Appropriate- again (sorry) ?

[xblack_x_rosesx]

I'm sorry, I did have a specific question regarding sex, but I haven't been home the last couple days to ask.
I just wanted to make sure I could ask in general is all.

Bascially, my question is how far is too far.

I know that sex is reserved for married couples, which I respect and will practice. My boyfriend and I plan on waiting until marriage.

But, what I'm wondering is, where are the boundaires, and what about sex is bad.
Is, well foreplay ok?

Is it the pleasure of sex that is supposed to be reserved for marriage?
If the answer to that is yes, then how come even kissing isn't reserved for marriage too.
Is action that goes on downstairs, but isn't quite sex, not aloud either?

Is it just the pregnancy thing that is reserved for marriage?

I just don't understand, on any level, why sex is reserved for marriage. Is it because of pleasure? And why other things (if they even are ok) such as foreplay are aloud, while sex is not.

My friend just had sex for the first time, and she is very anti-religion, so she thought it was absolutely ridiculous that there is no defined reason why you have to wait till marriage to have sex, but other stuff is fine before, because its practically the same thing.

If you could give me an answer on this one, I would appriciate it, and I'm sorry if it's... out of line...

thanks,

britt

[Nightshade X]

Hmm... best I can figure, the reason why all aspects of sex (foreplay included) is because of its spiritual properties. Sex is a very spiritually binding thing, and it was always meant to be that way for the purpose of binding a husband to his wife, and vice versa of course. The whole "two becoming one flesh" thing happens there, because (and this is going to sound very strange) the souls of the two connect on such a deep level because of the intimacy that is involved with the whole practice.

Now, the Bible is very clear about sex being reserved for marriage only, but I'm willing to go as far as to say that people who aren't married need to keep as far away from the act as possible. How far that needs to be for you, however, I cannot say. Everyone has their own personal boundaries... but that doesn't mean that you need to test them. Things like foreplay are so dangerously close to sex that I would warn you not to even try it, because it's so difficult to think clearly when... stuff goes on.

I don't know where your own boundaries lie, but as for me... I've ruled out certain touching and the sight of bare flesh in some areas... and I'm debating ruling out kissing. That last one, however... well... that one may pass.

The point is this: in your search for boundaries, don't concentrate on what will make you or your boyfriend happy. Instead, focus on what will please God and give Him the final say on everything.

P.S. - Sorry if I didn't answer everything. Unfortunately, I'm battling a cold, so I'm presently not all here.

[xblack_x_rosesx]

That makes lots of sense...
Hm...

Then what if I've... tested this sort of thing?
What do I do then? ... Repent, cos its not really a ... well, sin...

[Themanofchrist]

I would have to say go with what you think they should be....

I mean we can only suggest things, but you have to make the choice

Just pray for gods help on this

[Nightshade X]

That makes lots of sense...
Hm...

Then what if I've... tested this sort of thing?
What do I do then? ... Repent, cos its not really a ... well, sin...

Fact of the matter is this: If you've given in to temptation already, then it's a sin. A simple mistake. That's the simple fact of the matter. I'm not going to tell you what you need to do, because I believe such business is between you and God to sort out.

However, here's the good news. Remember the story in the Bible where the prostitute is brought before Jesus by the Pharisees (who were attempting to trap him in order to kill him)? After He dispersed the gathering crowd, which was a really impressive act by the way, He turned to the woman and asked where her condemners were. She saw that they were gone and acknowledged it... and when she did, He said something that brings me comfort every time I read it:

John 8:11: "No one, sir," she said.
"Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin."

Jesus does not condemn you to the mistakes of your past. What He does require, however, is that we leave our sin behind. The question you will need to answer is... what will you do when you confront this crossroads?

[Cognitive Gear]

Well, if you want a "logical" or "reasonable" explanation as to why some things are ok, and others aren't, here's mine.

Sex is reserved for marriage due to the large number of negative consequences it can have when practiced outside of a truly dedicated and exclusive relationship. These range from the obvious diseases, to the not so obvious biological and psycological.

On the psychological level, if you are not exclusive to one person for your entire life, you will inevitably compare your current mate to your previous. While this may not seem so bad offhand, it is important to remember that sex is an important part of a marriage relationship. If one person is not happy with it, it will cause problems in other areas of the marriage. When you add to this problem time's tendency to make things look better, you have a formula for marital problems.

Also, the first time one has sex, it will build a powerful emotional bond to the person. The strength of this bond is something that should be given wisely. Hence, waiting until marriage.

