Drill!

[Tundrawolf]

Hello,

What do you think about drilling in ANWAR?

A couple of things... I drive a truck that gets 27+MPG, and have a motorcycle that gets over 30. I am also an avid wolf lover.

I do not feel that compromising 1/100 of 1 % of the refuge would hurt anything. Wildlife is surprisingly adaptable and would relocate. I am sure the oil companies would be happy to set up artificial dens or whatnot for the animals.

I just don't see the logic of leaving it alone anymore. Now that gas prices are really hurting people, I don't think the answer is driving horrendously dangerous smart cars with 2 CuFt of cargo space.

Vehicles are more efficient today than they have been in a long time (I remember a friend telling me about an add for a 1940 sedan that got like 45MPG lol) and the truth is, some people *gasp* actually NEED an SUV's towing/hauling capacity.

[Mr. SmartyPants]

How effective would drilling be? I'm inclined to believe that the benefits may only be short-term.

[Momo-P]

If it's worth it? Go for it! Seriously, as you already mentioned, animals can adapt. Also I was not aware drilling would take up miles and miles of land...in a way I think PETA blows things out of the water too much. Sure God wants us to watch over His pets, but for pete's sake people, they're not made of glass. If anything they defend themselves quite well.

Also, I don't know WHERE these places are, but on Fox News last night, they mentioned how there's oil in some tourist spots in the US. Apparently they want the oil from there, but don't want to go after it because "it brings tourism and we can't drive them away".

I mean...the heck? With all due respect, people can't even tour places without gas. They've even made mention how people are staying home this summer because of all this junk going down. Really, forget tourism for a moment and just take the oil. Either you take it now or you take it later. Either way it's gonna happen sometime.

[Raiden no Kishi]

How about allowing offshore drilling? Also, there is a way to modify diesel-powered vehicles to run on used fryer oil (the sort that puts the "fry" in "French fry"). Why don't we get some more serious inquiry into making that a big deal? Talk about a reliable source - you think McDonald's, Burger King, Wendy's etc. are going anywhere anytime soon? They've got to pay to dispose of the oil and it's not doing anything, so let's use it for fuel (which is a proven concept - it works and some people use it). Except for the equipment to process it, it's practically friggin' free. Its use will save the restaurants money (it might even make them some money), and we'll have a boost in inexpensive, available fuel. What would be very useful is to be able to efficiently split water into hydrogen and oxygen. Liquid hydrogen and liquid oxygen are common rocket fuels. How's THAT for an energy resource? Your planet's 70% covered in rocket fuel. If one could find a way to harness lightning bolts, one could use them to power electrolysis arrays in order to split the water. Naturally-occurring power source (yes, I know it's sporadic, but still) + heavily-abundant resource (it's WATER) = rocket fuel. How about more nuclear power? We currently use nuclear fission for 19% of our electricity. The EU uses it for 30%, and France uses it for 78% of their electricity. Wind power also makes a ton of sense - all that kinetic energy is largely going to waste. I don't know if ANWR would be enough, but it seems that there are a lot of options worth looking into. None are perfect, but hey - most would reduce our dependence on oil, no?

.rai//

[Nate]

This thread has the potential to get political...but since it hasn't so far, it's probably okay. I'm not a mod though so it's up to them. *shrug*

That said, I don't know if it's a good thing or a bad thing. I just don't know if there's enough oil there to make any difference. The US currently uses 25% of the world's total amount of oil. According to the EIA, the United States has 21 billion barrels of proved oil reserves as of January 1, 2000. The U.S. uses about 6.6 billion barrels per year. That is only enough oil to last the U.S. about three and a half years without importing oil from other countries.

Plus, you have to take into account that they'd have to start drilling, and producing, and it'd probably be about six months before we even saw any difference. And then once we used it all up, then what? It just doesn't seem to make any sense to me to do it. *shrug*

[Technomancer]

That said, I don't know if it's a good thing or a bad thing. I just don't know if there's enough oil there to make any difference.

There isn't. Your own DOE estimates that the decrease in crude price would average about $0.75 based on current conditions. Also, ANWR itself wouldn't start producing until about 2018. Development of necessary infrastucture on tundra is not easy.

Anyways, I've been following this for a while given the Canadian government's own stated opposition to drilling in the region. Its primary concern has been the effects on the Porcupine caribou herd, which remains an important food source for many people living in the region. Similar opposition comes from American and Canadian native groups.

[Yuen Fei Lung]

I'm all for drilling in ANWAR but I fully realize that we need to begin to look for other alternatives as far as fuel goes.

