Japan: be nice to visit there but I would never live there.

[Yamamaya]

Does anyone else share this same sentiment?

Let me just say the more I read about the way Japanese people treat foreigners in business, the more cynical I become of the entire country. I read a blog about a JET who was treated quite terribly(can't post it here due to heavy language).

Apparently a bunch of tests were lost and this JET was made the scapegoat of the entire ordeal. The vice priniciple even said, "Oh students have never stole anything here," when the school had a massive scandal a while back when a student stole another student's wallet.

It seems like the Japanese system loves to throw the blame onto gaijins in order to preserve their own false sense of perfection.

I mean every country has its good and bad points, but some of the things I've read about Japan have just been really discouraging. I would never want to live there.

Anyone else share my sentiments?

[Mr. SmartyPants]

Be careful as to judging another culture, because more than likely we're judging a culture's norms or standards with our own culture (or our own biases/views as to what a standard ought to be).

Besides that, you're seemingly being awfully harsh on a culture that you haven't even had much exposure to... let alone looked at with a different set of eyes. Prejudgments won't get you very far, I'm afraid.

See also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_relativism

[Mr. Rogers]

Not at all.

You can point the finger at Japanese for mistreating foreigners, but how do we treat foreigners in the United States?

Immigration is very difficult in the USA and makes trying to gain a better life for people miserable. We pay foreigners very low pay and no benefits and treat them like they are animals, sometimes. How much racism is in the USA? Much of the founding of our country was based on racist sentiments. For proof, let me point out the treatment of Native Americans and Blacks (not to mention the Japanese in WW2 and other races) throughout our history. Even after all of the social movements that have happened, we are still a very white-oriented society.

These things are going to happen to you in Japan because you are different. You have to understand the historical backgrounds of the two different countries. America is very used to have many races in one place. Japanese has never been like that. If you are a non-Japanese in Japan, you are going to be treated differently, because - face it - you are. Haven't Americans blamed immigrants for taking jobs (is this an example of blaming foreigners?) Have you ever treated someone badly because they were different than you? You might want to consider whether you are just as guilty in your own life.

If you are a JET teacher in the countryside of Japan, it is very common for people to randomly come to your house and bring you food or other nice things. People treat you well and with respect because you took the time to come to them. When I was in Japan (were you ever actually in Japan?) people were very greatfull to me that I would take the time to be interested in their country.

Stories like this happen everywhere, not just in Japan. And, more often than not, they are the exception rather than the rule. My Japanese friends have been very kind to me and have never mistreated me. It is because of them that I now have the direction in my life that I do now. My Japanese friend is the reason I feel more sure about my future because of the help he has given me.

My suggestion: suck it up and deal with it. It's not as bad as some people say it is. As Christians, we are to love people no matter what, even when they mistreat us. Japan isn't all that bad.

[Yamamaya]

Don't get me wrong, I certainly agree that there are terrible things in every culture.

Yeah I jumped the gun a bit with my post but let's just say a lot of the articles I read were pretty discouraging.

The biggest problem in all of these situations is rabid nationalism/racism etc.

You don't have to tell me about racism in America. I'm well aware of some of the terrible things that have, and still do happen in my country.

[Mr. Rogers]

Don't get me wrong, I certainly agree that there are terrible things in every culture.

Yeah I jumped the gun a bit with my post but let's just say a lot of the articles I read were pretty discouraging.

The biggest problem in all of these situations is rabid nationalism/racism etc.

I would say that America has just as much nationalism. We aren't allowed to get into politics, but just look at our involvement in foreign affairs and you will see what I mean. America isn't racist. Japan isn't racist. People are. Be more concerned with your own life instead of the lives of others. When you love other people, they will learn to love also. Your concern is your own life, not everyone else's.

Maybe you should try reading some of the more encouraging articles, as well. I know there are plenty of good stories out there, too.

[Yamamaya]

You're speaking to the choir there man. I am well aware of the rabid nationalism in America when it comes to such issues as foreign policy and such *cough* People's History of the United States *cough*

But regardless, it seems my problem and the problem of others who look at Japan is to understand the power of their culture. Here in America, there is no one uniform culture wheras in Japan, culture generally tends to be more uniform.

Everyone's experience is different though.

