Transvestism

[Slater]

I think it boils down to the cultural thing mentioned before... I don't know if one form of clothing or one cultural "dresscode" could be higher than any other. I mean, if things had gone the right way, we wouldn't need clothes at all.

(a degree of lulz intended)

[Song_of_Storms]

Interesting topic. n.n Yeah, its kinda strange that girls can wear men's clothes without any ridicule, but if I guy wears female-like clothes, he's considered a homo. Of course, the thought of a guy in a dress in funny. XD Maybe its just a fashion statement? Maybe guys just want the same rights as us? Yeah, its weird, but as long as its just for the clothes and doesn't have an ulterior sexual motive, fine with me.

But~ personally, if I saw a man dressed like a girl, I'd either think it was for a joke or he was insane.

[Shinja]

its a common misconception that the word of God relies on cultural sensibilities. It is rather the opposite; cultural sensibilities should follow the word of God. if the Lord despised the wearing of opposite gender clothing in the old testament, than you can bet your life he still does today. it has nothing to do with your view of how it affects your spiritual life and everything to do with glorifying God. we must not forget that God is the same yesterday today and tomorrow, and these men not being followers of Christ to begin with, their motivation will most certainly not be seeking the Lords will. its one of those things where if you have to ask then you probably dont need to be apart of it.

[Song_of_Storms]

See, I never knew that. n.n But if God is against it, then I'll take his judgment over mine any day. XD

[Radical Dreamer]

[quote="Shinja (post: 1225386)"]its a common misconception that the word of God relies on cultural sensibilities. It is rather the opposite]

Do you mean to suggest that a man wearing a kilt is a sin?

[minakichan]

its a common misconception that the word of God relies on cultural sensibilities. It is rather the opposite; cultural sensibilities should follow the word of God. if the Lord despised the wearing of opposite gender clothing in the old testament, than you can bet your life he still does today.

I would agree to some extent-- sins then are sins now-- but I think culture does have some influence. For example:

1 Corinthians 11:5-6 - But any woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered disgraces her head, for it is one and the same thing as having a shaved head. For if a woman will not cover her head, she should cut off her hair. But if it is disgraceful for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, she should cover her head.

In that time and place, a woman covered her head out of modesty. This shouldn't mean that women need to wear headscarves and burkas today because exposing hair isn't indecent nowadays. It's my understanding that God doesn't care about the physical cloth covering physical hair as much as the symbol and attitude it represents. A woman wearing women's slacks today is not crossdressing; a woman wearing any pants at all in the past would be. Just my two cents.

Although, um, hrm, I wonder. I really want a pair of guys' cargo pants because I like the baggy look, even on girls...

[Shinja]

a kilt is not a dress, nor has it ever been one, but rather a garment for male wear. in the past men have worn robes and garments not totally dissimilar to modern skirts, but the difference is women never wore them in fact it would have been indecent for a lady to wear a skirt that short. the whole thing about head coverings for women, or men having long hair is a moot point because one, it isnt listed as a sin and two it only deals with the act of prayer and prophecy. while God does speak out in very plain terms against the act of cross dressing. the one disgrace does not exempt the act of cross dressing regardless of how you look at it. the two are only connected except; in that if you follow them you will glorify God, one by not sinning, the other by not disgracing yourself. its not relative to the culture, as these are viewed through Gods eyes not mine. i think the biggest problem is we are trying to view the Word through our culture which doesn't exalt the will of God in many ways. upon the first act of sin in the garden God one made adam and eve clothing and then through moses made sure the people knew they were to be different. but i think this is different than women wearing pants or men wearing a kilt. both are made for that particular sex and it would only then be a problem is it cause others to sin.. i.e. modesty. but theres no way i guy in heels and a dress is not openly cross dressing.

[Cognitive Gear]

[quote="Shinja (post: 1225386)"]its a common misconception that the word of God relies on cultural sensibilities. It is rather the opposite]

I think it should be noted that we need to take the scriptures in the context of the culture and of the time it was written in, as it relates to our culture. I'm certain that you aren't saying that Christian men should walk around in robes with untrimmed beards, nor that women should wear head coverings 24/7.

I'm certain that at some point in the future, masculine dresses will be made and fashionable. If this occurred, would it be unbiblical for a man to dress in a masculine manner?

[minakichan]

Yeah, some designers have actually been pushing for male skirts. =/

What about emo boys wearing "girl" pants? They aren't actually trying to look like girls, they're going for a specific fashion statement, and they don't want anyone to mistake them for women. (And yes, we could debate whether emoness is "godly" or not. That's not the point.)

