing goods and then working out translations and dubs on the side (I have frequented their sales where they were openly selling products made by other companies).

[minakichan]

Head on over to rightstuf and check out the merchandise. Companies do produce/import posters, figures, t-shirts, etc. of certain lucrative licenses. The problem is that these companies don't make enough profit from them to offset the cost of acquiring a new license. They depend on DVD sales for that. So, unless you're willing to pay an arm and a leg for each toy...

HEY FUNIMATION IF YOU WOULD MAKE FULL SIZE DAKIMAKURA I WOULD BUY THEM. PLUS ISN'T IT MORE COST-EFFECTIVE TO JUST PRINT DAKIMAKURA COVERS INSTEAD OF MAKING ACTUAL PILLOWS SO USE THE MONEY YOU'D SAVE TO MAKE THEM BIGGER D:

(btw importing merch doesn't have anything to do with getting a license, just throwing that out there.)

But yeah, I have to admit that I buy more Japanese merchandise than American-(read: Funimation)produced stuff. But see, there isn't really a reason for me to-- American stuff is by and large cheaper because it doesn't have huge import markup. If I pay an arm for an American product, I'm probably paying all of my limbs for the Japanese ones. I still buy a ton of American merch-- wrist bands and bags and charms are my fave-- but they don't really have stuff for series I want =( I think for American markets, it's more of a matter of an untapped market-- clearly people want and buy the American stuff that's out there, if you've gone into a dealer's room at a con.

Still really waiting on Funi to release some Romeo x Juliet merch though!!

[Nate]

Well I think a big reason anime licensors in the US aren't doing so well is probably related to what Mina said earlier. A lot of companies make money off toy sales, or other merchandise (cell phone straps, juice bottles, so on). Unfortunately, that isn't really possible in America for a lot of reasons, causing the companies in the US to rely solely on DVD sales or (if they have a mainstream product) money from the TV networks that purchase the show (which is the opposite of the Japanese approach, which is that the anime companies pay the networks to show it).

So even if the anime industry in America fails and goes out of business, it will not affect anime itself. They're making money in Japan, because they have the toy sales, the daikamura sales, the mouse pad sales, the gachapon sales, so on and so on.

The problem is that American companies aren't quite as diversified as the Japanese companies it seems, and so getting "accessory" rights would be a bit more expensive. Especially in the case of toys, America has a nasty habit of producing their own versions of the toys rather than getting originals from Japan (I bought the Power Rangers RPM High Octane Megazord, and the toys were cheaper and poorer quality than the Go-Onger Engine toys), and I'm not sure why, though cutting costs is probably a big factor, although safety regulations probably dictate a lot of changes too...meaning that most hardcore fans are probably going to import goods anyway, leading to not as much revenue for the American companies anyway.

[blkmage]

Bang Zoom might look at fansub download numbers for stuff they've dubbed and think, "If only the fans could check their desire for instant-gratification (and wait to pay for discs or watch the legal streams), then we might not be facing this dire situation."

Unfortunately for Bang Zoom, that is not how markets work. The market is demanding near-simultaneous access to shows that are airing in Japan and not dubs. They are providing the latter, not the former. Why should they expect to be entitled to our money? And unfortunately for them, the fact that CR and Funi are now actually providing this legally drives the nail into their coffin even further.

[Nate]

"If only the fans could check their desire for instant-gratification (and wait to pay for discs or watch the legal streams), then we might not be facing this dire situation."

But watching the legal streams wouldn't help Bang Zoom or any dubbing company. AT ALL. So why would they want fans to watch the legal streams? It doesn't get them work. Your argument is flawed. In fact, they're probably completely against legal streams on company sites because it could result in them getting even less work than now.

