Xenophobia in Japan?

[Yamamaya]

I understand that Christianity has been shunned in Japan for quite some time especially when the Dutch tried to bring it over to Japan.

Although in some ways that is similar to the condition of the U.S. because Protestant Christianity has for the most part been dominant in the U.S. Many of the Catholic immigrants were discriminated against when they came to the U.S. Even today, being a non Christian kinda ostracizes you. In Japan, it is much more extreme, but there are a few similarities. In addition, Americans tend to be relatively nationalistic, but we are more accepting of other races(in general.)

[Fish and Chips]

It has almost nothing to do with being misunderstood and pretty much everything to do with Japan's sense of self-identity.

This is very true (especially the outlawing of foreign religions). Shintoism is a very distinctly Japanese religion, almost tailor made to the country.

According to Shintoism, the parent gods Izanagi and his wife Izanami personally created the Japanese archipelago by drops falling from the tips of their holy spears, materializing into land when they made contact with the salty sea. Other islands were even conceived and borne of Izanami like children. In Shintoism, the ground and the rocks you walk on to the trees and the animals and the people of Japan are all blessed by the gods, and hold everything as sacred in one light or another. It is a very particular mythology constrained to a small portion of the world, where the Isles of Japan lay.

Christianity, by contrast, would be seen as a religion of the West, of Europe and later America, having nothing to do with Japan. It was brought by traders, many of whom were dogged in their pursuit of conversions, and of course it's association with the ever infamous Oda Nobunaga, who Nate has already mentioned.

There was, briefly, a small but thriving community of Christians due to Jesuit influence before the isolationist policies, but afterwards a good number were killed or went underground.

EDIT: Actually, I believe the Dutch were one of the few groups who didn't try to impress their faith upon the people they did business with, and so were permitted (to an extremely limited degree) to continue business with Japan, even during the Isolationist Period.

[Yamamaya]

This is very true (especially the outlawing of foreign religions). Shintoism is a very distinctly Japanese religion, almost tailor made to the country.

According to Shintoism, the parent gods Izanagi and his wife Izanami personally created the Japanese archipelago by drops falling from the tips of their holy spears, materializing into land when they made contact with the salty sea. Other islands were even conceived and borne of Izanami like children. In Shintoism, the ground and the rocks you walk on to the trees and the animals and the people of Japan are all blessed by the gods, and hold everything as sacred in one light or another. It is a very particular mythology constrained to a small portion of the world, where the Isles of Japan lay.

Christianity, by contrast, would be seen as a religion of the West, of Europe and later America, having nothing to do with Japan. It was brought by traders, many of whom were dogged in their pursuit of conversions, and of course it's association with the ever infamous Oda Nobunaga, who Nate has already mentioned.

There was, briefly, a small but thriving community of Christians due to Jesuit influence before the isolationist policies, but afterwards a good number were killed or went underground.

EDIT: Actually, I believe the Dutch were one of the few groups who didn't try to impress their faith upon the people they did business with, and so were permitted (to an extremely limited degree) to continue business with Japan, even during the Isolationist Period.

Ah I see. I believe it was the Spanish then who were the ones who spread Christianity around more aggressively.

[Debitt]

The Portuguese as well. They irritated the bakufu enough to get them started on the entire trade banning and crucifixion business, if I remember correctly.

Japan generally liked the Dutch, since their main objective was trade, rather than proselytizing. "Dutch studies" was actually a fairly large area of interest by the time the Meiji Restoration took place.

[Nate]

Although in some ways that is similar to the condition of the U.S. because Protestant Christianity has for the most part been dominant in the U.S.

Not really similar at all.

Puritans fled to America because they hated the Church of England and wanted to go to their own country where they would be free to worship however they wanted. Later, when America became mostly overrun by British colonies and we proclaimed independence, our forefathers knew the reason why a lot of people left England in the first place...dislike of the national religion.

To that end, that's a big reason why the first amendment protects speech and freedom of religion, to prevent a national religion from being established. Yeah, a lot of people were Christian in some form or another, but that was just how the chips fell. While many of the founding fathers were religious, they set out to make a very non-religious government (mostly because they did not want the government to intrude on religion).

In Japan, the reason why everyone was Shinto was BECAUSE a national religion was established. Completely the opposite. Japan wanted everyone to adopt the religion and NOT be free to worship as they pleased, because they wanted to create a cultural identity and inspire loyalty to country. In America, they knew everyone was different and wanted to give everyone freedom ("everyone" at the time meaning white male land-owners, although as far as I know slave owners didn't force their slaves to be any certain religion, but I could be wrong).

