Christian Question

[CDLviking]

That is a possible interpretation, but one with which I do not agree. If David meant merely that he would go look at his son's dead body, the verse is rather meaningless. That also conflicts with the fact that the servants were surprised about his actions so soon after his son's dead, because going to see his son's body would be an act of continued mourning rather than joy.

I agree that mine is only one of many possible interpretations.

I think the point is that most people, his servants included would mourn even more after the child's death, not stop mourning all together as David does. The point of the verse becomes that all the mourning in the world can not bring back his son.

[Kisa]

We were talking about this in a Christian ethics class the other day. At one time or another every group of peoples have rejected Christ at some time or another. We all have come from Adam and Eve and Noah and his family. They also have all of creation to see evidence of God from. They are obviously searching too becuase they worship fales idols and gods. So yes, unfortunately I believe they will go to hell if they die.

[CDLviking]

Do you believe that they go to Hell for not being Christian, or for worshipping false gods?

[kaji]

CBWing0,

The passage in Isaiah 7:16 is refering to Christ. One born Sinless, not of a man and woman, but by God and a virgin. Because of this, he was not corrupted by the seed of Adam. Allowing Him to be the perfect, sinless, sacrifice.

Also, because Jesus came to earth as a man, He could still sin, though we know that He would not. Such as when the Devil tempts Christ. That is what I believe this passage is talking about.

For these reasons, I do not believe that you can twist this passage to apply to all children.

[cbwing0]

The passage in Isaiah 7:16 is refering to Christ. One born Sinless, not of a man and woman, but by God and a virgin. Because of this, he was not corrupted by the seed of Adam. Allowing Him to be the perfect, sinless, sacrifice.

That is true, but if you go back to verse 10, it is clear that the prophecy also had a meaning in its own time: "Again the Lord spoke to Ahaz, 'Ask the Lord your God for a sign, whether in the deepest depths or in the highest hights." This was in reference to a specific battle before the time of Christ, so it would have to include the characteristics of a normal child in addition to Christ. You can see this again in verse 16: "But before the boy knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right, the land of the two kings you dread will be laid waste" (Isaiah 7:16, italics added).

For these reasons, I do not believe that you can twist this passage to apply to all children.

There is no twisting involved. On a related note, what do you believe about infant salvation, and why do you believe it?

[kaji]

You are exactly right, this verse is being used to illustrate a point in time (that is, before the Christ will come). The verse is also, very specifically, talking about Jesus; so I don’t see your point that it must then also apply to all children. If it did, then its reference for time would make little sense. Further more the Verse is not even intended to address the matter of an infant’s salvation. Quoting the verse out of context and attempting to include all children in its meaning is the “twistingâ€

[GracefulRocker]

It is my understanding that children are the most innocent creatures on the earth, no matter what they've done, said, heard, or, seen. Kids are still learning right from wrong, so i don't think they are truly accountable for their actions. That's why it's instilled in us at a very early age that if we ask God for forgivness, it will be given, so that when we're older, we know where to go and what to do. How ever, I don't think teens(age 13 and on) apply. We are basically formed completely in our beliefs, and skills, and the rest is up to us. From that point on, it's up to us to make the Right choice.

[cbwing0]

[quote="kaji"]You are exactly right, this verse is being used to illustrate a point in time (that is, before the Christ will come). The verse is also, very specifically, talking about Jesus]
You seem to have ignored the context of the verse, as I pointed out by quoting verse 10. Go back and read the rest of the chapter, and you will see that the prophecy had a meaning for a specific time in the past several hundred years before the birth of Christ. This does not mean that the passage does not also have meaning for all time, as it was also a prophecy of Christ. It is a case of so-called double prophecy, in which a given prophecy may be predictive or more than one event. These are rather common in the Old Testament.

[quote="kaji"]Further more the Verse is not even intended to address the matter of an infant’s salvation. Quoting the verse out of context and attempting to include all children in its meaning is the “twistingâ€

[Ashley]

Gentleman, at this point I believe it would be wisest to agree to disagree here before this thread becomes too heated.

[Bobtheduck]

Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me."

Since David was a righteous man, this clearly implies that he would see the child again in heaven.

If you read psalms and Ecclesiastes, David (as well as another son by Bathsheba, the soon-to-be-king Solomon) did not know of the afterlife. to "go to him" meant merely death. They only knew of Sheol, and knew nothing of the resurrections into life and the second death.

I do, however, hold the belief that people who don't know at all are not held accountable for THAT, but they can be for other things... As far as for what they do understand. I believe that children without that understanding will not be held accountable and will not be sent to hell.

EDIT: Another was referring to the fact that the dead baby was bathsheba's too.

[cbwing0]

Gentleman, at this point I believe it would be wisest to agree to disagree here before this thread becomes too heated.

Fair enough.

If you wish to continue, PM me.

[kaji]

CBWing0,

With the intent to not turn this thread into more of a debate than I already have, I will PM you if I have any thing to add.

Sorry to any one, whom this may have affected.

-kaji

EDIT: Oops, I guess that already has been adressed. ^^

[neoassassin2078]

I believe that all people who are pure an good enter the kingdom of heaven regardless of whether or not they have had exposure to he bible. I believe that people are saved on the basis of their good deeds towards others and belief in the common good. A trifling matter as faith has little to do with a persons kindness. Faith in god is what often leads to people who are motivated by their kindness in their hearts which is in turn the basis of salvation, not just faith alone. Therefore, people who have not heard the word of god can goto heaven just as easily as everyone else, so long as their souls are still well and pure. I can imagine that not as many people do (as faith leads to kindness) but they can still be saved.

[Straylight]

Neoassasin:

1. Don't promote your beliefs. If you want to explore ours, that's fine. Proclaiming that yours are correct, and ours our blashphemous can and will get you banned.
2. Don't stir up arguments. See point one.

I'm not going to ban you, but I do strongly encourage you to think carefully about what you are posting before hand. And please read the FAQ.


-OldPhilosopher

This is your first warning. After three warnings, you will be banned. Please read the FAQs.

[neoassassin2078]

W00T!! That means I still have two more warnings left! My time here may not be quite as fleeting as I once thought.

By the way I don't think that any of my posts are supposed to offend anyone.