Besides, if someone can get something faster, they'll get it. Can you imagine if a fast food restaurant took ten minutes to serve someone food in a drive-thru and said, "If only people could check their desire to get food in 45 seconds in a drive-thru, we wouldn't be going out of business!" You know what? Suck it up and get faster. CAPITALISM, SON, IF YOU DON'T PROVIDE CUSTOMERS WITH WHAT THEY WANT YOU DON'T SURVIVE.

And what's the best way to get anime to people faster? Legal streams, no dubs. Boom. Then you can have shows streaming legally on an North American anime company's site within a day or two after it airs on Japanese TV. So again, the best way to make money for NA anime companies seems to be "Get rid of dubs." I can't imagine Bang Zoom saying "Oh we'd be happy to go out of business as long as anime fans are watching shows legally!" They're not saints. They're businessmen.

[MasterDias]

Here's the thing however. It doesn't really appear like anyone is making much money off of the legal streams either. Crunchyroll received considerably less simulcasts this Spring than in the previous several seasons. It looks like a bunch of their previous shows didn't even manage to break even, so the Japanese companies are now hesitant about the whole thing. No one has yet figured out a way to successfully monetize online streaming.

[blkmage]

Streaming isn't a magic bullet. I wouldn't expect every show to break even, especially considering some of the shows that they got. You can't expect shows that got <1k sales in Japan to be money-makers here (LOLOLOL Asura Cryin' and Natsu no Arashi and 11eyes and Shangri-la). And unfortunately for CR, a lot of their catalogue is made up of that. Again, we've got the whole "license everything!" trend going that ultimately led to the death of several distributors.

Another consideration is Funimation's entrance into this market. They already snapped up the noitaminA shows, which was a smart move. And so we're back to this whole thing about diversification.

[rocklobster]

You know one good way to stop the fansubbers? Crack down on them! If that would happen more often, I'm sure they'd be warier. Either that or go legit.

[Nate]

Because we all know cracking down on stuff and making it more restrictive causes it to stop. That's why alcohol is illegal, because Prohibition worked so well!

But seriously, cracking down on fansubbers would do nothing. It'd stop them for a little while, until they got another site and host.

In addition, most fansubs are of titles that are not licensed in America. For the most part, when a series is licensed, fansubbing stops. Yes there's exceptions, but most of the fansubbers show that courtesy. This leaves an American distribution company that doesn't have the rights to a show shaky legal ground. Sure, they CAN send a cease and desist, but they have no financial interest in the show, and court costs are expensive. No company would hire lawyers and go to court over a show they don't even have the rights to.

[ShiroiHikari]

I was really hoping the "license everything!" trend would stop. Seriously, people. It doesn't work.

[blkmage]

You know one good way to stop the fansubbers? Crack down on them! If that would happen more often, I'm sure they'd be warier. Either that or go legit.

It's almost like we forgot so soon.

Let me spell it out specifically. America is not the world. Just because an R1 distribution company licenses something does not mean that the entire English-speaking world has access to it. R1 companies have gained scorn among international fans because they stomp on fansubbers once they get licenses. And yet, R1 distributors don't serve those areas, so most international fans are pretty much out of luck. Fansubs serve this group of people and function in much the same way that they did early on in the American market, growing the niche market to a size where it can be turned into real monies.

So it turns out killing fansubbing would be disastrous for the world market, which is important for diversification, which, as we learned today, is a good thing.

I was really hoping the "license everything!" trend would stop. Seriously, people. It doesn't work.

Part of the blame is with Japanese licensors, who force awful licenses onto distributors as part of a package with very lucrative licenses. Of course, the other part of the blame goes to R1 companies who think that just because something is anime, it'll make piles of money.

[Davidizer13]

Here's the thing however. It doesn't really appear like anyone is making much money off of the legal streams either.

Hulu is making money, and it's projected to make even more money in the next year. Sure, if you don't live in the US, you're out of luck, and most of the money is going towards the bigger players (NBC, Fox, etc.), but it's a start towards making online streaming more attractive to distributors. It might not earn as much money as DVD sales at the moment, but I think streaming is going to become more profitable as time goes on; it can reach a wider audience (it's hard to beat free, after all), so it can sell more ads, and hopefully more episodes/DVDs.