Protestant Christianity is dominant in the US just because of circumstance, so it's not similar to Japan at all. Further it's difficult (if not impossible) to compare Catholics and Jews immigrating to America and being discriminated against. Japan is pretty okay with Christianity now. Doesn't mean they'll convert to it, but they don't force Christians there to adhere to their ways. This is in stark contrast to Jews and Catholics in the early days of the country, where if they didn't pretend to be Protestant they were beaten or had their property vandalized.

In 1859 an 11-year-old Catholic boy named Thomas Whall refused to read the Lord’s Prayer and the Ten Commandments during his weekly required exercises at a Boston public school, so assistant principal McLaurin F. Cooke whipped the boy’s hands with a three-foot-long rattan stick, pausing occasionally to give him a chance to begin his recitations. The beating continued for 30 minutes, with the boy’s classmates shouting at him not to give in, but the pain and the blood were too much and he finally relented and agreed to read as instructed.

I don't think you would hear about Japanese people beating a man until he bled just for not going to a shrine, so again, not really a good comparison. Japan these days isn't particularly hostile to Christianity, they just don't really care about it. Kind of like if you walked past a homeless man yelling about how he's the great god Zeus, you wouldn't punch him, but you wouldn't pay any attention to him either.

In fact, Japan tends to actually embrace Christianity to a degree, merely as a symbol of the West without any deeper meaning, though. It just looks cool and foreign to them, similar to how many Americans think the Greek and Roman gods are cool and foreign.

So no, Japan and America are not similar in their religious backgrounds in the slightest.

[Sailor Kenshin]

Also, remember that a lot of Japanese are still worried over H1N1, so a lot of them wear masks. What does this have to do with xenophobia? My uncle and his friend (his friend is Australian but looks a little Mexican) were in a convenience store and the friend sneezed. Really loudly. And everyone. Just. Stared. So if you sneeze and people are worried...yeah.
Tokyo isn't the friendliest of areas. The saying is, you don't need to know Japanese in Tokyo because you don't speak to anyone. Kyoto, on the other hand, is a bit friendlier.

I was told that Japanese wear masks when THEY are sick, so as not to infect others.


But regarding another post: why would a Catholic refuse to say the Our Father and read the Ten Commandments? That's part of our liturgy as well.

Let's not forget that there are Japanese Catholic martyrs AND saints. And personally I am thankful to the early missionaries for spreading Christianity.

[Ante Bellum]

Well, if that was true about the masks, then a lot of people had it. Maybe it was half and half.

[Nate]

But regarding another post: why would a Catholic refuse to say the Our Father and read the Ten Commandments? That's part of our liturgy as well.

The Protestant Ten Commandments are different from the Catholic Ten Commandments, which in turn are also different from the Jewish Ten Commandments.

Example: The first Jewish commandment is, "I am the Lord your God." That's it, nothing else. The second commandment is, "You shall have no other gods before me, you shall not make for yourself an idol."

For Protestants, the first commandment is "You shall have no other gods before me." The second is "You shall not make for yourself an idol."

And then from what I hear, for Catholics the first commandment is entirely "I am the Lord your God, you shall have no other gods before me, you shall not make for yourself an idol."

I think we also differ in that Catholicism splits "You shall not covet your neighbor's wife" and "You shall not covet your neighbor's stuff" into two separate commandments, whereas Jews and Protestants have the two as one commandment.

[Roy Mustang]

from what I hear, for Catholics the first commandment is entirely "I am the Lord your God, you shall have no other gods before me, you shall not make for yourself an idol."

I think we also differ in that Catholicism splits "You shall not covet your neighbor's wife" and "You shall not covet your neighbor's stuff" into two separate commandments, whereas Jews and Protestants have the two as one commandment.

Catholic Ten Commandments:

1. I am the LORD your God. You shall worship the Lord your God and Him only shall you serve. "More or less the same thing that you just said"
2. You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain.
3. Remember to keep holy the Sabbath day.
4. Honor your father and your mother.
5. You shall not kill.
6. You shall not commit adultery.
7. You shall not steal.
8. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
9. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife.
10. You shall not covet your neighbor's goods.

[color="Red"][font="Book Antiqua"]Col. Roy Mustang[/font][/color]

[shooraijin]

Let's not get too far afield on this.

