A question about Catholics that could anger someone....

[Gypsy]

Just a reminder, the point of this thread was not to debate, but to have questions answered. The initial question that started this discussion was answered, however, kaji has asked another one.

Please be respectful in your comments and if you must argue, feel free to take it off these boards. In fact, I encourage that without question. We have a good number of members who are able, and I assume are willing, to clear up any inquiries about denominations. There is nothing wrong with asking questions if what you really want is an answer, but trying to spark a debate will bring this thread to a quick close.

[DrNic]

Just a reminder, the point of this thread was not to debate, but to have questions answered. The initial question that started this discussion was answered, however, kaji has asked another one.

Please be respectful in your comments and if you must argue, feel free to take it off these boards. In fact, I encourage that without question. We have a good number of members who are able, and I assume are willing, to clear up any inquiries about denominations. There is nothing wrong with asking questions if what you really want is an answer, but trying to spark a debate will bring this thread to a quick close.

Yeah, actually I forgot to add something to the end of the previous post so I'll put it here:

Soz if you feel I'm going too far into the situation (theology an all that), I'm not trying to upset anyone or tell anyone they're wrong, I just thought I might add what I have been taught about the subject. Again PLZ correct me or PM me if you think something I said was wrong. Thanx again.

[Shao Feng-Li]

a lie that it doesn't exist? Or that Catholics dont believe that? sorry u just confused me a bit.

I've heard about purgatory a few times from Catholics. that noone is righteous enough to get to heaven even when saved, we all gotta be cleansed before we can get in

a lie that it doesn't exist? Or that Catholics dont believe that? sorry u just confused me a bit.

of course it doesnt exist. if it did it would be in the bible

[Straylight]

of course it doesnt exist. if it did it would be in the bible

By that same logic, you do not exist, and anything about God's creation not mentioned in the Bible does not exist.

I do not think that the Bible tells us everything. If a book that is about 1400 pages long describes everything, we are living in a very small and simple world.

[JediSonic]

of course it doesnt exist. if it did it would be in the bible

Explain how everything that exists has to be in the bible... especially in light of the fact that some parts of the bible were written by members of the early Church. Where exactly in the bible does it say that nothing can exist outside of the bible?

[CDLviking]

A reply for Kaji

Statues in Churches serve the same purpose as statues in any other place, to remind us of a certain person or event. We remember the saints as examples of people who lived out the Gospel message and who we can immitate in our quest to be more like Christ.

So maritnloyola, you pray to them like asking a fellow Christian to pray for you? So that means you ask them to pray to God for your sick family member (as an example)? And, well, how do they hear you? I know God can listen to prayers because He is omnipotent. So does God give them a special power to hear prayers, too? If that is not what you mean, then can anyone in heaven hear prayers, and you can pray to, say, your dead friend (as another example) and talk to them? I'm just a little confused on that part.

All souls in Heaven participate in the beatific vision, direct relationship with God, nothing is hidden from them. You may ask any soul in Heaven to pray for you.

Actually, I've heard that most people in the middle ages probably DID go to hell seeing as the laying on of hands was abolished, speaking in tongues was forgotten, the bible was made so that it could only be read in latin (not by common people) and you had to pay monks to recieve prayer and get a place in heaven (which I really dont agree with)

Actually the laying on of hands is one of the most integral parts of the Catholic Church and has been preserved since the time of the Apostles, for one thing it is a necessary part in the ordination of a priest. The Bible was originally translated into Latin because it was the language of the common people. It was preserved as the official language of the Church so that everything could be uniform, you could travel anywhere in Europe and still hear the Mass in the same language. Plus, I don't think the literacy rate among the common people back then was anything to brag about, anyone with a formal education learned Latin. Simony, the selling of offices, holy objects, or anything sacred did plague the Church during the middle ages. If you read Dante's Inferno it is one of the things that Dante comes down on the hardest. It is a very serious sin, and any monk or priest who participated in it was seriously wrong. The selling of indulgences which you refer to was never necessary to get a place in heaven, rather it was an attempt by the rich to get out of doing their Christian duty by buying forgiveness (actually the remission of temporal sin, but that's another long theologically complex topic).

More to come on Purgatory. I have to go to Evening Prayer now.

edit: anyone looking for in depth Catholic answer can click on the picture in my sig.