[Atria35]

Well, depending on whether this pans out, free streaming may not be the answer, either:
[url]http://www.imaginepub.com/howdoyouconnect/hulu-to-charge-9-95-a-month-starting-may-24th/#utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:%20ipub-howdoyouconnect%20How%20Do%20You%20Connect?[/url]

[MasterDias]

Hulu is a bit of a different case, and not entirely comparable to Crunchyroll. Their bread and butter is really the popular domestic shows like Lost and 24. What I would want to know is how popular the anime minus the uber-popular shonen shows like Naruto and FMA is. I'm sure Naruto does well for Crunchyroll after all, and such shows are really anomalies anyway.

How many hits are When They Cry and Shikabane Hime and Spice and Wolf and Darker Than Black and so forth getting? That would tell me if people are actually watching the more non-mainstream/late night/niche stuff, which really comprises the majority of anime, via Hulu.

[Rocketshipper]

What I really want to know is....What ever happend to download to own? Why isn't this an option?? I'd gladly pay per episode (as long as its reasonable) to own a copy of the episode on my computer, to be able to copy it to a disc, watch it whenever I want. I like the way iTunes and similar services do it, and I'd prefer this to even free streaming, because there are no ads, and I don't have to have internet access to watch the show once its been downloaded. But it seems like whenever the topic of digital distribution comes up, its always about streaming ><.

[Mr. Hat'n'Clogs]

Hulu is a bit of a different case, and not entirely comparable to Crunchyroll. Their bread and butter is really the popular domestic shows like Lost and 24. What I would want to know is how popular the anime minus the uber-popular shonen shows like Naruto and FMA is. I'm sure Naruto does well for Crunchyroll after all, and such shows are really anomalies anyway.

How many hits are When They Cry and Shikabane Hime and Spice and Wolf and Darker Than Black and so forth getting? That would tell me if people are actually watching the more non-mainstream/late night/niche stuff, which really comprises the majority of anime, via Hulu.

I couldn't tell you about the ones you've mentioned, but as far as Crunchyroll goes, most of their big hits are shojou stuff, minus the obvious Naruto. Some of the simulcasts do well, while others(Hanamaru Kindergarten) have done poorly.

[minakichan]

Yeaaaaaaaah CR has a lot of potential, but I really don't think they're reaching it. They have high-def video! They're legal! They provide more instant gratification than downloading fansubs! This is all awesome! Now if only they'd get more hit shows and less crap, and if only they got real fansubbers to do nice-looking subs that aren't awful and don't call characters who are obviously males "she" and explain Mahjong rules without even consulting Wikipedia, among other things. Seriously, fansubbers do this stuff for fun, they provide the accurate liner notes that people want, and most of them WANT to support the industry; is it really so hard for CR to go to some of the best groups and just ask if they could go legit for you? You MIGHT not even have to pay them. orz.

[crazypackersfan]

I honestly don't know what Bang Zoom dubs. If it's not anything big-name, I won't miss them.

I'm proud to admit I stay away from fansubs as much as possible. I've only watched them in the case of the second season of Haruhi Suzumiya, which I'll end up buying the dub DVD box set anyway, and Bleach, which I'll end up watching the dub on TV anyway.

I get sick of hearing industry people at anime conventions yelling "Buy a DVD! Buy a DVD!" just like the "Buy a PC! Buy a PC!" guy from the Mac vs. PC commercials. The fact is, if they want to make money, they have to find a way to overcome fansubs. You can't just beg for people to support you, you have to find a way to force them to support you. I bet there are a lot of people who watch Bleach fansubs who end up spending lots of money on Bleach merchandise... you can't rule that factor out either.

[MasterDias]

I honestly don't know what Bang Zoom dubs. If it's not anything big-name, I won't miss them.