So now we have the reasons that sex is restricted to marriage. Or at least, the ones that I find suitable. I didn't get into the biological ones as they tend to be more difficult to talk about in a way that is suitable to this forum.

[NekoChan_C]

oh, wow... okay. Those are really good questions, actually. And I plan on being as forthright and open as possible to answer them...

Many people have many different views on this. I can speak from actual experience, as a grown woman with two and a half kids, yet, even then, it will still be MY opinion.
anyways, my dos centavos...

Sex isn't just the "male penetrates female in coitus" act. The Bible says to abstain from sexual contact until marriage, and there are a ton of good reasons why.
1) God says so. Even though we are thinking, feeling beings with intelligence and free will, when God says "no", we should just say, "Yes, Lord."
2) Sex (of any kind -- manual, oral, vaginal, anal or whatever-al) is still DESIGNED to bond a man and woman together. Women's bodies even secrete a hormone called Oxytocin when they climax that creates a sense of trust and bonding with the man (or to be fair, woman, I guess) that is accompanying the orgasm.
There is no other relationship like one where you have become intimate with a person...
And when that intimacy is created between a couple that is not married, it becomes THAT much harder to let go, should the relationship end for some reason. I can vouch for that personally. It is the WORST kind of hell, especially when the relationship has gone on for a year or longer.

3) The one that everyone likes to bring up: pregnancy or disease. And for very good reason. I had my first child at 17. Unwed, didn't even love the father... I gave him my virginity, he gave me a baby. Having a child is the most wonderful thing, but it is HARD. And it is DOUBLY HARD to do it on your own. You sacrifice, you commit, you learn patience and become proud of your child... but it's all by yourself. There's no one to share the burden or the praise with. It is a very lonely place to be.

As for diseases, that should be self explanatory for the most part. Of course there are exceptions to every rule, but... if you have only been with your husband, and vice versa, then you eliminate 99% of that fear that you will catch something that will kill you, like Hep C or AIDS.

Lastly.. and this is the hardest part for me to admit... I have had ... a few... sexual partners over the years. Only two meant anything to me... My ex of eight years and my current fiance ( and father to my unborn baby), IchiTone.

The others... sex was a very selfish thing, done to gain pleasure, to gain comfort, to gain acceptance. Even to relieve boredom. I'm by no means proud of this, but it is the raw truth.

I have done jsut about everything that a woman can do with a man, for "kicks".

And the main thing that I learned, after having nearly LOST my fiance over a slew of lust related issues?
That sex outside of marriage destroys. Even relationships taht are meant to last...

It destroys and it wears down your soul... it causes pain.
Anyways, that's my 2 cents, for what its worth.

[Puguni]

First of all,

A MILLION points for you for even waiting.

I don't know. This is what I would say to your friend. It would not settle right with me if there was another man out there who knew my body as intimately as my husband, who has seen me naked. What would also bother me is that someone I thought was special enough to have me is not going to be with me forever.

[Themanofchrist]

[spoiler]I had a friend who was a guy who tried to turn me bi and I was insane back then...so things happened[/spoiler]

Because of the above reason I am no longer a virgin but I am abstaining


So no matter your past you can put things right

[NekoChan_C]

[spoiler]I had a friend who was a guy who tried to turn me bi and I was insane back then...so things happened[/spoiler]

Because of the above reason I am no longer a virgin but I am abstaining


So no matter your past you can put things right

I applaud you for both your honesty and your determination to staying pure.

[LadyRushia]

My thoughts have pretty much been said already, and I only want to emphasize the personal boundaries thing. I said it in the other thread and I'll say it again. God convicts people differently, though as a general rule stay as far away from sex as possible and don't test yourself. The second you become tempted is when you'll know if you've gone too far, but don't purposefully bring yourself up to that point, whatever it may be.

John 8:11: "No one, sir," she said.
"Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin."

Jesus does not condemn you to the mistakes of your past. What He does require, however, is that we leave our sin behind.

Quoted for truth and emphasis.

[xblack_x_rosesx]

That makes sense...

I guess its pretty much about boundaries, and what a person feels is right. As of the moment, I've been dating my boyfriend for a year, and I don't mind being intimately close with him, I don't ever see it being a mistake, because he wants to marry me (...), but we still agree that waiting till marriage would be the right thing to do.
I just need to set a few more boundaries, as to what we do. I don't mind doing stuff, but I've never been one for anything oral, just cos I'm lazy.

I just like cuddling and touching.

Its just the temptation of it all that makes it confusing, especially in the heat of things. A nice long think, with God hopefully, and a resolution to change (for the hundreth time) would probably be my best bet?

