Christian Question

[AnimePriest]

i have been wondering what happened to people that died in countries where Christianity wasn't present yet. did they go to hell even though they didn't get a chance to hear about it before dying?

[cbwing0]

It is my belief that, with few exceptions, those born in countries without the gospel, and those who have never heard it in general, go to hell. I believe this based on Romans 1:18-20:

"The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse" (italics added).

Since God has provided the basic knowledge of his existence through nature and the internal instigation of the Holy Spirit, "men are without excuse."

Of course, many more people will be saved if they hear the gospel of Jesus Christ; therefore the testimony of nature should not be used an excuse by us to be lazy in evangelism.

[Mangafanatic]

Hey! Great Questions! Okay, this is an exerp from the first chapter of Romans:

For (36) the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who (37) suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
19 because (38) that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
20 For (39) since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, (40) being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

God speaks first through the image of himself which is in others and then through the creation which he made. If we think back to Abraham who lived in a land of TERRIBLE immorality, I doubt people were knocking on his door giving him "Three sets to Salvation" pamphlets. Obviously, God drew him to himself by other means. God has also used dreams to speak to those living in ignorance (If you want references-- I'm sure I can find some.) I know this is only a tiny answer and if no one else volunteers an answer I'll come back and give a more detailed reply. I'd like to give someone with more knowledge than I a chance to answer.

I hope the Romans passage helped. I hate to even try to commentate on someone like Paul.

[blueraven]

I can't really say much because I am still working on my answer for myself. But I do believe God always gives everyone a chance. Even if someone has no human contact the proof for God's exsitances is seen all around us in nature. They may not have a complete understanding, but then who really does? But I believe that God always gives everyone a chance to know Him. That is why I strongly believe that we all should do our part in spreading the Word of God so we know we've planted the seed.

[Mangafanatic]

By the way, cbwing0 and I quoted the same passage-- just different translations. I was writting mine out while he was posting his. sorta weird.

[Spiritsword]

I agree, you can see God's majesty all around in nature. So you see God's majesty, even though you haven't been exposed to the Word, and that gives you a chance for salvation through believing in God?

What about Jesus Christ being the only way to the Father and to salvation? Believing in God isn't enough to be given salvation. Even Satan and his demons believe in God. One has to accept Jesus Christ as their Savior, and His blood as payment for their sins. So how can people who have never been exposed to the Bible or heard of Jesus know about Him (Jesus) specifically and the nescesity of claiming Him as their Savior just by seeing the glory of nature?

This is something I have trouble with and don't fully understand, so I'm glad you brought it up, AnimePriest.

Another question I have is what about children who die, who may have been too young to fully understand and accept Christ's sacrifice. Infants, for example. Where do they go?

[cbwing0]

So how can people who have never been exposed to the Bible or heard of Jesus know about Him (Jesus) specifically and the nescesity of claiming Him as their Savior just by seeing the glory of nature?

That is precisely why the testimony of nature doesn't free us from spreading the gospel. However, through nature, one can know that there is an almight God]Another question I have is what about children who die, who may have been too young to fully understand and accept Christ's sacrifice. Infants, for example. Where do they go?[/quote]
The bible is not clear on this point, and there are many views on the matter; but suffice it to say that they do not go to hell. Isaiah 7:16 imples that young children are not held accountable for their sin because at this time they do not even know the difference between good and evil: "But before the boy knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right, the land of the two kings you dread will be laid waste."

If a child died before this time, be would be the same as someone who had not sinned, and thus he would go to heaven.

There is also a passage (that I can't seem to find at the moment), in which David mourns the loss of an infant son, and expressed confidence that he will see him in heaven.

We can't say with confidence how the process works, but rest assured that infants are not sent to hell if they die before the age at which they know the difference between good and evil.

[Mangafanatic]

Hmmm. . . referring to the children who die before they can fully understand salvation-- I"ve always been taught a concept called the age of accountablility. By this, children who can't understand the concept of salvation by Jesus can't be condemned for rejecting him. I'll ask my pastor for some scripture references.