I'm proud to admit I stay away from fansubs as much as possible. I've only watched them in the case of the second season of Haruhi Suzumiya, which I'll end up buying the dub DVD box set anyway, and Bleach, which I'll end up watching the dub on TV anyway.

If you have heard english Haruhi, you have heard a Bang Zoom dub. Of the LA studios, they are pretty high-profile and have done a number of notable shows including Eureka Seven, Gurren Lagann, Samurai Champloo, Last Exile, Gankutsuou, Rurouni Kenshin, Moribito, Scrapped Princess...
Really, Geneon and Bandai used them to dub a number of their more high-profile titles in the past...which is probably a large portion of the problem Bang Zoom's actually having considering Geneon went under and Bandai is not really doing all that much currently.

[TheSubtleDoctor]

What I really want to know is....What ever happend to download to own?

It be here. Select a show! Drop box!

[The Doctor]

This CEO needs to stop whining. Like the great Jack Welch said, change is here to stay.

True, anime fans SHOULD stop watching illegally, but will they?

Steve Jobs made the case, successfully I might add, that people WILL pay for legal content if you make it available and affordable. Today, iTunes is the largest online retailer in the world and is the largest moneymaker for the music industry ever.

Whining and begging fans to buy anime legally assumes that many of them can afford the current prices. It's possible the majority cannot afford the high prices of said product, or wish to spend the high cost for it. So, if a free alternative comes up, naturally they'll go for it. The market forces demand that in such situations, prices must go down or make a product good enough with bells and whistles that are difficult to pirate online.

This letter, a well intentioned alarm it might be, will not fix the problem. The anime industry must change or die. It must either adapt to the current net piracy, or perish and be banished back to Japan. Enough of this "no internet system profitable enough to encourage distributors has yet been developed" crap. Just because it doesn't exist yet doesn't mean it never will. If it doesn't, go invent it! I'm not saying it's easy, but in tough market times like these the greatest business minds in history didn't whine to their customer base. They rolled up their sleeves, got their teams together, made tough decisions, and implemented plans to recover. They took risks. Some succeeded, some didn't. Some companies thrived, some failed. It's the nature of the beast.

It's time to lead.

[Rocketshipper]

Here's a list of some of the shows Bang Zoom dubbed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bang_Zoom!_Entertainment#Anime

They've done quit a few high profile series.

[Etoh*the*Greato]

Well I think a big reason anime licensors in the US aren't doing so well is probably related to what Mina said earlier. A lot of companies make money off toy sales, or other merchandise (cell phone straps, juice bottles, so on). Unfortunately, that isn't really possible in America for a lot of reasons, causing the companies in the US to rely solely on DVD sales or (if they have a mainstream product) money from the TV networks that purchase the show (which is the opposite of the Japanese approach, which is that the anime companies pay the networks to show it).

So even if the anime industry in America fails and goes out of business, it will not affect anime itself. They're making money in Japan, because they have the toy sales, the daikamura sales, the mouse pad sales, the gachapon sales, so on and so on.

The problem is that American companies aren't quite as diversified as the Japanese companies it seems, and so getting "accessory" rights would be a bit more expensive. Especially in the case of toys, America has a nasty habit of producing their own versions of the toys rather than getting originals from Japan (I bought the Power Rangers RPM High Octane Megazord, and the toys were cheaper and poorer quality than the Go-Onger Engine toys), and I'm not sure why, though cutting costs is probably a big factor, although safety regulations probably dictate a lot of changes too...meaning that most hardcore fans are probably going to import goods anyway, leading to not as much revenue for the American companies anyway.

Pretty much what I'd already brought up. I really do think that reaching out and producing other products for the licenses they've acquired would help them a lot. Several of the more successful companies are already doing so, even if it's something as simple as producing english language Manga like Viz. I think with the growing trade in import figurines, this would be a good market to reach into as well for the American audience. Creating decent and decently sized maquettes and figurines would be a good business. It's already a model that is proven to work for comic books and we're clearly already importing them for Anime and Manga.