[animechica]

That makes sense...

I guess its pretty much about boundaries, and what a person feels is right. As of the moment, I've been dating my boyfriend for a year, and I don't mind being intimately close with him, I don't ever see it being a mistake, because he wants to marry me (...), but we still agree that waiting till marriage would be the right thing to do.
I just need to set a few more boundaries, as to what we do. I don't mind doing stuff, but I've never been one for anything oral, just cos I'm lazy.

I just like cuddling and touching.

Its just the temptation of it all that makes it confusing, especially in the heat of things. A nice long think, with God hopefully, and a resolution to change (for the hundreth time) would probably be my best bet?

x.x I'm in the same boat, kinda.
Both my boyfriend and I wanna stay pure until marriage, but it is very difficult because we do plan on getting married and it's going to be (the way we're thinking, at least) at least 2 or 3 years until then, because I doubt he'll be able to support me right when I'm out of high school. Meanwhile, it's like, we've both admitted that we really want it, and it's one of those head-versus-body things. Who was it in the Bible that said "The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak"? (Jesus, IIRC? But for some reason Paul comes to mind..) anyway, I'm definitely living that.

But yeah, never give up on maintaining purity. Certain ways of cuddling we've had to call quits on because it was just too arousing. Disappointing? You bet. But in the long run, I really do think it's worth it. I catch myself wanting to go too far too often. x_x But hey, don't be the only one setting boundaries! Make sure you set them together and agree on why you're setting them. =)

[termyt]

NekoChan's real life experience is a far better teacher than anything I would say. I would put forth that a very large portion of the problems we witness in our daily lives comes from our culture's wrong-headed approach to sex. It's hard to find honesty when talking about sex, even though we seem to talk about little else.

On one extreme, we have the "sex with anyone at anytime because we like it" theory which breeds crime, disease, broken homes, and wrecked lives. On the other hand, we have the "sex is only for procreation" crowd. They miss the intimacy and bond that a sexual union creates.

Sex is intended not only for procreation, but to bond a man with a woman for life. This union not only brings about offspring, but ties the two together physically, spiritually, and emotionally. Like every bond, sex can also be used to torture and destroy. This is why God tells us marriage is permanent and the only legitimate relationship in which sex is allowed.

I think this topic also begs the question, “What is marriage?â€

[CAAOutkast]

Just for the record,when I said the "18 and over" thing in that last topic,I was speaking Morally and not Legally.

[ShiroiHikari]

So I put forth that marriage does not truly begin until you have sex and if you have sex, you are entering into marriage. If you then have sex with another, you have committed adultery. This is why sex must not be taken lightly. It is the permanent physical union between a man and a woman that is part of the wonderful and healthy relationship God designed for us.

I agree with pretty much everything you said. But here's a question: if you intend to spend the rest of your life with a person, and you aren't "married" yet-- i.e. you don't have the piece of paper that says you are --and you're exclusive to them, does that mean having sex with that person is a sin?

I have always thought that the Bible says not to commit adultery, which is extramarital sex, or to word it a little differently, sex outside of marriage. I never really found anything in there that says anything about PREmarital sex specifically, but I could be wrong.

[Sparrowhawk]

Pre-marital sex is sex outside of marriage. It's not in-marriage so logically it must be out.

As far as why, there first response was a good answer. If you go back to your first post you will see I said that marriage is when two people enter into a covenant relationship to each other before God - it is therefore not just physical, but spiritual. Therefore God must be a part of what you are doing - it must have his ok.

God makes it clear in the Old Testament how sacred sex is by the punishments he gave for those who abuse it. Even in the case of pre-marital sex, a man had to marry a woman if he seduced her. While Jesus obviously showed forgiveness to the woman brought before him(and the woman at the well), he also said "Go, and sin no more." So yes there is forgiveness but it does not mean what is going on is ok.

There is also the fact that until the instant two people say "I do" they don't know for sure they are going to be married. An accident, a sudden change of heart, Christ's return - anything could interrupt our plans. And if something interrupts these plans you don't want the pain of finding yourself comparing to someone else God brings into your life as your spouse to an old flame. By itself that would be miserable and if your spouse realizes it, it they will feel miserable for dissapointing you.

Hope this helps.
Sparrowhawk.

[Tsukuyomi]

Just for the record,when I said the "18 and over" thing in that last topic,I was speaking Morally and not Legally.