[JediSonic]

Speaking of laying on hands, I just got confirmed last weekend, and part of that ceremony was the sponsor laying his hand on the Confirmandi's right shoulder

[CDLviking]

Okay here comes Purgatory (I cut and pasted this from a PM I sent to someone else, I was kind of tired at the time so there could be some flaws. Please point them out if you see them)

Purgatory is a place where souls go to be purged before entering into heaven. The reason this is necessary is because nothing imperfect may enter heaven (Rev. 21:27, Heb 12:14). Any attachment that we still have to sin at the end of our life must be removed before we can experience the beatific vision (heaven). Therefore Paul says in 1 Cor. 3:15, "If any man's work burn, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire," which is the purging fire of purgatory. We also know that sins can be forgiven after death from Mt. 12:32. You may ask, "If Jesus forgives us, then why do we need to be purged?" The answer can be found in 2 Sam 12:13-14. David confesses his sin to Nathan and God forgives him, but he still punishes David so that his sin can be made right. God is perfectly merciful, but he is also perfectly just, he can't just be one or the other. More evidence for purgatory comes from prayer for the dead. In 2 Tim. 1:16-18 St. Paul prays for his dead friend Onesiphorus, that God show him mercy, and in 2 Maccabees 12:44-46 (this is one of the Catholic books, so it probably won't be in your Bible) we are told to pray for the dead that they might be loosed from their sins. Now it makes no sense to pray for those who are in Hell because they have already chosen against God, and souls in Heaven have no need of our prayers, so there must be a third place where souls await the mercy of God. All souls in Purgatory are destined to eventually reach Heaven.

[chibi_chan]

I have a catholic friend and i don't think that just because a persons a catholic doesn't mean you should look at them differently, or think ther'ye strange for that matter. Just because someone has a different religion than you doesn't mean ther'ye are different, and as a christians we should understand that. Please don't start a fight over this (just wanted to defend my friend^^)

[Vyse]

But David had commited that sin before Jesus came, after Jesus came things were different, He took the punishment for us. And if there was a purgatory, wouldn't it have been refernced a lot more in the Bible? And Paul did pray for God to show mercy on Him, but where does it state that he was in puragtory? I mean praying to God to show mercy on him could also be Paul's way of showing respect for his friend and trying to comfort himself in his passing.

[Straylight]

I think I'll just give my personal opinion on Catholicism for now:

The more you understand about things from the Catholic viewpoint, the more you realise just how compatible the additional doctrine is with the Bible that most other Christians use.

I honestly have no idea whether the additional Catholic doctrine is true or not. I will find that out when I die. How can we prove or disprove the additional doctrine? It's very difficult. The Bible that all Christians use is certainly infallible, but that doesn't necessarily mean that certain additional truths were not left out.

I look forward to Heaven, as I am sure there will be many many surprises.

[CDLviking]

If Paul's friend was in Hell then his prayers are useless. If Paul's friend is in Heaven then he has no need of God's mercy. Thus there would seem to be a third realm where souls still await God's mercy.

Jesus' death opened up Heaven to us and forgave our sins, it did not take away all the suffering that comes along with sin. If it had then no Christians would ever suffer. God is infinitely merciful (forgiveness of sins), and infinitely just (restitution for sin).

Here is a list of verses that can be used to support Purgatory:
Mt. 5:48
Heb 12:14
Jam 3:2
Rev 21:27
1 Jn 5:16-17
Jam 1:14-15
2 Sam 12:13-14
Mt. 5:26
Mt. 12:32
Mt. 12:36
2 Macc 12:44-46 (Dueterocanonical)
1 Cor 3:15
1 Pet 3:18-20; 4:6
2 Tim 1:16-18
1 Cor 15:29-30

[madphilb]

Straylight, thanks for your comment, I was going to interject something as well. Along those lines, there is much about heaven and how it works we don't know, and what we do is mostly from less clear sections of the Bible (such as Revelations). I'm pretty cocky, but not so much as to say I know what Heaven looks like or what exists there.

We should all consider the following:

1) ALL sects of Christianity have had at one time or another those who where less than wonderfull, people are imperfect and all have fallen short of God's Glory.

2) There are things that aren't worth dividing the body over. I don't agree with everything that Catholics believe as a group, but the same can be said of other denominations as well. Most of the things I don't agree over aren't worth fighting about when there is so much more we can do together.


