What would you do? (Important Christian question)

[Momo-P]

Someone I know is spreading false teachings about God. He says that good people go to heaven--even if they don't believe.

I told him that's not true, I brought up how no one gets to the Father without the Son and brought up several passages supporting salvation through Christ...but he refuses to listen. He insists that, while we're saved through Jesus, you still don't need to believe in Him in order to go to heaven. That "We as Christians are judged even harder than the rest of the world, as they are naive to the Word, and we know it. Members of other religons are naive, and thus cannot help their system of beliefs."

But I can't help but feel that's complete bull. Yes there are people who go through life not knowing Jesus...what happens to them then? Nobody except God Himself knows. I mean, God is completely just and holy. Whatever decision He makes towards these people will be the right one...why not just trust Him? I mean sheesh, for all we know, He might reveal Himself to these people without us knowing (I mean most of these cases involve people separated from the real world, so we don't know what they see and don't see).

But either way, that's really not the focus of this problem. At the end of the day, there are VERY few people who go through life and never hear about God. Somewhere along the way, they all see or hear about Him in some way, so to try and say "well they're naive"...um. This isn't thousands of years ago. It's very easy for people to travel and spread news today...plus most schools do teach about other religions.

I pointed out all the obvious...how you're not suppose to have other gods besides the true Lord and whatnot, but...he just says I'm wrong. In fact the whole reason this all got started was because of a Christian club. He comes in and starts saying not just Christians go to heaven...I had to speak up. I told him I didn't want to get into an argument (because we've fought about this before), but I wasn't going to let the wrong thing be taught to people. Especially since he didn't even bother to say "some Christians believe otherwise", he just treated his word like law.

Needless to say? "We've had this discussion before. If you wont let the wrong thing be taught, dont speak on this matter."

Seeing as I'm reading Acts right now, all that did was give me major flashbacks to Stephen being told to shut his mouth. In the end I haven't backed down, I mean...these are young Christians and junk here! It's bad enough to speak the wrong things to begin with, but with them? The fact that some other people believe this too and are supporting him all the way...*shakes head* I mean, what do you do? I have the authority to tell him to stop and/or kick him out, but...I don't know if that would be a good thing to do.

Plus I'm still waiting for the huge "not all Christians are good people" argument. There's that passage where I believe Jesus talks about seperating the sheep and goats (the whole "whatever you did for the least of my brethen" thing I think it is) and how, in short:
A person may be Christian, but they still may deny doing something good for people. Therefore they get sorted in the evil pile. Meanwhile on the other side, someone may not be Christian, but they did something good for people, so they're good. They get sorted into the holy pile.

Truthfully I believe this passage is talking about something else, but the last time we had this argument, that got brought up as "proof" that good people go to heaven.

[ShiroiHikari]

Well, for one thing, works don't save a person-- in other words, being a do-gooder doesn't get you a ticket through the Pearly Gates. The only way is through Jesus Christ.

Now, if someone says they are a Christian, but does evil things, then...well, judge the tree by its fruits, as they say. Jesus says that some people will come to Him and say, "Lord, Lord", and He will say that He never knew them. I think this is what He's referring to-- people who slap the label "Christian" on themselves but do not truly know or serve Christ.

If someone knows and serves Christ and slips up from time to time, that doesn't mean they get put in the "evil" pile and sent to hell. If that's the case, why did Christ even die to begin with? There is no condemnation for those who are truly in Christ.

As for explaining these things to this person, well...it sounds like his heart is already closed to it. You can show him the truth and explain it, but until he opens his heart to it, the seed won't grow. Still, it doesn't hurt to try.

Also, if he's misleading people, especially "baby" Christians, then it's probably a good idea to ask him to leave. Jesus didn't put up with false teaching and neither should we.

[bakura_fan]

I agree to ask him to leave. If anyone asks why, just tell them the truth. I sent you a few pm's. Hope they help.

[Amzi Live]

I agree with ShiroiHikari.
I'll be praying for God to help you make the right decision.

[LadyRushia]

Yeah, if you're the one in authority in this club and he's acting like he has the right to speak out in that manner, as if what he says is the truth as opposed to asking questions, then it'd be best to ask him to either say what he wants in a better way or leave. Like Shiroi said, Jesus doesn't tolerate false teachers (and they are one of my personal pet peeves) and it's never good to confuse "baby Christians."

