Vatican Says...

[Cognitive Gear]

I thought of this just now... actually.

I find it funny how as always assume that any potential alien lifeform is more technologically advanced than us. But why do we think that? What if there are aliens or other lifeforms out there in other planets that are NOT as advanced as us? What if they're like... Alien-cavemen or something?

Then we wouldn't be able to write fiction about them invading us.

But really, there is a whole lot of fiction out there about us finding planets with primitive life on them. However, these either aren't as entertaining aren't as accessible as earth getting invaded.

Also, didn't you ever see "Alien"? The alien isn't exactly a tech savvy lifeform.

[Fish and Chips]

I want to read a book where the aliens invade Earth in a manner not unlike Europe in the New World.

[Cognitive Gear]

I want to read a book where the aliens invade Earth in a manner not unlike Europe in the New World.

"We stole countries with the cunning use of flags! Yeah, just sail around the world and stick a flag in."

I wonder what device the aliens would use instead of flags?

[Mr. SmartyPants]

"We stole countries with the cunning use of flags! Yeah, just sail around the world and stick a flag in."

I wonder what device the aliens would use instead of flags?

They don't use flags. They don't need to.

They are the Patriots.

[Technomancer]

I thought of this just now... actually.

I find it funny how as always assume that any potential alien lifeform is more technologically advanced than us. But why do we think that? What if there are aliens or other lifeforms out there in other planets that are NOT as advanced as us? What if they're like... Alien-cavemen or something?

That's quite likely really. Geologically speaking, the history of our species is very short; anatomically modern humans don't appear in the fossil record until quite late (about 100,000 years ago), and even then the earliest beginnings of human civilization don't begin to appear until about 10,000 years ago. This is trifling small compared to the lifetimes of stars and planets.

[Etoh*the*Greato]

They don't care because cave-aliens can't contact us. We're just interested in planets we can talk to.

[Technomancer]

In related news, it seems some people are also working on some more useful assumptions regarding extraterrestrial communcations. Specifically, the same frequency bands that we use for communications would likely also be used by extraterrestrial civilizations. Unfortunately, these bands are poorly explored astronomically since terrestrial sources tend to swamp them.
http://astrobio.net/news/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=2768&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0

[animewarrior]

I don't really think that ETs live in our dimension... however the possibility of multiple dimensions has always fascinated me and we have proof of them in the Bible. Heaven and hell are stated as alternate dimensions... and I remember reading about Elijah's servant or Elijah's "eyes were opened by God and he saw a multitude of heavenly warriors backing him up" in Old Testament... I unfortunately can't remember where exactly that was. However, I do think that God can do whatever he wants, whether that be create a crazy rock garden in space, or create ETs.

[Tsukuyomi]

I've always loved thinking about the possibility of different dimensions out there. Like, overlapping dimensions totally unknown to one another ^^

Heh heh heh, my sci-fi side is showing again xD;

[uc pseudonym]

In related news, it seems some people are also working on some more useful assumptions regarding extraterrestrial communcations. Specifically, the same frequency bands that we use for communications would likely also be used by extraterrestrial civilizations.

Now that's interesting. The first things we'd probably get would be popular culture (presuming an alien society resembles ours in any way) - which would be a strange situation indeed.

I don't really think that ETs live in our dimension... however the possibility of multiple dimensions has always fascinated me and we have proof of them in the Bible. Heaven and hell are stated as alternate dimensions... and I remember reading about Elijah's servant or Elijah's "eyes were opened by God and he saw a multitude of heavenly warriors backing him up" in Old Testament... I unfortunately can't remember where exactly that was. However, I do think that God can do whatever he wants, whether that be create a crazy rock garden in space, or create ETs.

You're thinking of 2 Kings 6 , unless I very much miss my mark. But I mainly want to say that we should avoid taking this into theological realms - there are some who might want to dispute the presence of dimensions in the Bible.

[LadyRushia]

Alien pop culture, XDDD.

Maybe they have internetz, too.

[AJV]

Sounds odd,but I guess it's not impossible.
Cus all things are possible with God!

Though I don't think God would make aliens,I mean what purpose would they have in God's Creation and Salvation plans?

Hmm...Interesting indeed.

I guess only God knows for sure that they're real or not.

[Tsukuyomi]

Rushia Rushia Rushia, haven't you heard of "Alienware" u_u/



Meeeeep, that's what the alien looked like in my dream o_o It was gray and had those hollow looking eyes ~(O_O)~

[LadyRushia]

So the internet was invented by aliens. No wonder it's so serious.