I think this thread has the ability to make non-Catholics aware of things we've been lead to believe over the years.

Along the same lines there are those who could (and would) attack Penticostals/Charasmatics in a similar way (and there are those who are just as negitive and feel that they are going to hell as some feel qbout Catholics).


Let me leave you with this thought:

The body is a unit, though it is mad up of many parts; and though all its parts are many, they form one body. So it is with Christ. For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body -- whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free -- and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.

Now the body is not made up of one part but of many. If the foot should say, "Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body," it would not for that reason cease to be part of the body. And if the ear should say, "Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body," it would not for that reason cease to be part of the body. If the whole body were and eye, where would the sense of hearing be? If the whole body were an ear, where would the sense of smell be? But in fact God has arranged the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be. If they were all one part, where would the body be? As it is, there are many parts, but one body.

The eye cannot say to the hand, "I don't need you!" And the had cannot say to the fee, "I don't need you!" On the contrary, those parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, and the parts htat we think are less honorable we treat with special honor. And the parts that are unpresentable are treeated with special modesty, while our presentale parts need no special treatment. But God has combined the members of the body and has given greater honor to the parts that lacked it, so that there should be no division in the body, but that its parts should have equal concern for each other. If one part suffers, every part sufffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it. (1 Corinthians 12:12-26)


While specifically Paul was writing about members of a "church body" in those verses, I feel they just as rightly fit into the whole Body of believers (i.e. - denominations).

[JediSonic]

Okay, I just want to make sure we all have one thing straight: CATHOLICS ARE CHRISTIANS! Catholics were the first christians! We used to be THE Christian Church!

I'm not sure where this idea that Catholics are not christians came from, but it is 100% false.

[Straylight]

I'm not sure where this idea that Catholics are not christians came from...

Directly from Lucifer the deciever, who strives to sow disunity among Christians.

Furthermore, I've heard talk about the idea that some Catholics are not Christians.

At the core of every Christian denomination is a creed, which always contains the Gospel. Therefore you need to be a Christian before you can be a member of a Christian denomination. Anyone who says they are Catholic (or a Protestant, Baptist etc.) but who has not accepted the Gospel, is not a member of that denomination, IMO.

[JediSonic]

Well put, straylight

[Vyse]

I never once claimed that Cathloics weren't Chrstian, I'm just saying that they belive in some things that I don't agree with, but anyone who belives that Jesus is the only way to the one and only God is a Christian, thats what I belive.

[CDLviking]

I don't think he meant you Vyse.

[Marie-Novelle]

I never once claimed that Cathloics weren't Chrstian, I'm just saying that they belive in some things that I don't agree with, but anyone who belives that Jesus is the only way to the one and only God is a Christian, thats what I belive.

John 14:6-7
Jesus told him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me. If you had known who I am, then you would have known who my Father is. From now on you know him and have seen him!"


Noting this, why would anyone pray to anyone else except Jesus? That's totally going against God's Word.


Matthew 6:5-15
"And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.

This, then, is how you should pray:

Our Father in heaven,
Hallowed be your name,
Your kingdom come,
Your will be done
On earth as it is in heaven.
Give us today our daily bread.
Forgive us our debts,
As we also have forgiven our debtors.
And lead us not into temptation,
But deliver us from the evil one."

For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins."

John 15:15-17
"I no longer call you servants, because a master doesn't confide in his servants. Now you are my friends, since I have told you everything the Father told me. You didn't choose me. I chose you. I appointed you to go and produce fruit that will last, so that the Father will give you whatever you ask for, using my name. I command you to love each other."

[CDLviking]

All prayer originates from and finds its end in God. It is God who gives us the desire to pray, and we respond to him. Every prayer is directed to God. When we ask the saints for prayer, we ask them to pray to God on our behalf.

Intercessory prayer is biblical
Rom 15:30
Col 4:3
1 Thess 5:25
2 Thess 1:11
2 Thess 2:31
Eph 6:18-19
Tob 12:12 (Dueterocanonical)
Rev 5:8
The only difference is that the saints are in Heaven and have a closer relationship to God.

If you don't like the phrase "praying to saints" then don't call it that. Call it "asking for the prayers of the saints" or something. Don't get hung up on the semantics, because we mean completely seperate things when we speak of prayer to God and prayer to saints.

[Icarus]

Edit: CDL said it first and in less space.