If, after explaining to him that he can challenge and ask questions and the like, he continues to behave that way and you have to kick him out, do it in private. You know, don't make a scene, etc.

Shiroi pretty much covered my other thoughts.

[Danderson]

Well, 1st off I'd say u did the right thing by confronting him about this (Looking at ur post, I'm assuming u did it gently).....My suggestion would to first come before God in (either or both) the Word and in prayer and just ask Him to reveal to you what He thinks you should do....

[Peanut]

I agree with what everyone is saying here. If he continues to make a scene go ahead and kick him out the group. Also, I'd suggest that you pray for him seeing as how I don't think arguing with him will change anything.

If you do get backed into a corner and are forced to defend your position ask him to define what good is. He can't simply say "good people go to heaven" without first definining what good really is. The definition can't be subjective otherwise you could make a case that Hitler or any mass murderer could get into heaven since in someone's eyes what they did was good (and I get the feeling these are the kind of individuals he'd exclude from getting into heaven). Then explain to him that good is that which is like God and that the only way a person (being a fallen individual) can be good (or become like God) is through God working in them, and for God to do this they have to be willing to let him (in otherwords, they have to follow him).

[Yuen Fei Lung]

Yeah, as everyone else has said, if he's going to continue to cause problems then it's time to ask him to leave. I think you need to make it clear to him that he is welcome to be in the club but if he's not going to respect Christian teachings then he has no business being there (because his only business seems to be to cause trouble).

[creed4]

Pray for him. The others are right, if he is causing problem he should be removed, but always present the truth in love. If you want some scriptures on the issue just PM me.

[termyt]

I would not kick him out unless he is being completely unreasonable and disruptive when differing opinions are presented. If he denies the authority of scripture then he is no follower of God and should not be allowed any place of real or perceived authority in the group. If this is a bone of contention in the group, I would recommend that the group develops a statement of belief and then enforces that statement.

A good place to start is by looking at various mission statements of the churches you attend and the Nicene Creed: [quote="the council in Nicea"]We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,
and was made man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate] (note that “catholic and apostolic” are words with specific meanings and are not a specific endorsement of only the churches and denominations that have come to use those terms to define themselves).

The creed is probably a little heavier than a Christian group would like to adopt, but my point is that your mission statement must be based in scripture, that is that there is one name under heaven by which we must be saved (Acts 4:12). If you can not agree on even that, then you are not a Christian group – at least not by any useful or consistent definition of the term “Christian.”. I’m not sure how you read the New Testament, come to a faith in Jesus Christ and then say that faith is unnecessary. That idea is not supported by scripture and isn’t even very logical.

I would venture that there is truth in the statement that good people go to heaven. The problem is in who gets to define good.
Mark 10:18 "Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone.
We are only able to judge actions. We get a hint of a man’s heart by the fruit he produces, but his true heart is a mystery to us. God, on the other hand, knows our hearts and will judge us accordingly. It is our faith that saves us – no amount of good deeds will undue or bad ones.

Romans 2:12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God judges everyone's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

So, those who do not know of Christ or the Law can become a Law to themselves and will be judged accordingly (again, God cares only for what is in our hearts). However, once one has been made aware of the Law, how can he go on as though he was ignorant? And once one has been made aware of the Gospel, how can he choose to ignore it for his own desires? Ignorance may indeed be bliss – if you happen to live a life on your own that meets with the requirements of the Law, but once it is lost, it can not be regained.

To hear the message of Jesus is to be presented with a choice. Accept it and enter into a relationship with Him or reject Him for a life without Him. I believe those who are truly a Law unto themselves would immediately rejoice upon hearing the truth and not reject it in hopes of continuing doing whatever they please so long as they appear “good” to the eyes around them.

If ignorance is truly bliss, why did Jesus come at all? Why did He command us to spread His gospel to the entire world? Was He looking to condemn the world by forcing them to accept or reject Him when they were doing just fine with out Him? Or did He come to a world that was all dark and lost and in desperate need of a savior?

[Paul]

Momo-P,

Should you ask this person to leave the group? If this person is causing others to fall away, and refuses to hold to scriptural biblical teaching, then by all means, put him out!The Apostle Paul was clear on this in Romans 16:17.