[Shinja]

ok in Deuteronomy 22 where this verse come from there are two things going on here, one is specific things you should never do and two are things you should do. some are completely absent from modern life such as "Make tassels on the four corners of the cloak you wear" we dont really wear cloaks anymore no biggie its not a sin to not wear tassles anymore. the big thing that stands out though is particularly in

verse 5 A woman must not wear men's clothing, nor a man wear women's clothing, for the LORD your God detests anyone who does this.

ok the big identifier of this verse is "God detests anyone who does this" this states directly that this is wrong, not just a little wrong but big wrong. its no mentioned on any of there other dress related verses and therefore cannot be construed as being a cultural thing. its not saying you have to wear dresses, its saying you have to wear clothing that doesnt make you look like the other sex, and specifically gender only objects. there are alot of problems with emo style not mentioned here but i would have to ask do you need girl pants to identify yourself?

[Cognitive Gear]

ok the big identifier of this verse is "God detests anyone who does this" this states directly that this is wrong, not just a little wrong but big wrong. its no mentioned on any of there other dress related verses and therefore cannot be construed as being a cultural thing. its not saying you have to wear dresses, its saying you have to wear clothing that doesnt make you look like the other sex, and specifically gender only objects. there are alot of problems with emo style not mentioned here but i would have to ask do you need girl pants to identify yourself?

I think there is a communication problem going on here.

Most people here aren't saying that it is ok to purposefully dress as the opposite gender, but that we need to remember how this verse will apply throughout the ages and different cultures. Different cultures have different definitions of what gender specific wear is. Since the Bible doesn't spell out what clothing falls under which category, we can't make a universal truth statement about what is masculine and what is feminine.

As an example, pants weren't around until about 1760. Prior to this, men wore various skirt and dresses, as did women. The things that men would have to wear to appear masculine then are different from what we would wear to do the same now.

[Nate]

ok the big identifier of this verse is "God detests anyone who does this" this states directly that this is wrong, not just a little wrong but big wrong.

Oh really?

3 Do not eat any detestable thing. 4 These are the animals you may eat: the ox, the sheep, the goat, 5 the deer, the gazelle, the roe deer, the wild goat, the ibex, the antelope and the mountain sheep.

If the key word is "detests" then guess what? We can't eat shrimp, pork, calimari, cheeseburgers, or 90% of the foods we eat.

Unless of course the word "detests" was a CULTURAL thing which means if I decide to cosplay as Sailor Moon I'm not committing a sin. Well, except I'd be blinding people.

[minakichan]

NO CALAMARI?! *horror of horrors*

Nate, you might run the risk of causing emotional damage to other people. Then again, I don't know what you look like or how you would look in drag.

I do think that wearing boyish clothes is different from pretending to live as a man (and vice versa for men to women). Regardless, VK does creep me out.

[Nate]

Nate, you might run the risk of causing emotional damage to other people. Then again, I don't know what you look like or how you would look in drag.

Let me put it this way. I think I forced people to gouge out their own eyes when I posted a shirtless picture of myself on Livejournal.

Except for Cap'n Nick. He drew lasers coming out of my chest.

I do think that wearing boyish clothes is different from pretending to live as a man (and vice versa for men to women).

This is why despite how many people rave over Strawberry Eggs I can't bring myself to watch it. :\

Ranma doesn't bother me at all though.

[minakichan]

People rave over Strawberry Eggs? I don't believe you.

...I just realized how little right I have to speak on this topic, considering the ridiculous volume of bad (and occasionally not-that-bad) shoujo crossdressing manga I read.

[Sheenar]

I like wearing guy's basketball shorts and sweat pants--they are so much more comfortable (and modest) then the girl counterparts offered at the store.
(Seriously, the girl's shorts are so short...I'd definitely feel a breeze...).

But I'm not pretending to be a guy. I just wear these articles of clothing for practical and modesty reasons. People still know that I'm a girl.

[Shao Feng-Li]

*sigh* The food laws were for Old Testament times... And God revealed in the NT that they had been done away with.

The problem comes when men are trying to be women and women are trying to be men.

[Prince Asbel]

[quote="Shinja (post: 1225386)"]its a common misconception that the word of God relies on cultural sensibilities. It is rather the opposite]

I have a question. What would you say to a Christian girl who wears pants and thinks it's fine?

[Nate]

*sigh* The food laws were for Old Testament times... And God revealed in the NT that they had been done away with.

The problem comes when men are trying to be women and women are trying to be men.