[Warrior4Christ]

How about allowing offshore drilling? Also, there is a way to modify diesel-powered vehicles to run on used fryer oil (the sort that puts the "fry" in "French fry"). Why don't we get some more serious inquiry into making that a big deal? Talk about a reliable source - you think McDonald's, Burger King, Wendy's etc. are going anywhere anytime soon? They've got to pay to dispose of the oil and it's not doing anything, so let's use it for fuel (which is a proven concept - it works and some people use it). Except for the equipment to process it, it's practically friggin' free. Its use will save the restaurants money (it might even make them some money), and we'll have a boost in inexpensive, available fuel. What would be very useful is to be able to efficiently split water into hydrogen and oxygen. Liquid hydrogen and liquid oxygen are common rocket fuels. How's THAT for an energy resource? Your planet's 70% covered in rocket fuel. If one could find a way to harness lightning bolts, one could use them to power electrolysis arrays in order to split the water. Naturally-occurring power source (yes, I know it's sporadic, but still) + heavily-abundant resource (it's WATER) = rocket fuel. How about more nuclear power? We currently use nuclear fission for 19% of our electricity. The EU uses it for 30%, and France uses it for 78% of their electricity. Wind power also makes a ton of sense - all that kinetic energy is largely going to waste. I don't know if ANWR would be enough, but it seems that there are a lot of options worth looking into. None are perfect, but hey - most would reduce our dependence on oil, no?

.rai//

The government can't easily tax used cooking oil, that's why.

Also, you'd need lots of it. And I really don't think restaurant would use enough to meet demand. Which would probably mean that we'd be sometimes using unused cooking oil, which is a "biofuel", and that requires crops and the food shortage, and oh no!

I do like the idea of nuclear-powered cars though.

[EricTheFred]

Warning: Rant approaching...

No matter how much we drill, or where we drill, oil will continue to get more expensive. The reason is very simple. We cannot keep up.

Right now, oil production is being ramped up all over the world. Every major oil producer is cashing in. And yet the cost continues going up. Why? Because demand is increasing. It isn't just the US (although we are certainly not helping things by having the world's least efficient private transportation) We are way too insular in the US, believing first that the whole thing is because we haven't built enough refineries (which totally fails to explain equally rising gasoline prices in Europe and Asia) and then thinking that it's because those nasty politicians won't let us drill in ANWAR. Both items are drops in the barrel in comparison to the real problems.

Beyond our own inefficiency, there is a much bigger cause. Two very large (half the world's population) countries have economies and standards of living which are rapidly rising. Their increasing demand for oil is sopping up all the new production and then some.

It takes a long time to build new oil infrastructure. And if we are going to invest in new energy infrastructure, why the heck should we be investing in a diminishing resource, throwing good money after bad, when at best we are just delaying the same result in the long run.

We have technologies today that actually work, that have been proven on the small scale but which cannot compete commercially... not because they aren't competitive on an even playing field, (one form of Solar is significantly less expensive than any form of fossil-fuel energy) but because commercial banks and other large investors won't put money into 'commercially unproven technologies' without jacking the interest rates way up. Since there are not fuel costs, most of the cost is up front instead, and this extra interest is the deal-breaker (If you are curious, I am referring to large scale Solar Thermal power plants, the so called 'Power Tower' systems)

If you really want the government solving the problem (I have mixed feelings about this as a Libertarian of course. As a Libertarian or as an Engineer I arrive at two completely opposing solutions) then get them to put up the investment money as loans to the power companies to build these systems as soon as possible. Then they can both generate electricty (large enought Solar Thermal systems can store solar energy as heat and generate electricity 24 hours a day, even in diminished sunlight) and use Pyrolysis to manufacture light crude oil out of switchgrass and corn, a much higher efficiency (and more environmentally acceptable) biofuel solution than Ethanol or Biodiesel.

[Nate]

believing first that the whole thing is because we haven't built enough refineries

Yeah that's another thing I was thinking about. It costs a lot of money to build refineries in these areas, and if there's only enough oil there for three and a half years, give or take, it just doesn't make a bit of sense economically to build these things only to turn right around and shut them back down in a couple of years.

So to me it seems like even IF the oil we got from these places somehow decreased the cost of gas (which I'm pretty sure it wouldn't, at least not any time in the near future), the tax increases used to pay for the building of these refineries would make it not really a decrease at all.

[ChristianKitsune]

I'm all for Drilling for a short-term help.. Let's face it guys, gas prices are ruining small and large businesses around the country. It's causing companies to have to lay off employees...heck even planes are starting to charge for one check in bag because of this! O_o

And with all that is going on in the Midwest because of the floods, Foods, and the cost of transporting them are going to sky rocket...