As I read you problem, I saw you have already taken other reasonable steps. You have tested the spirits, to see if they are of God. (1 John 1:4). You have looked to see if the fruits of the spirit are operating in his life. (Gal. 5:22-23) You have shown him scripture to show he is wrong in a group (Matt 18:15-17). Mark 16:11 Tells us to shake the dust off our feet as a testimony to those who refuse to hear the gospel. Jesus drove out the money changers, because of their actions.

Your whole case must be backed with scripture and I think you have done this, from what I can tell. If he is refusing to ignore the word of God, then put him out. Jesus said it is better to cut of the hand that sins than to let the whole body burn. He was talking about the church. It's better to remove a few, then to let all go down in flames. He may take a few with him, but don't worry. Allow God to bring them back. But stand firm on the scriptures you know are true and don't waver. The important thing to remember is when you are in authority, and in the case of your Christian club, you are the leader and shepherd and are responsible for your flock. A good shepherd drives away the wolves. The bible tells us David, as a Shepherd, saw protecting his flock so important, he was willing to kill a bear, and later a giant, to save them.

If you need further scriptures, PM me. I'll dig up what ever you need.

Paul

[Dante]

Someone I know is spreading false teachings about God. He says that good people go to heaven--even if they don't believe.

I told him that's not true, I brought up how no one gets to the Father without the Son and brought up several passages supporting salvation through Christ...but he refuses to listen. He insists that, while we're saved through Jesus, you still don't need to believe in Him in order to go to heaven. That "We as Christians are judged even harder than the rest of the world, as they are naive to the Word, and we know it. Members of other religons are naive, and thus cannot help their system of beliefs."

But I can't help but feel that's complete bull. Yes there are people who go through life not knowing Jesus...what happens to them then? Nobody except God Himself knows. I mean, God is completely just and holy. Whatever decision He makes towards these people will be the right one...why not just trust Him? I mean sheesh, for all we know, He might reveal Himself to these people without us knowing (I mean most of these cases involve people separated from the real world, so we don't know what they see and don't see).

But either way, that's really not the focus of this problem. At the end of the day, there are VERY few people who go through life and never hear about God. Somewhere along the way, they all see or hear about Him in some way, so to try and say "well they're naive"...um. This isn't thousands of years ago. It's very easy for people to travel and spread news today...plus most schools do teach about other religions.

I pointed out all the obvious...how you're not suppose to have other gods besides the true Lord and whatnot, but...he just says I'm wrong. In fact the whole reason this all got started was because of a Christian club. He comes in and starts saying not just Christians go to heaven...I had to speak up. I told him I didn't want to get into an argument (because we've fought about this before), but I wasn't going to let the wrong thing be taught to people. Especially since he didn't even bother to say "some Christians believe otherwise", he just treated his word like law.

Needless to say? "We've had this discussion before. If you wont let the wrong thing be taught, dont speak on this matter."

Seeing as I'm reading Acts right now, all that did was give me major flashbacks to Stephen being told to shut his mouth. In the end I haven't backed down, I mean...these are young Christians and junk here! It's bad enough to speak the wrong things to begin with, but with them? The fact that some other people believe this too and are supporting him all the way...*shakes head* I mean, what do you do? I have the authority to tell him to stop and/or kick him out, but...I don't know if that would be a good thing to do.

Plus I'm still waiting for the huge "not all Christians are good people" argument. There's that passage where I believe Jesus talks about seperating the sheep and goats (the whole "whatever you did for the least of my brethen" thing I think it is) and how, in short:
A person may be Christian, but they still may deny doing something good for people. Therefore they get sorted in the evil pile. Meanwhile on the other side, someone may not be Christian, but they did something good for people, so they're good. They get sorted into the holy pile.

Truthfully I believe this passage is talking about something else, but the last time we had this argument, that got brought up as "proof" that good people go to heaven.

I think that if other people "Change their minds" with this guy and say that Christ isn't the only way to get to Heaven, then they never really changed their minds to begin with. They likely believed this before, but were afraid to state it in your group because of how they feared that they would be perceived. The pew report shows that this isn't an uncommon belief, and admittedly I have similar considerations that could be called beliefs myself. This is partially because of how I was raised, but I switched over to the other belief system (That Christ is the only way to Heaven based off the one scriptural verse) and then back because I felt that the scriptures were too ambiguous to be taken as a single verse... if that were true we would just have one or a few distinct separate verses and not the entire Bible. Or such is my personal belief. (It would certainly make it easier for Christians to read and eliminate a lot of arguing!)

