Here we go again--Woman pregnant with 18th Child

[uc pseudonym]

I will probably regret involving myself in this discussion, but I feel this needs to be said: there are millions upon millions of children who have died of malnutrition in third world countries. Most of their parents probably worked night and day, nearly starving themselves, to feed their children. Can you really say that this kind of suffering is God's will?

All I mean to say is that this discussion is idle debate or personal decision for us here, but it has major consequences across the world. I'd be hesitant to speak out too strongly on the subject.

[Shao Feng-Li]

I do forget how compounded the whole thing is...

._.

[ShiroiHikari]

I will probably regret involving myself in this discussion, but I feel this needs to be said: there are millions upon millions of children who have died of malnutrition in third world countries. Most of their parents probably worked night and day, nearly starving themselves, to feed their children. Can you really say that this kind of suffering is God's will?

You raise a very good and valid point.

[Shao Feng-Li]

Though, ultimately nothing happens outside of God's will.

[Hana Ryuuzaki]

[font="palatino Linotype"]I agree.
While it may seem that something may be out of His will, nothing truly is.[/font]

[Tsukuyomi]

What happens next is that when you're trying to call "Serena," you accidentally say "Selena" and then correct yourself by saying "Sierra." Before you know it, you're in a Bill Cosby comedy skit asking what your children's names are. XDD

Lol, ouch.. my stomach hurts now XDD

I was thinking last night (Showers are good for meditation, doncha know) that this line of thinking is very close to the Christian Science line of thinking that if God truly wants you to be well you will be. God uses all kinds of means for achieving what he wants, and who's to say modern medicine isn't one of them?

I think I said something like this in another thread, but it didn't take well o.o; Or, maybe it didn't come out right ^__^; Don't know, but thank you I'm not the only one who thinks this way

[Syreth]

I will probably regret involving myself in this discussion, but I feel this needs to be said: there are millions upon millions of children who have died of malnutrition in third world countries. Most of their parents probably worked night and day, nearly starving themselves, to feed their children. Can you really say that this kind of suffering is God's will?

All I mean to say is that this discussion is idle debate or personal decision for us here, but it has major consequences across the world. I'd be hesitant to speak out too strongly on the subject.

I understand what you are saying, and this is a good point. However, I don't think that the families are to blame as much as corrupt governments and renegade groups, such as those in Africa, who hoard resources and even steal the provisions that other countries give in aid. I would also imagine that birth control is not readily available in these places. They are in a difficult position, whether they have large families or not, and it's hard to understand what it's like. I can't rightfully say that I would behave differently than they would for sure.

[Tsukuyomi]

Everyone's situation is different. It's hard to say anything, really >_>

[Nate]

I would also imagine that birth control is not readily available in these places.

I might be completely wrong (and probably am, we'll have to wait until uc posts again), but I think what he's addressing here is the people that are saying birth control is wrong because it's against God's will. Thus, in places like Africa, if we assume birth control is sinful and wrong, is it really God's will for children to die constantly of malnutrition or for parents to literally work themselves to death to feed their kids, rather than wear a condom or take a pill?

I think that's the point he was trying to make, that even if birth control WERE readily available in these places, people would say that it still shouldn't be used, despite the alternative.

But again, I'm not trying to put words in his mouth, we'll just have to wait and see.

[GeneD]

This is probably a little off topic, but just for interest's sake: in Africa having a lot of children can be seen as a cultural thing. It is mainly based (as far as I know, but I'm no expert) on the belief that the more children you have the better you will be taken care of when you grow old and can no longer work. Therefore it might actually be very difficult to get people, especially if they are less educated, to practice birth control. (Heck, it's hard enough to convince people to wear condoms to try and protect themselves from Aids. -off topic mini:mutter:)

I agree with Nate and UC, although I possibly have a different understanding of what UC is saying, but this would lead to theological discussion and it is probably best not to go there.

why do you hate kids?

Because he thinks they taste bad!

That can't be right. At that age, the meat reaches optimal succulence and texture.

QUOTE from Charlie and the Chocolate Factory
"Of course you can! Everything in this room is eatable, even *I'm*(you're) eatable! But that is called "cannibalism," my dear children, and is in fact frowned upon in most societies."

[Warrior4Christ]

[quote="GeneD (post: 1225316)"]Here’]
Don't you mean "adopt out" the remainder? Or whatever verb you would use to be on the non-receiving end of the adoption...

[GeneD]

Don't you mean "adopt out" the remainder? Or whatever verb you would use to be on the non-receiving end of the adoption...

No, I mean that if they knew that they wanted so many kids, they could have a few children of their own and adopt any more they want. They would then be able to provide a good home for kids who otherwise might not ever have one. Hope that clears it up.