[Gypsy]

Believe it or not, but there is a lot of room for debate with this question. Please, no matter what your belief, try to keep it structured, respectful, and mature like those who have already replied. Thanks!

[CDLviking]

The basic rule is that those who by no fault of their own have not recieved the word of God it will not be held against them. This is known as invincible ignorance. This does not however mean that all people who have not been evangelized get a free ride, only that it is not held against them. We really don't know what will become of them, the only thing that we can do is trust in the Lord's perfect mercy and perfect justice. The same would also hold true for unbaptized infants, since it was by no fault of their own that they did not recieve the chance to become Christians.

[Azier the Swordsman]

Good question: Here's something to consider:

There was a man my family used to know (he passed away into eternity a couple of years ago) who went on mission trips to places that were completely seperated from the rest of the world - literally, there was no way these tribes could have had any contact with the modern world whatsoever. We're talking out in the middle of nowhere. However - the shocking thing was - these people actually worshipped God. The reason being, because they were so primitive, without any possible contact with the rest of the world, God had chosen to reveal himself to them, and they had a chance to recieve eternal life.

It's my personal belief that no human being will ever die without having a chance to recieve Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior of their lives - and it will be the most important decision they will ever make.

I believe babies and very young children automatically go to heaven because they are completely innocent and don't know any better.

[Technomancer]

Personally, I do not believe that those ignorant of the Gospel go to hell as a matter of necessity. To me, that is something that I do not find to be compatible with the mercy of God.

[Azier the Swordsman]

Personally, I do not believe that those ignorant of the Gospel go to hell as a matter of necessity. To me, that is something that I do not find to be compatible with the mercy of God.

I have to agree with that. Though I personally believe what I already stated, if somehow there are people that never get a chance to hear the gospel, to send them to hell for not knowing any better would be unfair, and God is a just God.

[The Grammarian]

CB, your latter statement conflicts with your former. In the former, you say that those who do not hear go to hell. In the latter, you say that they will be judged according to what they have heard.

I agree with the latter statement, personally. I think Jesus' words in Luke 12:48 are telling: "[B]ut the one who did not know it, and committed deeds worthy of a flogging, will receive but few. And from everyone who has been given much shall much be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more."

[Ingemar]

Can we argue that those who evangelize to those who would otherwise never hear of Christ are doing them an great harm, since now that they have heard the Gospel, they are dammed if they don't act according to it?

But of course, this is assuming the hearers of the word are not moved by the message of the evangelizers.

Is it best that some people never hear of Christ in the first place?

[skynes]

As far as I know ppl are not condemned simply because of never hearing Christ but of breaking the law, the 10 commandments.

It says in Romans (I'd need to look up where) that sin is not punished where there is no law. As a young child as no way of understanding what adultery or idolatry is he is not held accountible for sin. Does it not say somewhere that God said " I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion"

My own belief is this: God is not willing that ANY should perish but that all come to repentance right? So for Him to NOT try to reach someone is a bit contradictory isnt it? So I think that God will use one method or another to reach someone, be it by missionaries, dreamsn, visions. Even their own conscience!

I heard one story of a man in an isolated tribe who looked up at the stars and said "I know you're out there, let me know you" or words to that effect. Then he got a feeling to travel to another village, which he did, and thee were a bunch of missionaries at that village - he heard the gospel and got saved!

[blueraven]

As I've said before, I am still searching for my own answers to these questions. And my searching I mean to learn them for myself from God, not to go by what everyone else says. That way I know what I believe and why I believe it to be so.

I don't know if these verses have anything to deal with the topic but while I was searching for a verse (in which I still have yet to find) these verses did "pop" out and I feel I should say them.

Matthew 6:30-34 (KJV)
Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass in the field, which today is and tomorrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith?
Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we ear? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?
(For after all these things to the Gentiles seek: ) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.
But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.
Take therefore no thought for the morrow; for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.

I've never looked at this verse in this light but I it say that God knows what we need, and we need Him. I truely do not believe He would ever not give someone a chance to know Him as others have already stated.