However, what I do believe is that Christ is necessary for ME to get to Heaven, mostly because I'm too bad of a sinner to get there of my own actions. I am in no position to judge others and in fear of the judgment of God, I will not say that others might be able to get their of their own accord, in fact I currently believe that most can though I won't set a limit or take a position that is not mine to take. That is perhaps the most crucial question for every person in your group, not what gets other people to Heaven, but what gets them to Heaven. God gave us all the free will to decide many things, including whether we believe ourselves righteous enough to get to Heaven without Christ's miracle of grace. If others seek this freedom, Christ offers the only hope they have of overcoming that pain. I do believe this to be true, for no other religion has a God who offers himself a sacrifice for our sins, if there were, personal experience shows me that Christ is the true way through his actions within my life.

This is their own decision to make, and that is in some ways the basis of Christianity. The realization that we are fallen beings (This is a self restriction, not a "I Fail" but "you fail" equally or worse then me so I can feel better about the whole "failing thing"). The realization that only God can save US through Christ's sacrifice for us (So to that end we are responsible for his death, and not others) and the realization that through his love we are freed from this, and it is his grace that heals us.

I am not trying to say that you should believe this, I'm just presenting what I think. And beliefs are bound to vary. Its better for me to claim that I know nothing, and only hold ideas on such matters. Maybe each of you have to come to your own conclusions and not force anyone to take one stand or another, that is, by their free will... I do believe that given that they are all at a Christian meeting, they each believe that Christ lived, died and rose again and probably feel strongly that he was responsible for their individual salvation through some means or way. But part of the risk of having a group of Christians coming together is that you will acquire members unlike yourself, that don't agree with your standpoint and then you are forced to love them in the way Christ loved them despite your (forgive me but they seem like semi-minor) differences in philosophy. How would Jesus have loved this individual (Think of how many people denied he was the Christ to his face), I can't speak with certainty, but personally I think one should respect his beliefs and then move on to other topics... its old adage don't talk religion and politics with your friends. Your at a Christian group so you're already breaking this adage, expect to have differences of opinion that hurt your feelings, it comes with the territory. Grow up and strengthen yourself with the love of God.

PS- NOTE HOWEVER. If the guy is being loud and making a scene (acting CAA troll-like) then he may not be there to enjoy fellowship and might just be there to drive people crazy. In such a case it is perhaps best to let him go, just like someone who believes like you do but starts pounding people in the head with bibles because they confess with respect that they don't agree with him. But if a respectful fellowship can be obtained, then I can't really agree with kicking someone out for this. Sorry.

[Dante]

(By let him go I mean ban him Mod-style! @_@ GO MODERATORS OF CAA!!)

[oro!]

So, have you decided to do something about this guy?

[Mister Frodo]

I think that if other people "Change their minds" with this guy and say that Christ isn't the only way to get to Heaven, then they never really changed their minds to begin with. They likely believed this before, but were afraid to state it in your group because of how they feared that they would be perceived. The pew report shows that this isn't an uncommon belief, and admittedly I have similar considerations that could be called beliefs myself. This is partially because of how I was raised, but I switched over to the other belief system (That Christ is the only way to Heaven based off the one scriptural verse) and then back because I felt that the scriptures were too ambiguous to be taken as a single verse... if that were true we would just have one or a few distinct separate verses and not the entire Bible. Or such is my personal belief. (It would certainly make it easier for Christians to read and eliminate a lot of arguing!)

However, what I do believe is that Christ is necessary for ME to get to Heaven, mostly because I'm too bad of a sinner to get there of my own actions. I am in no position to judge others and in fear of the judgment of God, I will not say that others might be able to get their of their own accord, in fact I currently believe that most can though I won't set a limit or take a position that is not mine to take. That is perhaps the most crucial question for every person in your group, not what gets other people to Heaven, but what gets them to Heaven. God gave us all the free will to decide many things, including whether we believe ourselves righteous enough to get to Heaven without Christ's miracle of grace. If others seek this freedom, Christ offers the only hope they have of overcoming that pain. I do believe this to be true, for no other religion has a God who offers himself a sacrifice for our sins, if there were, personal experience shows me that Christ is the true way through his actions within my life.