[Warrior4Christ]

No, I mean that if they knew that they wanted so many kids, they could have a few children of their own and adopt any more they want. They would then be able to provide a good home for kids who otherwise might not ever have one. Hope that clears it up.

Gah! I misread that as "kidless parents"... Sorry.

[Shao Feng-Li]

I might be completely wrong (and probably am, we'll have to wait until uc posts again), but I think what he's addressing here is the people that are saying birth control is wrong because it's against God's will. Thus, in places like Africa, if we assume birth control is sinful and wrong, is it really God's will for children to die constantly of malnutrition or for parents to literally work themselves to death to feed their kids, rather than wear a condom or take a pill?

I think that's the point he was trying to make, that even if birth control WERE readily available in these places, people would say that it still shouldn't be used, despite the alternative.

But again, I'm not trying to put words in his mouth, we'll just have to wait and see.

People often use Africa and such places to argue in favor of abortion, because they're going to die anyway (so they assume.)

I would still say that birth control is wrong. Though, it's difficult to condemn someone in that sort of situation for doing so. (Like, what do you expect people to do when you push them so far? It's even more difficult since these aren't Christian nations.)

Children and parents living in such poverty and dying like that are only the symptoms of the problems in these countries. Birth control is like a band-aid over a gang-greened gunshot wound.

[AsianBlossom]

Okay, I'm just going to throw my two cents into this hat and leave...you won't hear another word from me in this topic.

I believe birth control is evil and a sin because it interferes with the purpose that God has given sex--the creation of new life--which is good and holy (or sacred) inside the context of marriage. Perhaps birth control pills can have "certain" medical use (but these uses are few) such as controlling unstoppable menstruation (as I've heard cases of), but it should never be used to prevent having children. (This includes ALL types of birth control, save abstinence, which is completely natural and shows the virtue of self-control)

And on a final note, I have heard there is enough food for everybody on this planet, but the only reason it's not there is because of problems with distribution of said food.


Gee, actually, that was more like three or four cents XD...ah, well...

[Gabriel 9.0]

I agree. Its best to wait until marriage.

[dyzzispell]

And here I am, just trying to have one child...

It's been 2 years, and... nothing. Oh well, God's timing is perfect. I just have to keep reminding myself of that.

(And I never took birth control either at any point in my life.)

[Radical Dreamer]

I believe birth control is evil and a sin because it interferes with the purpose that God has given sex--the creation of new life--which is good and holy (or sacred) inside the context of marriage. Perhaps birth control pills can have "certain" medical use (but these uses are few) such as controlling unstoppable menstruation (as I've heard cases of), but it should never be used to prevent having children. (This includes ALL types of birth control, save abstinence, which is completely natural and shows the virtue of self-control)

I'd really rather we didn't go down this path, but while you are allowed to have your opinion, I am going to have to flatly disagree with you. However, taking this much further would probably put us in the realm of theological debate, and I'd really rather not see this thread locked. So, that being said, I'll only say that if I were my mom (who used birth control at a point in life), I'd be pretty offended.

[Shao Feng-Li]

...

I'm so done with this thread. It's starting to cause me stress and I certainly don't need that.

[termyt]

Hmmm. I posted here what I was going to say in another thread. How'd that happen?

This is no thread for me, that's for sure. I'm not one to interpret how the tools God has given us should be used. I certainly wouldn't be one to say that using a serious, life preserving tool should ever be used for recreation, even though I play baseball and enjoy recreational target shooting.

[RidleyofZebes]

"That's not exactly what I mean, Nate. I'm saying that if you choose to have sex and get pregnant..."

...

Um, I do believe that that would be biologically impossible, certain things excluded of course. *ahem*

[Nate]

People often use Africa and such places to argue in favor of abortion, because they're going to die anyway (so they assume.)

The difference here is that murder is explicitly defined as a sin in the Bible, so even IF the child was definitely going to die, it does not excuse murder (the Bible does say that evil should never be done so that good may result).

The problem is that birth control is NOT explicitly defined as a sin in the Bible, so it's more difficult to argue against it since it's based solely on interpretation. In this case, I would argue that it is probably better to use birth control and not have a child at all than to have a child that is more likely destined to die (or a child you would have to torture yourself to raise). However, IF a child still was to be conceived, then it should still be delivered, because abortion is completely a sin.

Children and parents living in such poverty and dying like that are only the symptoms of the problems in these countries. Birth control is like a band-aid over a gang-greened gunshot wound.

Oh I agree with that completely. Not having kids would only be treating the symptoms and not the disease, so to speak. However this analogy is a bit flawed because the people living in Africa really don't have the power to change their situation.

I have heard there is enough food for everybody on this planet, but the only reason it's not there is because of problems with distribution of said food.