[Technomancer]

Now that's interesting. The first things we'd probably get would be popular culture (presuming an alien society resembles ours in any way) - which would be a strange situation indeed.

When you consider that other socities would likely have been broadcasting well before they contemplated a SETI project of their own, much less actively beaming messages out it really makes a great deal of sense. The number of planets broadcasting for purely domestic purposes should, in principle, be larger than the number of societies deliberately seeking contact. However, it has also been suggested that the temporal window in which a civilization broadcasts is limited by its own technological advances. Earlier television/radio broadcasts were high power and omni-directional. With the advent of cable (and its digital variants), as well as better directional antennae, a smaller fraction of broadcast power is being lost to space.

[Tsukuyomi]

So the internet was invented by aliens. No wonder it's so serious.

*nodnod* u_u

It sure wasn't created by this Bill Gets guy u_u/

[Syreth]

Now that's interesting. The first things we'd probably get would be popular culture (presuming an alien society resembles ours in any way) - which would be a strange situation indeed.

Perhaps we might get the alien version of Coast to Coast AM? XD

But wouldn't it be a let-down, though, if by the time we did finally receive their broadcasts, we find that they were already wiped out somehow?

[uc pseudonym]

When you consider that other socities would likely have been broadcasting well before they contemplated a SETI project of their own, much less actively beaming messages out it really makes a great deal of sense. The number of planets broadcasting for purely domestic purposes should, in principle, be larger than the number of societies deliberately seeking contact. However, it has also been suggested that the temporal window in which a civilization broadcasts is limited by its own technological advances. Earlier television/radio broadcasts were high power and omni-directional. With the advent of cable (and its digital variants), as well as better directional antennae, a smaller fraction of broadcast power is being lost to space.

Ah, I hadn't realized there would be that complication. Again, interesting.

But wouldn't it be a let-down, though, if by the time we did finally receive their broadcasts, we find that they were already wiped out somehow?

It's basically the same as the stars we see from Earth, really. Presuming we can pick up a decent amount of their broadcasts, we'd essentially be on a 100,000 year delay. So it could be mildly disturbing to get more and more chaotic broadcasts eventually followed by silence (hm, there's a scifi story in there somewhere).

[Tsukuyomi]

Ah, I hadn't realized there would be that complication. Again, interesting.


It's basically the same as the stars we see from Earth, really. Presuming we can pick up a decent amount of their broadcasts, we'd essentially be on a 100,000 year delay. So it could be mildly disturbing to get more and more chaotic broadcasts eventually followed by silence (hm, there's a scifi story in there somewhere).

And, you should so write it, UC \o.o/

Which, you probably thought of that too.. Since you did say it ^^

[Mithrandir]

So it could be mildly disturbing to get more and more chaotic broadcasts eventually followed by silence (hm, there's a scifi story in there somewhere).

Dude...

I want to read that one.

[Syreth]

[quote="Technomancer (post: 1234532)"]That's quite likely really. Geologically speaking, the history of our species is very short]
I was thinking about this the other day. In order to tell how young or old the human race is, wouldn't we have to compare it to the lifetimes of other sentient life rather than to the lifetimes of stars and planets? Young and old, after all, are relative terms, right? So the only thing we really know is that the human race is "young" when compared to our geologic history as we know it. I would assume that we don't really know how old or young a planet needs to be to support intelligent life.

[Etoh*the*Greato]

Well, here's one. In the course of the development of the universe we could potentially be candidates for the oldest sentient civilization. You see, the universe is the youngest possible age for everything that has occured to occur including the development of complex life-forms.

[Technomancer]

I was thinking about this the other day. In order to tell how young or old the human race is, wouldn't we have to compare it to the lifetimes of other sentient life rather than to the lifetimes of stars and planets? Young and old, after all, are relative terms, right?

In part yes. In terms of our species' development as a technological society, the terms "young" and "old" are really only meaningful when compared to other such societies. However, the fact that out time has been such a small slice of geological or cosmological time is very significant in terms of our hope for contact and potential relations. A difference in even a million years in terms of stellar and planetary formation or geological change is an insignificant fraction of the time scale of these processes. It terms of biological evolution and especially in terms of cultural evolution a million years is a very significant span of time.

So the only thing we really know is that the human race is "young" when compared to our geologic history as we know it. I would assume that we don't really know how old or young a planet needs to be to support intelligent life.