This is their own decision to make, and that is in some ways the basis of Christianity. The realization that we are fallen beings (This is a self restriction, not a "I Fail" but "you fail" equally or worse then me so I can feel better about the whole "failing thing"). The realization that only God can save US through Christ's sacrifice for us (So to that end we are responsible for his death, and not others) and the realization that through his love we are freed from this, and it is his grace that heals us.

I am not trying to say that you should believe this, I'm just presenting what I think. And beliefs are bound to vary. Its better for me to claim that I know nothing, and only hold ideas on such matters. Maybe each of you have to come to your own conclusions and not force anyone to take one stand or another, that is, by their free will... I do believe that given that they are all at a Christian meeting, they each believe that Christ lived, died and rose again and probably feel strongly that he was responsible for their individual salvation through some means or way. But part of the risk of having a group of Christians coming together is that you will acquire members unlike yourself, that don't agree with your standpoint and then you are forced to love them in the way Christ loved them despite your (forgive me but they seem like semi-minor) differences in philosophy. How would Jesus have loved this individual (Think of how many people denied he was the Christ to his face), I can't speak with certainty, but personally I think one should respect his beliefs and then move on to other topics... its old adage don't talk religion and politics with your friends. Your at a Christian group so you're already breaking this adage, expect to have differences of opinion that hurt your feelings, it comes with the territory. Grow up and strengthen yourself with the love of God.

PS- NOTE HOWEVER. If the guy is being loud and making a scene (acting CAA troll-like) then he may not be there to enjoy fellowship and might just be there to drive people crazy. In such a case it is perhaps best to let him go, just like someone who believes like you do but starts pounding people in the head with bibles because they confess with respect that they don't agree with him. But if a respectful fellowship can be obtained, then I can't really agree with kicking someone out for this. Sorry.

Pascal, I agree that free will is very important. God gave us freedom of choice for a reason. Taking away that freedom to choose would result in cold, lifeless religion.

At the same time, there are a few things that you said that I disagree with. I apologize in advance if I have inferred the wrong meaning from what you said. Also, if you believe that I am wrong in what I say, please, show me Scriptures that correct my beliefs. I am a growing Christian, and I would definitely appreciate any corrections you may have.

I disagree with your belief that this person's statements are "semi-minor" differences in philosophy, that this subject should be dropped, and that his beliefs should be respected (though only to a certain point on that last one). Yes, it is important to respect others' beliefs. But by saying that Christ is not necessary for entrance to Heaven, this person is essentially saying that the Bible is wrong.

The Bible is absolute truth. If someone is denying that truth and is trying to lead others to deny that truth, then they are sinning. There will always be people who have questions on what the Bible says, and there will also be those who disagree with it. If a person questions the Bible, they should discuss it with fellow Christians (a Christian group would be a good place to do this.) But if someone is saying that the Bible is wrong and will not listen to other people's opinions or allow his beliefs to be questioned the same way he is questioning the Bible, then that person should be kicked out of the group, especially if that person is being loud and unreasonable (which, as you said, means the person may just be there to create unrest.)

There are parts of the Bible that we do not take literally. I know there are parts that I don't take literally. To say that every word of the Bible should be taken literally would be wrong, in my opinion. But Jesus states very clearly in the Bible that he is the only way to God. (John 14:6- "Jesus answered, 'I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.'" (NIV)) If we say that Jesus is lying, then we are saying that God is lying. This person may not outright say that God is lying, but by stating that Jesus is not the only way to Heaven, this person is implying that God lied. And if God lied... why should we believe anything that the Bible says?

It is not enough for us to reach Heaven through our own actions. The only way is through Christ. Anyone who denies this is denying the Word of God. If we could reach God by our own power, then why did Jesus die? So we could wear crucifixes and WWJD bracelets? Christ died as the perfect sacrifice for our sins, so that we could be with Him forever. A person who says that belief is Christ is not a necessity for salvation is wrong, and by stating this as fact, they are helping others to be led astray.