[blkmage]

I'd say it's not really a Japanese thing, but more East Asian. In order to see the reasons why this is so, you're going to have to go much, much deeper in your analysis of the culture.

I'll second what MSP said about culture. Even among cultures that, on the surface, appear to be similar (say, Canada and the US), if you take the time and go deeper into the details of many things, you'll find a lot of fundamental differences (like, say, life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness vs. peace, order, and good government).

[Mr. Rogers]

You're speaking to the choir there man. I am well aware of the rabid nationalism in America when it comes to such issues as foreign policy and such *cough* People's History of the United States *cough*

But regardless, it seems my problem and the problem of others who look at Japan is to understand the power of their culture. Here in America, there is no one uniform culture wheras in Japan, culture generally tends to be more uniform.

That's because the two countries have completely different foundations. America is a country of immigrants. We are used to having many different people.

Japan is a small island (the side of california) with 75% or so of its land uninhabitable and not many natural resources. It was surrounded by huge enemies (china and korea) with not much defense. A strong sense of unity was necessary for the county's survival. This is something the Japanese still have today.

There are other events even in modern history that only reinforced the unity. After WW2 when a large portion of Japan was destroyed, there needed to be a strong sense of unity for the country to be able to rebuild itself.

You are comparing two countries that have two completely different foundations. That is why things are different.

[Roy Mustang]

I think the problem is a good number of anime fans think that Japan is happy fun sunshine land, where rainbows pop up everyday and birds sing anime songs.

But they don't read up on the culture of the county or understand it and then when they read stuff like this, they feel bitter or upset that Japan is no Happiest place on earth.

All counties have their up sides and down side to them and your going to find racism everywhere.

[font="Book Antiqua"][color="Red"]Col. Roy Mustang[/color][/font]

[Mr. Rogers]

I think the problem is a good number of anime fans think that Japan is happy fun sunshine land, where rainbows pop up everyday and birds sing anime songs.

But they don't read up on the culture of the county or understand it and then when they read stuff like this, they feel bitter or bitter that Japan is no Happiest place on earth.

All counties have their up sides and down side to them and your going to find racism everywhere.

Col. Roy Mustang

You hit it dead-on, Roy. We need to get rid of our "otaku-vision" and see reality so we are not disappointed.

[Mr. SmartyPants]

America isn't racist. Japan isn't racist. People are.

I'm going to have to disagree with this one to a slight degree. The definition of "racism" is often defined differently among different population groups. For example, many white people believe racism is at a totally individual level. However, many blacks believe racism to be entirely structural, meaning that some blacks believe they cannot be racist because they hold no structural power over whites. It's no doubt that the reverse is of course, the opposite.

That being said, I take the side that racism in America very much exists both structurally and individually. Henceforth, America is racist. And so are many Americans.

[Yamamaya]

I think the problem is a good number of anime fans think that Japan is happy fun sunshine land, where rainbows pop up everyday and birds sing anime songs.

But they don't read up on the culture of the county or understand it and then when they read stuff like this, they feel bitter or bitter that Japan is no Happiest place on earth.

All counties have their up sides and down side to them and your going to find racism everywhere.

[font="Book Antiqua"][color="Red"]Col. Roy Mustang[/color][/font]

I never thought it was a happy domo sunshine land.

Although that entirely depends on what animes you watch. If you consider Evangelion to be a representation of Japan, you'll think of the place as pretty dang depressing. XD.

It's just that I'm interested in Japan so naturally it can become pretty discouraging when you read about some gajiin's experience in the country and how they themselves become pretty disillusioned.

It's like if you're a foreigner who becomes interested in America after watching foreign films. You think racism is more of a thing of a past, but then you read into it, and you find out that racism is still alive and well in America.

Speaking of ultranationalists, I dealt with a Japanese ultranationalist on a forum I frequent. Let's just say the experience was NOT fun.

[Mr. Rogers]

I'm going to have to disagree with this one to a slight degree. The definition of "racism" is often defined differently among different population groups. For example, many white people believe racism is at a totally individual level. However, many blacks believe racism to be entirely structural, meaning that some blacks believe they cannot be racist because they hold no structural power over whites. It's no doubt that the reverse is of course, the opposite.