[ShiroiHikari]

Part of the blame is with Japanese licensors, who force awful licenses onto distributors as part of a package with very lucrative licenses.

Oh, Japan.

[Atria35]

Whining and begging fans to buy anime legally assumes that many of them can afford the current prices. It's possible the majority cannot afford the high prices of said product, or wish to spend the high cost for it. So, if a free alternative comes up, naturally they'll go for it. The market forces demand that in such situations, prices must go down or make a product good enough with bells and whistles that are difficult to pirate online.

This letter, a well intentioned alarm it might be, will not fix the problem. The anime industry must change or die. It must either adapt to the current net piracy, or perish and be banished back to Japan. Enough of this "no internet system profitable enough to encourage distributors has yet been developed" crap. Just because it doesn't exist yet doesn't mean it never will. If it doesn't, go invent it! I'm not saying it's easy, but in tough market times like these the greatest business minds in history didn't whine to their customer base. They rolled up their sleeves, got their teams together, made tough decisions, and implemented plans to recover. They took risks. Some succeeded, some didn't. Some companies thrived, some failed. It's the nature of the beast.

It's time to lead.

Okay, I would pay good money to see this given as a speech to those guys.

[blkmage]

The problem with this particular article is that it is now 2010. The problems have been clear for years, fans and the market have made what they want clear for years, and the same fight over new technology and digital piracy has been fought in other industries for years. And that executive and his company and other distributors did nothing for years. If he is only waking up to it now he is either willfully negligent or incompetent.

The timing of this article is extremely interesting. Note that Bang Zoom is the company responsible for dubbing Gurren Lagann. What big Gurren Lagann news was announced only a week or two ago? A certain huge Japanese publisher by the name of Aniplex is getting into R1 distribution. Their first titles? The Gurren Lagann movies. The problem for Bang Zoom is that they're going sub only.

That, along with the industry's great track record for inaction, is why I view this rant with only the greatest amount of suspicion and derision.

[Etoh*the*Greato]

The problem with this particular article is that it is now 2010. The problems have been clear for years, fans and the market have made what they want clear for years, and the same fight over new technology and digital piracy has been fought in other industries for years. And that executive and his company and other distributors did nothing for years. If he is only waking up to it now he is either willfully negligent or incompetent.

The timing of this article is extremely interesting. Note that Bang Zoom is the company responsible for dubbing Gurren Lagann. What big Gurren Lagann news was announced only a week or two ago? A certain huge Japanese publisher by the name of Aniplex is getting into R1 distribution. Their first titles? The Gurren Lagann movies. The problem for Bang Zoom is that they're going sub only.

That, along with the industry's great track record for inaction, is why I view this rant with only the greatest amount of suspicion and derision.

I don't disagree with you one whit, but to bring up Devil's Advocate, there has been a lot of noise I've seen this year in regards to the state of the Anime industry in America. It HAS been a problem that's been around for years, but it really does feel like a lot of dub companies are only just now starting to wake up to the issue.

[blkmage]

I don't disagree with you one whit, but to bring up Devil's Advocate, there has been a lot of noise I've seen this year in regards to the state of the Anime industry in America. It HAS been a problem that's been around for years, but it really does feel like a lot of dub companies are only just now starting to wake up to the issue.

But that's my point. Why are companies only realizing this now? They didn't see the fight the music and movie industries went through? They didn't realize that people watch fansubs when Haruhi aired in 2006, almost exactly four years ago, and it got super huge before distributors even caught on? They couldn't figure out how to monetize streaming in the years before the economy collapsed? They didn't see a collapse in anime in North America coming with Japan's own collapse?

There are two possibilities. The first is that they knew, and they did nothing. The second is that they didn't know, even with all the signs pointing to it. The industry has no excuse for either option and fully deserve the situation they are currently facing.