I'm sorry to call you out on this, but I know some who have more morality who are under the age of 18 then those who are 18 o.o; I think what everyone who posted to your comment in the last thread was just simply pointing out that it doesn't matter what age you are.. It matters on "said" person themselves ^ ^

[K. Ayato]

This message is in response to Christisright, but it's also something for all of us to consider, especially those of us in relationships and have questions regarding sexual intimacy and "how far is too far" issues.

Don't ever confuse what is socially acceptable with what is morally right. By moral, I mean what God has clearly stated in His word.

[CAAOutkast]

[quote="Tsukuyomi (post: 1249875)"]I'm sorry to call you out on this, but I know some who have more morality who are under the age of 18 then those who are 18 o.o]

After thinking about what you said,Tsukuyomi, you're probably right.

[xblack_x_rosesx]

Ok, wait..

So, what is a "godly" marriage?
Cos, what is being "married" defined by God?

The little slip of paper you sign? The paster saying "you are now husband and wife"? If its just the feeling of being together forever, then aren't a lot of couples out there already "married".
And does that mean commonlaw marriages are wrong? The people are commiting themselves to one another, just not infront of a pastor or judge.

[Sparrowhawk]

Ok, wait..

So, what is a "godly" marriage?
Cos, what is being "married" defined by God?

The little slip of paper you sign? The paster saying "you are now husband and wife"? If its just the feeling of being together forever, then aren't a lot of couples out there already "married".
And does that mean commonlaw marriages are wrong? The people are commiting themselves to one another, just not infront of a pastor or judge.

lol you know how to ask tough questions.

For non Christians, I slip of paper i would say is what makes them legally married and if they become Christians later on, I don't think God would make them go through the whole thing again. If they were commonlaw marriages, I would think that some type of ceremony would be appropriate, but not necessary.

For Christians on the other hand, again I say we look to the Bible. While not strictly saying so, since the time of the Exodus, people who follow the God of the Bible have always had a ceremony that in which a priest/minister mediates them as they make a covenant before God. I would say that in most cases, this would be the appropriate thing to do.

If you want to suppose on a really hypothetical ground of "what if two Christians were out in the middle of no-where and wanted to get married?" well, I don't have a good answer for that, but I would guess if they prayed about it and felt that the Holy Spirit would allow them to pledge to each other both to and in God's presence, I would guess that would work and when they got back to civilization they a minister could sign the paper. But here in America I don't think we have that problem.

[xblack_x_rosesx]

That just seems so silly...

That theres no defined answer for that. I mean, if the marriage is before God, say two people praying about it etcetc, but marriage means a slip of paper, that hardly seems like a marriage, more like an... obligated commitment.

[Themanofchrist]

Think of it like this

The paper is for earth

But before god its binding in heaven

[Shilohan ninja]

The way I see it, the paper you sign is kind of like one more public declaration (the wedding ring being the more obvious symbol) of your marriage that makes it "legal" here. I'm not saying that I agree or disagree with it, that's just my neutral, non-biased answer to the question. Personally, I do believe that the most important part is that you not only make that commitment to each other before God, but think about this; God has also commanded us to submit to the laws and teachings of our authorities. Like Jesus said, "give to Ceaser what is Ceaser's, give to God what is God's." (you can check my spelling if you wish)
Now, bear in mind that He also said to do this so long as the authority does not require you to do things that contradict God's laws. For example, if the government made a law, theoretically speaking, that required the couple to promise to sacrifice their first born child on an alter to Elvis (again, just a random example, not saying they would) then God would not want you to get a "legal" marriage, at least not in a place where they practice that sort of thing.
As for the origional guestion posed at the begining of the thread, I would encourage you to read the Song of Solomon. (again, you may correct my vocabulary later)
This book of the Bible is all about sex the way God intended it to be as portrayed in the wise words of King Solomon, himself. Another book you may want to check out is called the Marketing of Evil, by David Kupelian. It talks about how the culture and the media have introduced lies about sex and other such things into society through advertising. I would encourage you to check it out before you make a life-altering decision.
As always, in Love and in Christ,
Shilohan ninja

[king atlantis]

On the psychological level, if you are not exclusive to one person for your entire life, you will inevitably compare your current mate to your previous. While this may not seem so bad offhand, it is important to remember that sex is an important part of a marriage relationship. If one person is not happy with it, it will cause problems in other areas of the marriage. When you add to this problem time's tendency to make things look better, you have a formula for marital problems.
__________________________________________________________________________


i see this as a big thing.

sex is something important, as it is very...how do i put this? wonderfully invasive.
your...part of the person. it creates deep emotional attachment.