I'm for drilling, The United States has more oil than the middle east does, but we just aren't going for it. Sure the Refineries will cost a bit to build... but we need to do SOMETHING. I heard that the area that they want to drill is like a postage stamp in a football field... It's nothing! Who cares about the caribou when people here are starting to really hurt...

I'm also for going Green... but for a lot of Americans we can't afford the new cars that can run on this stuff... we still have a lot of people driving cars from the 70s and 80s... because that's really all they can afford.. :/

There is talk of a really nifty machine, that costs around 1,500 dollars and you can make your own ethanol using Sugar and water... pretty nifty if you ask me.

But yeah Corn Ethanol..is a major fail. Especially in my area of the country. Do you guys know how much water it takes to produce ethanol? O_o

I've heard that we will be one of the first countries to burn up our food supply. Because we are using corn that the cows can eat...

AND with these floods in the Midwest...like obliterating all the corn in that area... O_O prepare for a major raise in corn, and things that rely on corn...

SOMETHING's gotta give and I fear it's going to be the families that depend on oil and gas, and all that jazz...

[Nate]

The United States has more oil than the middle east does

This is simply, completely, and totally untrue. The United States has the second-least amount of oil out of all countries. The only country with less oil than us is Mexico. The country with the most is Saudi Arabia, and the one with the second-most is Canada.

As of January 2007, Saudi Arabia has 260 billion barrels of oil available. The US has only 21 billion barrels.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5b/Top_ten_largest_oil_reserves_by_country.GIF

As you can see, the US isn't even in the top ten.

[blkmage]

The problem with trying to get more oil is that only a finite amount of oil exists. And the problem with these specific proposals is that it's not just money that is invested into these projects, but also energy. If the energy we get out of drilling isn't much more than the energy we put into it, then we've wasted our resources. This is the same problem with alternative fuel sources; the ratio of energy we put in to what we get out doesn't match that of oil.

[Mr. SmartyPants]

I'm all for Drilling for a short-term help.. Let's face it guys, gas prices are ruining small and large businesses around the country. It's causing companies to have to lay off employees...heck even planes are starting to charge for one check in bag because of this! O_o

And pray tell, how will a short-term help really improve the economy? To rebuild the economy, you need something that will be beneficial in the long-run.

The way I see it is that drilling for oil in the US analogous to sticking a wad of chewing gun to fix a crack on a dam. It'll be helpful for a few years (certainly less than 10), but in the end it's going to only start to suffer again.

[Tundrawolf]

I'm all for Drilling for a short-term help.. Let's face it guys, gas prices are ruining small and large businesses around the country. It's causing companies to have to lay off employees...heck even planes are starting to charge for one check in bag because of this! O_o

And with all that is going on in the Midwest because of the floods, Foods, and the cost of transporting them are going to sky rocket...

I'm for drilling, The United States has more oil than the middle east does, but we just aren't going for it. Sure the Refineries will cost a bit to build... but we need to do SOMETHING. I heard that the area that they want to drill is like a postage stamp in a football field... It's nothing! Who cares about the caribou when people here are starting to really hurt...

I'm also for going Green... but for a lot of Americans we can't afford the new cars that can run on this stuff... we still have a lot of people driving cars from the 70s and 80s... because that's really all they can afford.. :/

There is talk of a really nifty machine, that costs around 1,500 dollars and you can make your own ethanol using Sugar and water... pretty nifty if you ask me.

But yeah Corn Ethanol..is a major fail. Especially in my area of the country. Do you guys know how much water it takes to produce ethanol? O_o

I've heard that we will be one of the first countries to burn up our food supply. Because we are using corn that the cows can eat...

AND with these floods in the Midwest...like obliterating all the corn in that area... O_O prepare for a major raise in corn, and things that rely on corn...

SOMETHING's gotta give and I fear it's going to be the families that depend on oil and gas, and all that jazz...

That's true, and Ethanol gives you worse MPG's..

You know, nickel combined with water with a small voltage creates hydrogen, which can be pumped into your engine and combusted like gas-the only byproduct is water-and the only fuel you need are nickel rods (Which last a while) and water.

I don;t know who did it, but there was buzz on someone who in his backyard-created his own hydrogen fuel-cell and delivery method, and actually go tit to work. His vehicle runs on water!

[Technomancer]

And pray tell, how will a short-term help really improve the economy? To rebuild the economy, you need something that will be beneficial in the long-run.