That being said, I take the side that racism in America very much exists both structurally and individually. Henceforth, America is racist. And so are many Americans.

I understand racism is much more complicated than I explained. I'm just using the term loosely in a general way.

It's just that I'm interested in Japan so naturally it can become pretty discouraging when you read about some gajiin's experience in the country and how they themselves become pretty disillusioned.

Welcome to reality. There are some bad things no matter where you go. There are also plenty of good things. You have to take them both.

[Fish and Chips]

Boy oh boy, another Yamamaya thread.

Anyway, yes, there is indeed a negative accent in some Japanese/non-Japanese relations (some more pronounced than others, such as in night life and, I've heard, business dealings), but you shouldn't let that color your entire take on a country; likewise, don't assume a few friendly stories cover the entire map either. People are people, and cultural mindsets differ greatly.

The Japanese have always been staunchly proud of their Japanese-ness, and in this current international cultural smorgasbord there runs a vein of fear of losing ones cultural identity in the mass of global cultural saturation. It may be difficult to conceive of, particularly considering we Americans are, ourselves, a melting pot of no particular demographics strongly influencing anything. Some of us may have a strong nationalistic identity, but an ethnic one, not so much. German isn't just a nationality, it's an ethnicity, as is Scottish, or Indian, or Chinese. But American? We're boatloads more loose and casual on that end.

Not only is Japan strongly rooted in its own sense of being, it has a very long isolationist history (and a hostile one with the continental mainland), which they have only really broken out of in the last 100 years or so. A single "Gaijin" in an otherwise pure heritage Japanese class would be something to single them out, possibly for the worst in this case. It doesn't help that education is incredibly competitive over there.

This doesn't excuse the behavior of the Japanese regarding foreigners and non-Japanese citizens, but you need to understand where this mindset is coming from. They're new at this, in a very real sense.

Echoing what Jim said, you won't find a shortage of jerks anywhere. You can take action, or just roll with it and find someone more personable.

[ChristianKitsune]

I wouldn't want to move to Japan because I like it here too much...(for now anyways)

But it might be fun to visit there.

and I think Roy hit it Dead on too..

[Yamamaya]

[quote="Fish and Chips (post: 1351764)"]Boy oh boy, another Yamamaya thread.

Anyway, yes, there is indeed a negative accent in some Japanese/non-Japanese relations (some more pronounced than others, such as in night life and, I've heard, business dealings), but you shouldn't let that color your entire take on a country]


No need to be condescending.

I also understand the fact that Japan's culture has been deeply colored by the isolationism and their sense of national identity.

[Mr. Rogers]

I think we've said about everything useful we can say in this thread xD

[Nate]

Hey guys way to take everything I could've posted. :|

Actually I COULD post more but I'd be going political and we can't have that.

[blkmage]

The takeaway from this discussion should not be that Japan's/America's/Canada's/Zeon's treatment of foreigners is because of x, y, and z. As good as the points that have been raised are, they're still only scratching the surface and are really only a pretty cursory take on something that people write books and doctoral theses on. This issue is really complex and if you really want a good answer, you're going to have to do a lot more work to get one.

Anyway, to actually answer your question, no, I would not, but for reasons different from yours, more having to do with my own issues with East Asian culture. I don't even know if I want to move to the States to work after I graduate because of my perceptions of the culture there, quite honestly.

[Mr. Rogers]

The takeaway from this discussion should not be that Japan's/America's/Canada's/Zeon's treatment of foreigners is because of x, y, and z. As good as the points that have been raised are, they're still only scratching the surface and are really only a pretty cursory take on something that people write books and doctoral theses on. This issue is really complex and if you really want a good answer, you're going to have to do a lot more work to get one.

The solution: Start studying culture and history.

- Japan: It's History and Culture (Morton)
- The Geography of Thought
- Bushido (Inazo Nitobe)

Great start is in these books. Look them up on Amazon.

[Fish and Chips]

No need to be condescending.

To be perfectly fair, Yama, you have a penchant for starting off hot button threads with a gunshot. But that's all I'll say on the subject.

[LadyRushia]

Actually I COULD post more but I'd be going political and we can't have that.

Indeed we can't. Keep this civil and out of debate territory.