and, the purpose of waiting for marriage? i see it as so you and your wife/husband are more committed. sex is something you want to save so the person you truly love is the one to recive it- you only get the first time gift once.
ive talked to some freinds who wish they could take it back because of that, because their no longer WITH that person.
plus, it can mess up a relationship if not in marriage. particularly at a young age. it makes the relationship strained, becuase of the new level. marriage, on the other hand, sex is used to make you closer.

think of it this way as well- you may 'be with him forever' right now. but you cant see the future. you could break up- THEN where would you be? you gave your most precious gidft to someone who no longer loves you.
think realistically- your love for your b/f isnt special. everyone has those feelings for someone at osme point. it may be special to YOU, but, in the grand master of things, its the same-ol' same-ol'
and things happen.
and sex? well, that could just make those things happen worse.

im not saying your relationship is doomed or anything- you very well could end up together for 'forever' yatayata. but, be realistic. save yourself from future pain, by saving yourself for great pleasure later on.
and its not that Gods against pleasure, hes against us huting ourselves.

as far as foreplay/etc goes...well, doesnt it say somewhere if you even look at someone wrong youve commited adultry in your heart? if something causes you to think wrong, you shouldnt do it.
and im hard pressed to belive you can have foreplay while not thinking of sex.
my 2cent.
~King

ps- marriage IS sorta an obligated commitment, that your willing to 'be for each other/through better or worse/etc etc'.
cause we ALL know how easy it is to end g/f b/f relations.

[NekoChan_C]

King,

very well said... Marriage is the highest form of commitment, and one that God takes VERY seriously... To be quite honest, at this stage in my life, with all that I have done in the past... I find it hard to even look upon my fiance without thoughts traveling into dangerous territory...

Sex is a wonderful and incredible gift from God... but having sex outside of marriage is like using an iPod Touch for a doorstop. It does the job, but it wasn't meant to be a doorstop and you would get a lot more pleasure from using it as it was created to be used.

[xblack_x_rosesx]

Thanks a lot you guys =]

It makes a lot more sense now. I talked to my boyfriend about all of this, and he agrees that waiting, and slowing down what we do now, is the best idea.

One more question: is masturbation a sin then? I mean, when you do that, you usually think about a person, I guess "lusting" for them in your heart, which would be a sin.

And next item... how to make my boyfriend a christian o.O

[Slater]

It's a tough topic... One that's easier to answer when you're looking in from the outside, but tough when you're caught in the middle.

I'd know: the woman I want to spend my life with did certain things for me on her webcam that... well... yeah, I don't think I need to go into detail here for people to know what I mean.

A very godly woman of my highschool career told me something very simple and very important: "God created sex for marriage, not marriage for sex."

Don't turn things that turn your soulmate from that beautiful flower of a soul which you fell in love--true love--with into a porn star in your eyes. Sure, it's good and right for us to see our lovers as "sexy," but if that's all that we see in them, our priorities are going to be skewed; we will lose sight of the Big Picture: how we are supposed to fit into each others' lives in accordance with God's plans.

As for where to draw the line: we need not turn to God's Word for the answer. He gave us all a conscience that lets us know, deep down inside, when we're going too far. All we need to do is listen to that little voice inside, and everything will go the right direction. Silence the voice inside, and you'll be one rock shy of a landslide before you know it.

[termyt]

I agree with pretty much everything you said. But here's a question: if you intend to spend the rest of your life with a person, and you aren't "married" yet-- i.e. you don't have the piece of paper that says you are --and you're exclusive to them, does that mean having sex with that person is a sin?

I have always thought that the Bible says not to commit adultery, which is extramarital sex, or to word it a little differently, sex outside of marriage. I never really found anything in there that says anything about PREmarital sex specifically, but I could be wrong.

I think what society says is important, but not the ultimate authority. In the above example, the couple is married for all intents and purposes. The piece of paper you sign is for the state's purposes mostly regarding to taxation and legal rights - little to do with the classical reason for marriage.

Common Law Marriage is just another legal term defined in the laws of our society but they point out a basic understanding that a couple may be married even with out prior registration/approval of the state. I.E. they are married in there own eyes and the eyes of God.

By my reasoning, there’]How to convert your BF[/b]: This is a lot to cover in a single post, so I’d rather be brief on this point. I recommend the following:

1. Know why you are a Christian. If you can not articulate your own reasons for being a Christian, it will be much more difficult to explain the need for Christ to another.

2. Let your BF know you are a Christian and why.

3. Live according to your beliefs. This is the hard part, because we all fail at times, but practicing what you preach and striving to be God’s first and foremost is the greatest witness you can give.