I have no idea if that's true or not, I haven't really researched it. I have heard from UN studies that for the past three years the total world food consumption has been greater than the total world food production. That doesn't imply that there isn't enough food for everyone though, considering that some countries, like, oh, I don't know, AMERICA, tend to eat more than they need to.

Distribution and of course corrupt government officials are a problem, but the fact is that it's a problem out of the hands of the people living there. Saying "There's plenty of food, it's only a distribution problem!" isn't any comfort to the people starving.

(Heck, it's hard enough to convince people to wear condoms to try and protect themselves from Aids. -off topic

The problem is that certain sects of Christianity believe any condom use is a sin, even if it's to prevent sexually transmitted diseases. Which is one of the biggest reason why AIDS is running rampant in Africa.

Also considering a good friend of mine has AIDS and if he were to get married, he would probably not want to give his wife AIDS, and no marriage can exist without a healthy sex life, they're basically saying he can't get married.

THAT is something I cannot support at all.

Oh I almost forgot about this. XP

Um, I do believe that that would be biologically impossible, certain things excluded of course. *ahem*

Man didn't you ever see the movie "Junior?"

Yeah. Me neither.

[Syreth]

I might be completely wrong (and probably am, we'll have to wait until uc posts again), but I think what he's addressing here is the people that are saying birth control is wrong because it's against God's will.

My comment about birth control wasn't necessarily to debunk an argument, but to simply point out that it's worth considering when talking about family life/decisions in developing countries.

Children and parents living in such poverty and dying like that are only the symptoms of the problems in these countries. Birth control is like a band-aid over a gang-greened gunshot wound.

I agree with this as well. That is essentially what I was trying to get at with my post.

[Technomancer]

Also considering a good friend of mine has AIDS and if he were to get married, he would probably not want to give his wife AIDS, and no marriage can exist without a healthy sex life, they're basically saying he can't get married.

Depends on the group. For example, a statement made by Catholic clergy on this issue recently made some waves in the American media. Basically, it was stating that under the conditions you hust mentioned, the use of condoms is acceptable. It wasn't anything particulary novel, but CNN et al seemed to treat the idea like it was earth-shaking or something.

[Etoh*the*Greato]

Condoms just don't feel like enough for me... That'd be like dipping your hand in to a flame wearing discount fire-proof gloves: No guarantee it's gonna work.

[Tsukuyomi]

I might be completely wrong (and probably am, we'll have to wait until uc posts again), but I think what he's addressing here is the people that are saying birth control is wrong because it's against God's will. Thus, in places like Africa, if we assume birth control is sinful and wrong, is it really God's will for children to die constantly of malnutrition or for parents to literally work themselves to death to feed their kids, rather than wear a condom or take a pill?

I think that's the point he was trying to make, that even if birth control WERE readily available in these places, people would say that it still shouldn't be used, despite the alternative.

But again, I'm not trying to put words in his mouth, we'll just have to wait and see.

That's the same thing I got out of it too ^^ It's a conflicting conflict (:P) u_u/ We don't know everyone's situation.. Do we? So, can we really speak for them o.O? Unless we have been in a situation such as that.. I'm really doubtful we can.

[ShiroiHikari]

Condoms just don't feel like enough for me... That'd be like dipping your hand in to a flame wearing discount fire-proof gloves: No guarantee it's gonna work.

Good point, but I think in most cases, using them is better than not using them.

[Tsukuyomi]

I agree. Its best to wait until marriage.

My best friend is married and uses birth control o.o She feels they're not financially set/secured (or however you want to put it) to support a family ^__^ Is that wrong of her? I'm not speaking for everyone, but I think she's being very responsible Not just saying that because she's my best friend either

Good point, but I think in most cases, using them is better than not using them.

I agree with that. It may not be 100 percent, but at least it is something ^__^

[minakichan]

and no marriage can exist without a healthy sex life, they're basically saying he can't get married.

While I don't agree with this-- I'm sure that there are plenty of content couples who are physically unable or unwilling, for whatever reason, to have sex (like... old people!), I think it raises the point that a couple who does not want to have kids should not be barred from sex. Some people say that sex should only be used with the aim of reproduction because that was its purpose, but what about infertile/sterile couples? Should they be barred from making love just because they can't spawn off offspring?

I'm saying all of this despite the fact that, as some people know, I don't believe in sex.

...That's right. I don't believe it exists.

[Etoh*the*Greato]

Sex, being a gift from God, is something meant to strengthen the bonds of a marriage as well as provide children. Saying it is only a reproductive process is to deny the act the fullness and richness it can bring to a relationship.

That said, old people have sex. Sometimes they have more than young people. Talk to nursing home and retirement village attendants for the gory details.