In the long term you're basically screwed without major structural changes to settlement patterns and transportation networks. Not only are there no easy alternatives to petroleum in cars, but any such a replacement means choosing what is least bad. We are already seeing that use of biofuels will significantly impact the world's food supply, especially in third world regions. However, the alternatives such as switching to hybrids, fuel cells or some other replacement to the basic internal combustion engine will also come with negative consequences. Such a switch will imply a significant increase in demand (and thus price) for certain base metals and likely platinum group metals as well. No matter what you do, people are going to get it in the shorts; it's just a question how hard a kick we want.

[Tundrawolf]

I don't want a kick in the shorts at ALL! I'm riding my wolf to work from now on.

[Syreth]

So... high gas prices. Big deal. We tighten our belts and move on.

Economically, an increase in supply will cause the price to drop without fail unless demand increases enough to offset the change. But I think that we are assuming that drilling domestically will mean that we will stop importing. If we use the oil gained from drilling domestically as a supplement to our imports, then it will last longer than three years and have a more lasting effect.

Also, a short term benefit is still a benefit.

[Technomancer]

But I think that we are assuming that drilling domestically will mean that we will stop importing.

In terms of the DOE estimates, no. They're looking at the effect on the overall oil supply and the resulting price change.

If we use the oil gained from drilling domestically as a supplement to our imports, then it will last longer than three years and have a more lasting effect.

It may last longer, but the impact on oil prices will be marginal.

[ChristianKitsune]

Nate, does that include the oil in Alaska? http://www.anwr.org/case.htm

And please cite sources that's not wikipedia..I'm not saying you aren't right, I just heard that we had more oil..but we aren't exploring it. Which would explain why we aren't even in the top 10...

According to the site I just cited, If we drilled in ANWR we COULD add at least 40-50 years. I'm not saying that we shoudl ALWAYS depend on oil and gas...but let's give ourselves more of a cusion to find other sources of energy...

And pray tell, how will a short-term help really improve the economy? To rebuild the economy, you need something that will be beneficial in the long-run.

I have no idea, Ryan. But SOMETHING needs to be done... people are suffereing here.. >:[

Right now we NEED oil and gas... hopefully in a couple of years we can depend less and less on it. But it won't happen overnight, and until we can make the change we need gas prices to be better than they are now. Drilling in ANWR will at least alleviate the wound. I realize it will be short term... but families are really hurting right NOW.

It costs my family nearly 100 bucks to fill up our van and another 75 to fuel up our small SUV (A GEM Jimmie)

I am sure a lot of familes are hurting just as much, if not worse. Way worse. Considering some families don't have a fantastic income...

The problem with a lot of famlies, is we have to commute to buy groceries and go to school. Not only are food prices rising, but it's also getting more expensive to GET to grocery stores to buy them.

[Nate]

Nate, does that include the oil in Alaska?

Yes, it does. America's proven oil reserves are only a few billion barrels, which is significantly less than Saudi Arabia or Canada, or Russia, or well...every other country.

As far as unproven reserves go, America doesn't have that much there either, simply because there just aren't many places left in America where oil could be.

And please cite sources that's not wikipedia..

I am citing sources that aren't wikipedia. The oil estimates I gave are based out of the 2007 "Oil & Gas Journal," January issue.

As far as further sources that aren't wikipedia, how about...the Energy Information Administration report?

"Additional oil production resulting from the opening of ANWR would be only a small portion of total world oil production, and would likely be offset in part by somewhat lower production outside the United States."

"The opening of ANWR is projected to have its largest oil price reduction impacts as follows: a reduction in low-sulfur, light crude oil prices of $0.41 per barrel (2006 dollars) in 2026 for the low oil resource case, $0.75 per barrel in 2025 for the mean oil resource case, and $1.44 per barrel in 2027 for the high oil resource case, relative to the reference case.""

In plain English: Oil would go from $130 a barrel to $129.25 a barrel. Wow. What a difference. Further,

"The total production from ANWAR would be, in 2024, approximately 1%]http://www.eia.doe.gov/oiaf/servicerpt/anwr/index.html[/url]

The more I read about it the less sense it makes. It would be insane to start drilling from what I see.

[LadyRushia]

You know, I'm not that knowledgeable about this issue, but something has to happen. If not then we'll be riding bikes everywhere (which I actually wouldn't mind that much, XD). I heard that the entire drilling process would take a really long time (like eight or ten years). But even if drilling only gives us temporary relief, isn't that better than nothing?

[Roy Mustang]

As much as it would be nice for us to do offshore drilling in the Gulf of Mexico, it would take years to set it up and you wouldn't only get a small % of the oil out of Gulf of Mexico.