Matthew 9:12-13 (KJV)
But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that are whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.
But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Matthew 10:19-20 (KJV)
But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak.
For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.

Matthew 19:26 (KJV)
But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

Again, I'm not sure what relation these verses might have with the topic of this thread, I felt inclined to post then and thus I have. There is one last thing I'd like to say inregard to what another member has said. But I fear if I say it, it may start something up between demoninations and that is the last thing we all want.

[kaji]

This may sound harsh, but the reality of it (all be it a debatable one) is that when men first sinned in the Garden of Eden they covered all of humanity with sin. You are not born clean, and then sin, you are born (unknowingly) into sin, and then need to be cleaned through Christ’s blood. Because of this we deserve death and deserve an eternity in Hell, even as we are first born. The Bible does say that every man will have his time in the seat of judgment. Though, through Gods mercy you may still be saved, the wage of sin is death and be sure that is what we all deserve. It’s Only Christ’s Blood that covers us and saves us from that condemnation. The Bible says in John 14:6 – “Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.â€

[cbwing0]

Let me begin by quoting myself :

There is also a passage (that I can't seem to find at the moment), in which David mourns the loss of an infant son, and expressed confidence that he will see him in heaven.

I finally found the passage in question. It is 2 Samuel 12:21-23: "His [David's] servants asked him, 'Why are you acting this way? While the child was alive, you fasted and wept, but now that the child is dead, you get up and eat!' He answered, 'While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept. I thought, 'Who knows? The Lord may be gracious to me and let the child live.' But now that he is dead, why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me."

Since David was a righteous man, this clearly implies that he would see the child again in heaven.

CB, your latter statement conflicts with your former. In the former, you say that those who do not hear go to hell. In the latter, you say that they will be judged according to what they have heard.

I apologize, for it was a poor choice of words. What I meant was that those who do not hear the gospel will be held accountable for what they have been given, namely the testimony of nature and of the Holy Spirit. This is given to all men everywhere, thus it is just to hold them accountable for accepting or rejecting it.

I agree with the latter statement, personally. I think Jesus' words in Luke 12:48 are telling: "[B]ut the one who did not know it, and committed deeds worthy of a flogging, will receive but few. And from everyone who has been given much shall much be required]And Likewise I agree with your statement. In addition to the verses you quoted, there is a strong biblical basis for believing that there will be greater and lesser punishments in hell. The case of Judas is a good example: "The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him. But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born" (Matthew 26:24). If Judas was bound for heaven, or even some sort of general punishment in hell, it would not have been said that, "It would be better for him if he had not been born."

Can we argue that those who evangelize to those who would otherwise never hear of Christ are doing them an great harm, since now that they have heard the Gospel, they are dammed if they don't act according to it?

I would argue that those who are are not inclined to accept the gospel upon hearing it are the same people who would not accept the testimony of nature and of their own consciences.

If you want to tack another heavily debated topic onto this growing thread, how about Predestination.

I'm up for it. God's onmiscience in this--or any other--matter has never really bothered me, because I believe that knowledge is not to be confused with causation. If I know that someone is in danger by making a bad decision, all I can do is warn them of that danger; and God has done just that through his Word, along with the testimonies of nature/conscience.

[kaji]

CBwing0, do you believe that Davids son was sinless, and that is why David could have hope of seeing him in heaven? Or Do you believe that Davids son was only spared through Gods mercy and his love for David, dispite still being coved with sin?

Note: Christ was not present in the world at this time, but this does not mean that God does not still extent his hand of mercy to those who dont deserve it.


When I was talking about Predestination I was refering to the doctrine that God has foreordained all things, especially that God has Elected certain souls to eternal salvation.
I suppose it is best that we dont concern our selves with such things, as they would surely drive a sane man other wise.

[cbwing0]

CBwing0, do you believe that Davids son was sinless, and that is why David could have hope of seeing him in heaven?

I belive that sin was not counted against the child, because he died before the "age of accountability" (that is, that age at which one first knows the difference between good and evil).

As for predestination, we can leave it alone if you like.