[Sailor Kenshin]

So what's the final verdict on the wearing mask thing?

[Roy Mustang]

They wear mask mostly fear of getting sick and think the mask will help. Over there, they kind of have a fear of getting sick.


[font="Book Antiqua"][color="Red"]Col. Roy Mustang[/color][/font]

[Sailor Kenshin]

Found this on Yahpoo:

Hi,

I'm Japanese.

We wear a white mask because we don't want to spread any germs that we've caught to other people.

For example, when we have a cold, we cough a lot. So we wear a white mask. When we have some allergies, we cough a lot. So we wear a white mask. It's just a simple reason to wear this white mask.

From another web site (this one had pics)

Here in Japan, face masks are a common sight. Visitors often wonder why ordinary people wear what appears to be white surgical masks as they take the subway or walk around town. Face masks have evolved as a kind of courtesy: if you have caught a cold, you wear a mask to avoid spreading the germs to others. Also, masks may help people who suffer from allergies

[Roy Mustang]

Yeah, yeah. That is what they want you to believe. They still have a fear of germs as they were screening people for H1N1 flu over the summer.

If they do wear the mask to not get others sick, there is a lot of sick people in Japan as you saw over the summer with the H1N1 flu and there was not as many cases of people that got it, then what the US and Mexico had it.

When SARS first broke out, you saw people over there wearing mask right and left and then you saw the same thing with the H1N1 flu. They do have a fear of germs and its a fact.

2009_flu_pandemic_in_Japan

Look at the pictures and tell me that wearing mask over there is just ones that are sick?


[font="Book Antiqua"][color="red"]Col. Roy Mustang[/color][/font]

[Sailor Kenshin]

I wonder how xenophobic the people in Tokyo can really be, since it's a pretty big tourist hub?

[ShiroiHikari]

Haven't people in Mexico been wearing face masks too, though?

[Sparx00]

Okay, I've seen this thread a lot lately and I just have to ask, what the heck is Xenophobia??? Is it like the fear of Xenomorphs?

Or am I completely missing the mark on this one?

[uc pseudonym]

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/xenophobia

[Ante Bellum]

A lot of people have. I haven't seen anyone around here wear them, though.
There's a funny story about that, actually. But it isn't on topic. Basically, the H1N1 flu scare is bigger than I though.

[Sparx00]

Thank you UC. I feel much more in the loop now.

[Mr. SmartyPants]

This is in stark contrast to Jews and Catholics in the early days of the country, where if they didn't pretend to be Protestant they were beaten or had their property vandalized.

Indeed! While nowadays, anybody who is "white" is simply "white" (heck even Iranians are becoming the "new white"), it wasn't so similar in the 1920s. Back then it was considered scientific fact that "real whites" came from the northwest European regions as well as protestant. If you were Jew, Catholic, Irish, Italian, anything that wasn't a "WASP", then you were not considered "real white", even though the differences were simply phenotypical. There was an incredible amount of discrimination against the "lesser whites", especially the Jews.

So what is "white" if it keeps on changing? Well... it's something that we keep changing and editing, which makes race nothing more than just an illusion.

[Nate]

So that black dude I saw today wasn't really black, it was an illusion. Got it.

I wonder how xenophobic the people in Tokyo can really be, since it's a pretty big tourist hub?

Well I think for the most part, we've pretty much determined it isn't really xenophobia, just some places have mistrust, and because of Japan's nationalism, whites aren't really privy to most of the inner sanctums of Japanese culture (like a white dude would not become CEO of a Japanese company, or even VP).

Also tourism is a little different from integrating into the society and living there, and Tokyo may be more of a "tourist city" than other smaller places. Tourist cities can often be a lot different from the rest of the surrounding area, look at Las Vegas, the rest of Nevada isn't like that.

As far as the "face masks" thing goes, I kind of agree with Roy. It seems much friendlier to say "Oh, I have something so I don't want to give it to you, so this mask is a courtesy" rather than saying "I'm afraid of your gaijin germs and I don't wanna breathe them in."

[Ante Bellum]

Right. I got a warning pamphlet about H1N1 when I entered Japan. It's a little bit of a dead giveaway when 1) this happens and 2) you can't go anywhere without seeing a mask. Really now, I didn't know it was THAT widespread! /sarcasm

[Mr. SmartyPants]

So that black dude I saw today wasn't really black, it was an illusion. Got it.

We use that term (along with "African American") as a system of classification, but as we all know, physical differences are simply phenotypical. Not in any way genetic.