Oh I agree completely. I was merely saying that the use of the word "detestable" isn't proof that the law has no cultural context.

[Doubleshadow]

As I said in another thread when this came up:

I think motivation counts for a lot. Cross-dressing because you want to be the other gender would signify a form of envy, jealousy, or coveting. At the very least its ingratitude and possibly serious emotional or psychology disorders that need treated, not reinforced.
As far as goofing off or theater, etc., I would check convictions and whether or not you are bringing glory or honor to God.

[Radical Dreamer]

I think motivation counts for a lot. Cross-dressing because you want to be the other gender would signify a form of envy, jealousy, or coveting. At the very least its ingratitude and possibly serious emotional or psychology disorders that need treated, not reinforced.
As far as goofing off or theater, etc., I would check convictions and whether or not you are bringing glory or honor to God.

Q-F-T. When it comes down to it, I think it's a matter of heart--after all, God does look at the heart, not the outward appearance. If someone is cross-dressing to try to be a woman due to homosexual tendencies, trying to deceive, etc., then yes, that'd be a sin. But I see nothing wrong with cross-dressing for the stage/as a joke when it's not your lifestyle.

[AJV]

I don't think guys should wear skirts or dresses (especially if they have hairly legs) and other girl stuff.
Girls on the other hand are a bit differnt because they wear jeans,shorts,and other guy stuff.
It depends on the person I guess.

What about if a guy acts like a girl or a girl acts like guy,is that form of Transvestism?
Just wondering.

[K. Ayato]

I don't know if this has been addressed earlier or not, but if it has, let me restate it. Transvestism is defined (and I'm a psychology graduate so this is the definition of choice for now) as a person wearing clothing of the opposite gender and getting some sort of SEXUAL PLEASURE (caps for emphasis) out of it.

So with that definition in mind, I would say there's no harm or offense for a girl to wear pants or guys' shirts. I'm speaking for the girls' side, seeing I'm one of them.

[Tsukuyomi]

I don't know if this has been addressed earlier or not, but if it has, let me restate it. Transvestism is defined (and I'm a psychology graduate so this is the definition of choice for now) as a person wearing clothing of the opposite gender and getting some sort of SEXUAL PLEASURE (caps for emphasis) out of it.

So with that definition in mind, I would say there's no harm or offense for a girl to wear pants or guys' shirts. I'm speaking for the girls' side, seeing I'm one of them.

I can honestly say I wear pants and feel NO PLEASURE from it whatsoever u_u/ I can say something else on this, but it may arise to some argument, so I won't ^__^

[minakichan]

Transvestism is defined (and I'm a psychology graduate so this is the definition of choice for now) as a person wearing clothing of the opposite gender and getting some sort of SEXUAL PLEASURE (caps for emphasis) out of it.

Whoa, really? I had no clue!

So what do you call people who crossdress and pass themselves off for the opposite gender without caring for sexual pleasure (i.e. those folks who say that they were "born in the wrong body")? Is that just transgender -vestite?

This is all very confusing.

I can honestly say I wear pants and feel NO PLEASURE from it whatsoever u_u/ I can say something else on this, but it may arise to some argument, so I won't ^__^

I dress boyishly, and I feel a lot of pleasure from it. It's just more comfortable!

So it's not THAT kind of pleasure for me ^^

But the feeling kind of evaporates when I get mistaken for a guy ("How can I help you, SIR?"). ._.

[Mr. SmartyPants]

Whoa, really? I had no clue!

So what do you call people who crossdress and pass themselves off for the opposite gender without caring for sexual pleasure (i.e. those folks who say that they were "born in the wrong body")? Is that just transgender -vestite?

This is all very confusing.

They are simply crossdressers that feel that they were born in the wrong body. Transgender is the correct term.

[Maledicte]

I know at least two people who wear or have worn girl's jeans. One of them is on CAA. They both wear them because the women in their lives found it attractive. And both of them still look like men.

I do not think that either of them are transvestites.

[Mr. SmartyPants]

They can wear women's jeans because they have small waists and legs...

Smaller than mine, at least. XD

[Maledicte]

They can wear women's jeans because they have small waists and legs...

Smaller than mine, at least. XD

Actually, one of them was a bit pudgy, but he wore a looser size.

The skinny one, on the other hand...

[Cognitive Gear]

I know at least two people who wear or have worn girl's jeans. One of them is on CAA. They both wear them because the women in their lives found it attractive. And both of them still look like men.

I do not think that either of them are transvestites.

The ladies found it attractive, eh? Perhaps I should procure a pair of these.