[Marie-Novelle]

All prayer originates from and finds its end in God. It is God who gives us the desire to pray, and we respond to him. Every prayer is directed to God. When we ask the saints for prayer, we ask them to pray to God on our behalf.

Intercessory prayer is biblical
Rom 15:30
Col 4:3
1 Thess 5:25
2 Thess 1:11
2 Thess 2:31
Eph 6:18-19
Tob 12:12 (Dueterocanonical)
Rev 5:8
The only difference is that the saints are in Heaven and have a closer relationship to God.

The biblical definition of "saint" is different from the Catholic definition though... Saints are people who put their trust in Jesus for their salvation, made holy by His blood shed on the cross (that means us! ^_^). I don't think Paul was talking to dead people to pray for him...

Hebrews 10:10
And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

[JediSonic]

Marie, correct me if I'm wrong but you're saying that its okay to ask sinners for help but not the Saints in heaven??

[DrNic]

Umm...is it just me or does this discusion seem to be turning into a bit of an arguement. Perhaps we should all just agree that each denominations beliefs do differ from that of other denominations (for instance, at our church we never baptise new born babys but they do at other churchs). I don't really know much about other churchs traditions and whatnot but I do know thats its unhealthy to argue about them. Can't we all just talk as friends? Just my two cents... (man I love that phrase)

[Toki-chan]

Umm...is it just me or does this discusion seem to be turning into a bit of an arguement. Perhaps we should all just agree that each denominations beliefs do differ from that of other denominations (for instance, at our church we never baptise new born babys but they do at other churchs). I don't really know much about other churchs traditions and whatnot but I do know thats its unhealthy to argue about them. Can't we all just talk as friends? Just my two cents... (man I love that phrase)

here here!!! (is that the right spelling....?)
anyway, I just finished reading this post, and I have not known that much about cathloics cause I'm chucrh of God, but this has changed my thoughts on alot of stuff when It comes to the cathilic Church. I hope you keep this post going so other questions can be answered and others can find out that catholism isn't that diffenrent than other denomintions!
(so no more fight please....)

[Straylight]

That's exactly why I'd like to see this thread kept open, because a lot of the posts so far have been extremely informative.

If this thread turns into a flame war though, it will be locked. The discussion has been fairly civil up to now, which is good.

[CDLviking]

here here!!! (is that the right spelling....?)
anyway, I just finished reading this post, and I have not known that much about cathloics cause I'm chucrh of God, but this has changed my thoughts on alot of stuff when It comes to the cathilic Church. I hope you keep this post going so other questions can be answered and others can find out that catholism isn't that diffenrent than other denomintions!
(so no more fight please....)

Exactly the reason I think it should stay open. Let's try to be charitable, not defensive or offensive.

That having been said.

The biblical definition of "saint" is different from the Catholic definition though... Saints are people who put their trust in Jesus for their salvation, made holy by His blood shed on the cross (that means us! ^_^). I don't think Paul was talking to dead people to pray for him...

I know that when St. Paul talks about saints in his epistles he is referring to the members of the Church. I tried, perhaps unsuccessfully, to illustrate the difference in terms in the last line of my post. My point was, the only difference between asking a living member of the Church for prayer and a "S"aint (We'll use a big "S" to tell difference, how is that?), is that the Saints are in heaven and have a closer more perfected relationship to God.

By the way Icarus, I thought your post was very good as well, you should have left it up.

[JediSonic]

Sorry if my last post was little too... retaliatory

It just seems odd to me that someone would have a problem with praying to the Saints if they dont have a problem with prayer requests to those still on earth.

[Marie-Novelle]

I know that when St. Paul talks about saints in his epistles he is referring to the members of the Church. I tried, perhaps unsuccessfully, to illustrate the difference in terms in the last line of my post. My point was, the only difference between asking a living member of the Church for prayer and a "S"aint (We'll use a big "S" to tell difference, how is that?), is that the Saints are in heaven and have a closer more perfected relationship to God.

How can dead people pray for us though?

[Marie-Novelle]

Marie, correct me if I'm wrong but you're saying that its okay to ask sinners for help but not the Saints in heaven??

The saints in heaven don't have a body so how can anyone ask them to pray? Their souls are asleep in heaven and their bodies will remain in the grave until the rapture occurs.


1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. Therefore encourage each other with these words.