Sort of. We can put upper and lower bounds on likely ages (e.g. too young = too hot, and/or not enough time for sentience to appear), as well consider basic geological and ecological requirements along with their requisite time-scales.

In the course of the development of the universe we could potentially be candidates for the oldest sentient civilization. You see, the universe is the youngest possible age for everything that has occured to occur including the development of complex life-forms.

I don't disagree that the first statement is possible, but what is the basis for the second?

As an aside:
http://sciencenow.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/2008/616/1

[Nate]

I don't disagree that the first statement is possible, but what is the basis for the second?

I may be wrong but I think what Etoh meant was that no civilizations could've existed before the universe was created, so therefore the oldest a civilization could be would be the age of the universe. I think he just worded it strangely.

[Etoh*the*Greato]

I may very well have. What I'm trying to say is that from what we know about the development of the universe and the age of the universe there is no possible way for the universe to have developed an faster than it did. Which... didn't actually word very well either. Alright, let me put it this way.

Imagine the creation of the universe as getting a 777 on a slot machine. Now imagine someone set you down at that slot machine and said in order to get the universe you needed 200 jackpots. When you start to pull the lever you find that every single time you pull the lever you come up with the Jackpot 777. Our universe has advanced to the point that it is now in the shortest possible time for it to have advanced this far. We pulled the lever and it came up Jackpot every single time.

That said, we could very well be one of the oldest surviving (and maybe even the first) sentient life-form in the universe. This is as it was explained to me in class this semester. We are a very lucky fluke of statistics.

[Technomancer]

We are a very lucky fluke of statistics.

Or, the model from which you are proceeding is wrong, and I suspect that we will find that to be the case. However, this has little bearing on the current state of the universe (at least in terms of its ability to support sentient life). While definitely agree that there is a minimum approximate age for the universe to support sentience and the development of a technological civilization, I don't think we can say that the universe is the "youngest possible age for everything that has occured to occur including the development of complex life-forms".

Let's see: current estimates place the origin of the universe at about 14 billion years ago. Observations from Hubble further place the earliest known development of galaxies at about 13 billion years ago. Very likely, these galaxies and other structures at that time mostly consisted of population II and population III stars (metal deficient and metal-free), as the heavier elements had not yet had time to be made in sufficient quantity. It is also likely that galaxies at this time would have been fairly active places and thus unsuitable for life.

It would have taken several billion years for sufficient quantities of metals and other elements to build up sufficiently following the formation of galaxies. If the disk of our own galaxy formed ~8.5 billion years ago as is currently thought, then that leaves an additional time period of 4 billion years before the origin of our own solar system (with essential inputs from the remains of dead stars). This would seem to indicate that there is possible room for the development of life several billion years prior to our own time.

[Danderson]

We are a very lucky fluke of statistics.

So....that's all we are?.....I mean, I guess I can see where ur comin from and it should really make us even more amazed at the awesome powers of our Creator.........

But the Billions of years stuff that Technomancer's been talkin about.........I know our earth is definetly not that old (not that I want to start a debate), but could it have been made at the same time as the rest of our universe?.......I mean, I honestly believe God could easily just say, "Let there be a Planet," or something to that effect, and it would form just like that.....not over all those years.......

[Tsukuyomi]

We are a very lucky fluke of statistics.

What What What

Hmmm, that really makes you think huh ^^; Kinda a weird way to put it, but I gettcha ^^

[Etoh*the*Greato]

We are a very lucky fluke in statistics ooooor you can infer God in to the process. But look at it this way.

Techno, you're likely right about that. I do detract what I said, however if they formed so far earlier before us, the odds are pretty good that they are extinct so we will not be likely to come in contact with them anyway.

[Technomancer]

But there is no reason to suppose that we are a statistical fluke (with or without divine intervention). Whatever the odds of our being here, the universe is both large and old; the laws that govern it promote self-organization and in time, life itself. However rare the individual circumstances of our being here might be, the nature of those circumstances is not. If those circumstances did not come together here, then they would have assuredly happened elsewhere (and most likely have happened elsewhere).

From everything we have learned about life, we have no reason to suspect that it is necessarily rare. Indeed, we know that its fundamental building blocks can form in outer space, and are even abundant. We know how carbon can react to form those building blocks. Most importantly, we know that life arose on Earth almost as soon as it was able to exist. This does not bespeak a nigh impossible requirement, but rather a universe filled with such potential, that life is almost an inevitability.