So, why waste money on an energy that we really need to get away form anyway.


[font="Book Antiqua"][color="Red"]Col. Roy Mustang [/color][/font]

[blkmage]

Just because there's oil in the ground somewhere doesn't mean that it's economically viable to grab it. It takes energy to get oil. We're essentially using up oil to get marginally larger quantities of oil. Not only that, but it will take time to get said oil. In the worst case, trying to grab the oil could cost more money and energy than we get out of it, in which case, we've wasted a bunch of money and oil.

[Syreth]

In terms of the DOE estimates, no. They're looking at the effect on the overall oil supply and the resulting price change.

Sorry for not clarifying. I was thinking along the lines of the comments in this thread as opposed to the DOE estimates.

[Momo-P]

It costs my family nearly 100 bucks to fill up our van and another 75 to fuel up our small SUV (A GEM Jimmie)

I am sure a lot of familes are hurting just as much, if not worse. Way worse. Considering some families don't have a fantastic income...

Quoted for truth.

I don't want to be a jerk (so if there's anybody who feels this way on this site, please forgive me) but...I'm really sick and tired of the people who say "it's not that bad/get over it/you'll live/etc."

Um, no. It IS that bad. If you live in a city or a very large town where things are accessible? Of COURSE it's not that bad for you! I wish I could walk up to Wal-Mart and buy groceries or clothing, but ya know what? Most people don't have that luxury.

The nearest place to buy clothing is an hour away. ON ALL SIDES. You go about an hour from here east, west, or north and you will find large towns that have wal-marts, targets, malls, etc. But before that? Good luck.

Sure we have a grocery store in town, but seriously, you can't get everything you need. Certain medicines, hair or body products, food they won't bring in because "you must be a major chain of stores to obtain". Thankfully about half an hour out from here (again, on about the same sides) you do have decent sized towns with better stores for food, but still nothing in the clothes or household department.

Also, as if driving to buy that sort of stuff is draining us, driving to go to work? It's getting bad. My dad works at a factory about 30 minutes from here (no other work available) and my mom...she's a nurse which pays good, but the drive is zapping her money. Sure you can say "get a closer job", but...where? THERE ARE NONE. There's only two places in town and both are booked and anyplace that has opening is just part time (and they also require some driving, so again, the money would get sucked up before it's even made).

There's absolutely nothing we can do. Sure people live in cities, but most of the US is NOT cities. What's worse, I live in Iowa. Yanno, that lovely state that's become an island. Most of the people around here are suffering the same stuff my parents are, but because of their fields getting ruined? Ya...I don't even want to ask what their income is gonna be. Add in people dealing with house damage (thankfully the Lord spared our home)...it's freaking insane.

[Mr. SmartyPants]

But even if drilling only gives us temporary relief, isn't that better than nothing?

Not necessarily, because as people said, the repercussions of drilling for oil in said places may probably create more economic problems. The amount invested may be more than the amount gained, thus creating a deficit.

I'm starting to believe that drilling is an insane idea as well.

And if you need to fly, fly with Southwest. Why are they one of the most successful airlines in the US? Because a number of years ago, they took part in a contract where they'd have to pay a certain amount for the next ten years or so.

So basically, they get it cheaper than most other airlines because they made smart decisions.

[rocklobster]

I think the time has come to seriously move the alternative fuel agenda forward. We know there are other ways to fuel vehicles. We can and must improve this technology now, not when oil becomes so scarce that oil prices are even higher than they are now.
That being said, I think this is an excellent idea.

[Technomancer]

I think the time has come to seriously move the alternative fuel agenda forward.

It was time 20 years ago, but the politicians (and voters) weren't interested in listening, and even less interested in spending the necessary money or making the needed sacrifices. There was (and still is) too much faith that technology will somehow find a way and keep things easy for us.

Of course, just wait 'till we start saying the same about water.

[Warrior4Christ]

Right now, oil production is being ramped up all over the world. Every major oil producer is cashing in. And yet the cost continues going up. Why? Because demand is increasing.

Yes and no.

Remember that day two weeks ago (or something) when the price of a barrel of crude oil went up $10 or $11 in one day? Did demand dramatically increase overnight? No. Did it suddenly become more expensive to extract/process the oil? Unlikely again. It was "market fear" or something... the pricing strategy is ridiculous for oil. It's not costing the petroluem companies any (or much) more to extract, but they're getting more and more money for doing the same thing. It is not a 'highly competitive' market!


Also, oil companies are big and powerful. When oil is no longer the primary energy source (and it's in their interest to keep it the primary source for a long time), they'll want to take over and control the alternative that is.