[Technomancer]

Can we argue that those who evangelize to those who would otherwise never hear of Christ are doing them an great harm, since now that they have heard the Gospel, they are dammed if they don't act according to it?

But of course, this is assuming the hearers of the word are not moved by the message of the evangelizers.

Is it best that some people never hear of Christ in the first place?

I would say that there is a difference between hearing the gospel and knowing the gospel.

[JediSonic]

I haven't read every post in this thread, as I am rather busy and don't have time right now, but I will say this:

I agree with the people who say that 1) no-one is automatically damned because they didn't hear about God in their earthy life and 2) neither are babies

[kaji]

CBwing0, where in the bible does it mention an "age of accountability"?

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: 13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. 15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. 16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. 17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) 18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

There is no exception made.

[Retten]

Good question animepriest! I would have to say that some do go to hell and some don't.

1. If you have never herd the message of Christ (say your part of some remote tribe)
and you do not practice pagan rituals then yes I believe you are spared and go to heaven
2. If you have never hear of Christ but you are practicing a pagan religion then I believe that you will go to hell because frankly believing in anything else than Jesus is just a means for the devil to use you
3. I believe that children and babies are spared simply because they can't really discern things yet and are mainly influenced by their parents (I sincerely hope I'm not wrong on this one because if so I feel very sorry for all those babies that have been lost do to abortion)

[kaji]

Bare in mind that those who are "lost" due to abortion have actualy been intentionaly Killed.

Also, I just love that little stick figure Guy in your sig!!! What a determined little fellow. ^^

[Gypsy]

Ok, I have to do my peacekeeping duties here and comment.

This is fast turning into a debate rather than a "this is what I believe and why ..." thread. I think it's great that so many of you know where you stand on such a question, and I don't want to appear to undermine anyone's beliefs - however, CAA is not the best place to debate such things.

While the staff seems to be constantly tossing people over to Theology Web, we're not just referring people there for the fun of it. We encourage members and brothers and sisters in Christ to know what you believe and why, and that's why we have an affiliated forum specifically for these matters.

You're also very, very welcome to post links to your threads at Theology Web. Also, we have a very lovely PM system that you may utilize if you'd rather go "one on one."

Thanks, everyone!

[kaji]

Tadashii sumimasen.

Soreja!!!

Right, sorry for the trouble.

See you!!!

[CDLviking]

It is 2 Samuel 12:21-23: "His [David's] servants asked him, 'Why are you acting this way? While the child was alive, you fasted and wept, but now that the child is dead, you get up and eat!' He answered, 'While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept. I thought, 'Who knows? The Lord may be gracious to me and let the child live.' But now that he is dead, why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me."

I interpreted this verse rather differently. I think the point is that David fasted so that God might spare his son, but now that his son is dead there is nothing he can do. "I will go to him," not in the figurative sense as in meeting him after death, but in the litteral sense of going to his son's dead body, "but he will not return to me," meaning, now that he is dead he will not come back to life.

Of course I don't disagree that either of them are in Heaven, I just don't think this verse illustrates that.

[cbwing0]

"I will go to him," not in the figurative sense as in meeting him after death, but in the litteral sense of going to his son's dead body, "but he will not return to me," meaning, now that he is dead he will not come back to life.

That is a possible interpretation, but one with which I do not agree. If David meant merely that he would go look at his son's dead body, the verse is rather meaningless. That also conflicts with the fact that the servants were surprised about his actions so soon after his son's dead, because going to see his son's body would be an act of continued mourning rather than joy.

CBwing0, where in the bible does it mention an "age of accountability"?

Although the bible does not use those exact words, it does mention a time in early childhood in which a child cannot tell the differnce between good and evil (see the Isaiah 7:16 verse quoted earlier). Since the most basic aspect of original sin is knowing the difference between good and evil (the sin that came into the world through one man mentioned in Romans 5), it is reasonable to assume that young children are not held accountable for this, or any other, sin.

If you want to close this thread, be my guest; however, I will not be able to continue the debate on TheologyWeb. I really don't have time to debate during the school year, and I don't really care to join another forum.