Back in the day, if you were even 1/32 black, you were still Black... even if you were phenotypically white.

[Nate]

Um.

Phenotypical - Phenotypes result from the expression of an organism's genes as well as the influence of environmental factors and possible interactions between the two.

The definition of phenotypical explicitly STATES it's genetic. Learn what words mean before you go flinging them around please.

Also, of COURSE race is genetic. Otherwise you're saying two white couples could have a black baby, or that a white and a black couple could mysteriously have a child that looked Asian. They don't, because race IS genetic.

Thanks for playing though, our host has some lovely parting gifts for you.

[shooraijin]

like a white dude would not become CEO of a Japanese company, or even VP

Well ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony

[S.M.O.G.]

Well about the masks, I saw a picture of a british guy in japan wearing a mask. Here it is:


Just so this post isn't spam: Thanks, I want to go to Japan someday, so this thread is pretty hepful.

[Bobtheduck]

Well ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony

And if there were any non-Japanese guy I'd want to see head of Sony LESS than Stringer, well...

Sony is an oddball, because they're trying to retain a completely international presence, and, in fact, more international than national. I mean, they have Hollywood movie studios, game studios on a few continents... Stringer was a political move, to gain favor from people having conversations exactly like we're having... Talking about Japanese xenophobia.

I can say I'm not too fond of the guy. I wish that more companies in Japan would have non-Japanese execs, but... just not him. Mostly because he's entirely against the only department of Sony I care about, and he's done all sorts of things that hurt morale among them, and even so, they've STILL sprung back as I guessed they would. The president of a company shouldn't treat one of their departments like that.

In any case, yes, Sony has a non-Japanese president. Sony is the oddball company.

[uc pseudonym]

Also, of COURSE race is genetic. Otherwise you're saying two white couples could have a black baby, or that a white and a black couple could mysteriously have a child that looked Asian. They don't, because race IS genetic.

I think this is a conflict of definitions. No one is going to say that race has nothing to do with genetics. But it is still meaningful to say that race is not genetic, and I would even go so far as to say that it is the scientific consensus. Let me explain what I mean by that.

Someone's race is a label based on physical characteristics. Naturally, these traits come from a person's genetics, but it's not as though there is something at a structural level that identifies a person as, say, black. It's entirely possible for a black person and a white person to have nearly identical genes (far more similar than compared to a person of their own "race"). Or not, it's relatively random. The thing is that the most superficial and easily identifiable traits are also easily inheritable.

I suspect that Ryan was arguing this point because it has been used for a lot of racist arguments in the past. For example, scientists established race as genetic so they could classify blacks as subhuman. What modern genetics tell us is that the traits that make up what we call "black" have absolutely no connection to intelligence or any other trait.

Races are only broad subjective categories based mostly on appearance. As the world becomes more cosmopolitan, these boundaries disappear, because they never really existed in the first place. People will tend to be like their parents, sure, but "race" is just a label for certain genes, no more important than, say, fingernail growth rates.

This also points to the way I suspect he was using the word phenotypes, as seen in the first definition here:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/phenotypes
The key word being "observable."

A much more qualified speaker on this subject would be Stephen Jay Gould, in The Mismeasure of Man. It's not entirely about this aspect of race, but is a fascinating book in its own right.

[Nate]

I can see what you mean, and I didn't mean there was a "race gene" or anything like that. But still, race is inherited, and anything inherited is because of genetic variation. It's silly to say that a certain race is genetically inferior (though I realize that doesn't stop certain people from thinking that), any more than it would be okay to say that men are genetically superior to women (after all, gender is genetic too).

Even so, the fact remains that race ISN'T really an illusion, and refusing to accept the idea of race is actually still fairly racist to me. Different races have different cultures, and it helps to recognize that and celebrate the uniqueness of us all while still recognizing we are all human.

Yeah, race can lend itself to stereotyping, but so can gender, and I don't see anyone saying we should regard gender as an illusion. Men and women are different, yet the same, and it's the same with race, we're all different, yet the same. It just bothers me when people say "There's no such thing as race" because there IS, plain as the noses on our faces.

I dunno what else to say without starting to repeat myself (and I'm sure I've done that a bit already). Maybe it is a bit far to say that ignoring race is racism, and I realize that under the accepted definition of racism that statement doesn't make any sense. But that's how I see it. It's almost like saying "I refuse to accept your differing traditions and history as valid."