Again, I apologize if I inferred the wrong meaning from what you said. Yes, it is very important for us to discuss our differences in opinion. This helps us to become better Christians. But a person who is leading others away from the truth of the Bible (especially if they are leading new Christians that are just beginning their walks with God) should be kicked out of the group. That is my opinion on the matter, and, again, if I am wrong, please correct me! As I said, I would be open to any corrections you may have.

[sharien chan]

Just pray that God opens his heart to the truth and that God convicts him on any lies he may believe in/spreading. It sounds like he's just misguided, and needs to hear the truth. I wouldn't take responsibility for trying to correct him. Stand firm in your beliefs, but don't get too riled up. Unfortunately there are so many people out there with the wrong information about Christ. Let God worry about what this person believes. Just do what you're doing, and believe what you believe, and let God sort it out with that person. ^_^

[Shilohan ninja]

I totally agree with everything here. If it were indeed possible for us humans to save ourselves through our works, then why did Christ go to the trouble of becoming one of us and becoming our living sacrifice? And if indeed we could save ourselves with "good works", how, then do we determine what is "good" and what is "bad"? depending on how you look at it, everything can be good or bad.
It's good that you're confronting him, but don't keep fighting him on it. It'll only harden his heart even more, making him harder to get through to. If he does continue, then yes, kick him out. though, like others have stated already don't make a show of it.
And above all, keep praying for him.
(man, I feel like an echo in here)
Some things, though, are worth being repeated again.
Godbless

[Dante]

: Despite playing out the other element, I saw this and thought of this thread... that stated, I'll just steal the link from Shao-Feng Li's Deviant Art page and throw it up here for your individual bashing pleasure (even if that means bashing me ) :

-Pascal

http://rejecteddreams.deviantart.com/art/Everyone-s-Going-86922515

I didn't make this...
http://rejecteddreams.deviantart.com/
this guy did... I can't say what he has on the rest of his page... but this did seem prevalent to this conversation . And yes. is my favorite emoticon in the whole wide world . FEAR IT!

[Dante]

I agree with what everyone is saying here. If he continues to make a scene go ahead and kick him out the group. Also, I'd suggest that you pray for him seeing as how I don't think arguing with him will change anything.

If you do get backed into a corner and are forced to defend your position ask him to define what good is. He can't simply say "good people go to heaven" without first definining what good really is. The definition can't be subjective otherwise you could make a case that Hitler or any mass murderer could get into heaven since in someone's eyes what they did was good (and I get the feeling these are the kind of individuals he'd exclude from getting into heaven). Then explain to him that good is that which is like God and that the only way a person (being a fallen individual) can be good (or become like God) is through God working in them, and for God to do this they have to be willing to let him (in otherwords, they have to follow him).

OOC: And to double post addle Peanut, according to philosophy the good is:
1. Continuing
2. Inexhaustible
3. Comprehensive
4. Inalienable
5. Cooperate
6. Cumulative
7. Communal
8. Fulfilling
9. Ultimate
10. Transformative

That is a dangerous question to ask this guy also... if he's taken a college level ethics course at or above the 300 level then he would likely have the philosophical power to wipe the floor with you on this one (Even just some personal studying might do the trick). Trust me, I've watched my philosophy professor completely hammer poor Christians who tried to utilize biblical scripture to outmatch individuals who've studied this area for their whole life... its not a pretty sight. (Luckily he left them pretty much unscathed, but he was being merciful) I doubt this guy is a philosophy prof, but if he knows about this, then it can lead downhill for you in an argument.

Also note, that you can't prove that people are the good, they're not the good and can't be the good because they're not inexhaustible, inalienable ect. ect., proving God is the good is also impossible without reference... however, you can prove that the "Love of God" qualifies for all the properties of "The Good" but even still... that is IF you can assume biblical scripture to be true. I wrote a paper on this for fun, and I can PM it to you if you want me to... but likely you have enough junk on here to chew on... and I know that I know little to begin with, so perhaps its best to ignore me.

[rocklobster]

I hate false teachers too. I agree with Jesus that they should have millstones tied to their necks and tossed into the ocean (I don't know where in the Bible that quote comes from sorry. I'm terrible at remembering exactly where the Bible says my fave stuff without having it at arm's length.)
Just trust in God, Momo-P. You are doing the right thing by banning him.