[Tsukuyomi]

May I ask what you look for when searching for articles to read about Japan ^__^ Just as there are bad stories (anywhere else really), I'm sure there are good ones out there It's good to prepare yourself for this and that, but you should really "experience" this or that before passing judgment ^^

I can understand how it would be discouraging to read about such things, but an experience can be different for each person ^^

[Yamamaya]

May I ask what you look for when searching for articles to read about Japan ^__^ Just as there are bad stories (anywhere else really), I'm sure there are good ones out there It's good to prepare yourself for this and that, but you should really "experience" this or that before passing judgment ^^

I can understand how it would be discouraging to read about such things, but an experience can be different for each person ^^

Mostly looked up stuff about gajiins in Japan and the issue of xenophobia. Also a Canadian who lives in Japan sent me a link to the website of a social activist in Japan who has a ton of articles on discrimination in Japan and how to adjust to life there. He also wrote a book on certain Japanese establishments that do not allow gajiins to go there(like hot springs) Linky to his book http://www.debito.org/japaneseonly.html


To Fish and Chips, how does writing 2 or 3 hot button threads mean I have a penchant for it? Regardless that ad hominem had nothing to do with the topic.

[Kerri]

Despite the somewhat... negatively colored comments I have read in this thread...

I still love Japan and I would like to go. I deal with being "different" here all the time. I can't see where it would be that much worse across the ocean, where people actually have a reason to treat me different.

Besides that, it's the first place I think of when people mention missions or evangelical work. Yes, expenses tend to keep such groups away, but with less than a percent of christians it's necessary.

If I got the chance to move I would.

[Fish and Chips]

To Fish and Chips, how does writing 2 or 3 hot button threads mean I have a penchant for it? Regardless that ad hominem had nothing to do with the topic.

I mean you keep making these threads against all odds.

Also, ad hominem does not work like you think it does. If this was ad hominem I would have disregarded your opening post entirely with a wave of my hand because "Yamamaya smells" or something. Taking your question seriously, while noting offhandedly the tendency of your threads to become controversial, is not a fallacy.

[Yamamaya]

I mean you keep making these threads against all odds.

Also, ad hominem does not work like you think it does. If this was ad hominem I would have disregarded your opening post entirely with a wave of my hand because "Yamamaya smells" or something. Taking your question seriously, while noting offhandedly the tendency of your threads to become controversial, is not a fallacy.

I used the wrong word, I simply meant that such a comment was unnecessary and was mainly a slight jab at me.

I don't mind the fact that my threads tend to become controversial. We need to ask the hard questions.

Anyway, I am perfectly aware of the fact that Japanese culture has a mixture of bad and good elements. Unfortunatley we often hear the most about the bad things like that recent case with the mother running off to Japan with her kids and not giving the dad visitation rights.

The simple reason I would not want to live in Japan is frankly the culture shock would drive me up the wall and I wouldn't want to live in a place where I knew many boundaries had already been set up against me.

[LadyRushia]

I don't mind the fact that my threads tend to become controversial.

In all honesty, you should because controversial threads get out of hand too quickly and break the rules of this forum, which leads them to being locked.

[Yamamaya]

In all honesty, you should because controversial threads get out of hand too quickly and break the rules of this forum, which leads them to being locked.

*shrugs* That's more due to the fact that some people get a little too fired up when they debate others. More of the fault of the posters than the actual topic(and this one is unlikely to cause flames anyway considering it is merely a discussion about some of the negative aspects of living in Japan).

Regardless, I don't mind if you decide to close this thread.

[Mr. SmartyPants]

I mean you keep making these threads against all odds.

Also, ad hominem does not work like you think it does. If this was ad hominem I would have disregarded your opening post entirely with a wave of my hand because "Yamamaya smells" or something. Taking your question seriously, while noting offhandedly the tendency of your threads to become controversial, is not a fallacy.

But we are going necessarily off-topic here. Which was... admittedly, instigated by you.

In all honesty, you should because controversial threads get out of hand too quickly and break the rules of this forum, which leads them to being locked.

Just wondering... what DOES "get out of hand too quickly" mean anyway? I mean... how is that assessed? Especially if it's pure text-reading. And wouldn't "controversial" be kind of a relative statement?

Granted there are a number of young posters on this forum.