Fundamentalism strikes again!

[Eric]

My mom decided to kick me out of the house for good because she doesn't approve of me listening to Satanic music or anything else that I like (books, movies, anime, video games, whatever....). She claims that it's all bringing evil spirits into the house (including my old Pokemon cards:lol:) and that my 3 year old sister has been seeing "demons" when all they really are are the shadows created by furniture and doors (I've seen her look directly at them when she starts freaking out by them; she most likely inherited anxiety/paranoia from my step-dad since he has it BIG TIME, along with all his other mental problems, a lot of his other family is pretty messed up in the head too). My own pastor came over as well to try to convince me that I'm wrong. They claim that it's somehow "changed" me and that it's what's been causing my depression (even though that has been going on for even longer than I've been listening to music to begin with; it's most likely chemical imbalances or something of the sort, though I haven't gotten it checked out yet), even though they know and understand me far less than anyone outside of my family does, including my online friends, and they even DARE to say that not only I cannot possibly be a Christian, but EVERYONE ELSE IN THE WORLD who believes the same as me isn't and that we are all damned to hell. My pastor said that he saw "bad vibes" around me or some crap like that, and that it was the same as when he was around "possessed" people. I kept trying to tell them how utterly ridiculous this all was, but they wouldn't listen to a word I said. Mom kept going on about how she "has no choice" and "Oh, I really hate to do this, it hurts me...." blah blah blah, and how I will never have God's blessings in my life unless I bend to their will. I just love how her idea of showing "love" to me is by alienating me from the rest of my family. I wasn't angry when this was going on, but I sure as hell was extremely disappointed that they'd do this to me, although I wasn't at all surprised since I already knew what mom's mindset is, and that it is utterly incompatible with and on a completely different level than my own.

Needless to say, I will no longer have anything to do with that church any more.


I don't know where exactly I'll be staying at now....I'll talk to some people at work and see if we can figure something out. I'm sure they will understand me far better than they ever will.

[beau99]

...



WHAT. THE. HECK.

Seriously, that's really messed up.

[RobinSena]

Yikes. That's crazy. I'll be praying for things to work out well for you. =)

[~darkelfgirl~]

Hmm...sounds like my old church. Once again, the 'witch-hunting'. My old church hasn't gained a considerable amount of members since I'd left there (about 7-10 years ago). They just seemed point fingers at everyone, damning them to Hell, instead of actually preaching the Gospel and how to be saved. I never really understood any of the Bible until I moved to a different church (and I got saved at that new church).

Dear God, save us. It's interesting that we're just nitpicking at things while letting the unsaved just slip by us.

Hope and pray things get better for you ^^

[Sheenar]

Yep, Christians sure are good at picking and kicking at each other...no wonder some people are turned off by Christianity because of the way some Christians treat each other...
I sincerely believe that God will provide for you. Since I no longer live with my mom either (long story), I understand. But God is so faithful and even when our biological families desert/hurt us, we have our Christian family to help us and to lift us up to God in prayer. I know my church family means so much more to me now that I'm on my own.
I pray that you are able to find a body of believers who truly seek the face of God and who can be your family. Hang in there, friend.
God can and does use even the worst of situations and creates good out of them. I know this from experience.

[Shao Feng-Li]

I remember the the Pentecostal church I went to; everyone there thought Pokemon was evil 0_o;

Anyways, I hope things work out for you :\

[EricTheFred]

1 Peter is one of my least favorite books, but it has one of the most comforting passages I know:

"Be glad of this, even though it may be necessary now for you to be sad for a while because of the many trials you suffer. Their purpose is to prove that your faith is genuine..."

It's troubling to learn that even a mother's love can be turned into a tool of torment, but you have surely learned by now that all things human are imperfect. Be strong, and be comforted in knowing that removing yourself from that household at least reduces the confusion in your mother's life. For all we know, God's plan for both of you is at work here.

Find a church home as soon as you can. You need to have the counsel of fellow christians, and the pastors of most conventional churches have some form of training in family counseling. I think at this moment that would be a good thing for you to have.

[Ingemar]

I am afraid that I will have to be the voice of dissent here.

While I think that it is a bit harsh and petty that your mother would throw you out over your choice of music, the fact remains that she is your mother and the Scripture calls for us to obey our parents in all things, except when they lead you into sin.

Not letting you listen to whatever you choose is not sin.

Forgive me, but the impression I am getting here is that you are sacrificing your relationship with your mother and fellowship with other Christians because of your entertainment choices. To me that smacks of selfishness and pride. That is my view alone, so feel free to castigate and chastise me as you see fit.

Now I know watching a movie or listening to a song is not an automatic ticket to Hell. But consider the following scripture (1 Corinthians 8, selected verses)

[1] Now concerning things offered to idols: We know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffs up, but love edifies.
[2] And if anyone thinks that he knows anything, he knows nothing yet as he ought to know.
[4] Therefore concerning the eating of things offered to idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and there is no other God but one.
[7] However there is not in everyone that knowledge; for some, with consciousness of the idol, until now eat it as a thing offered to an idol; an their conscience, being weak, is defiled.
[8] But food does not commend us to God; for neither if we eat are we the better, nor if we do not eat are we the worse.
[9] But beware lest somehow this liberty of yours become a stumbling block to those who are weak. (emphasis mine)

You may think, "What does food for idols have to do with my situation?" Simple. Replace "food" with "music" and the case presented in this chapter mirrors your own. You know that music in and of itself is not a harmful thing. Yet your mother and those in your church do not have this knowledge and are stumbled. And this stumbling block leads them to sin.

I do not wish to tell you what to do, as your choice is ultimately between you and God. However, I do ask that you consider your choices--listening to whatever you please vs. fellowship with your church and especially your mother--and prioritize them carefully.

Lastly, I ask you to consider the attitude of your own heart, as Paul says in verse 13--

Therefore, if food makes my brother stumble, I will never again eat meat, lest I make my brother stumble.

[EricTheFred]

Ingemar, while I get what you are saying, I see that Eric is a twenty-one-year-old man, not a child. It is his mother's choice to order him out of the house, not his.

You are suggesting he should obey his mother when he clearly believes that she is being lead by a false prophet (a church centered upon the criticism of their neighbors, rather than the love of Christ.) At his age, he is most certainly old enough to make this judgment, and to see the choices his mother and her pastor are making as sinful. That is the issue here, not his 'entertainment choices.'

[Fish and Chips]

I would advise this thread towards Romans 14.

Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. Who are you to judge someone else's servant?

*Clipped*

Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way. As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean. If your brother is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy your brother for whom Christ died. Do not allow what you consider good to be spoken of as evil. For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men.

If this were a clean-cut case of "What you do causes me to struggle," I'd side with Ingemar. Partially. But this scenario isn't. This is condemnation, and not for ones' own sake but the perceived insufficiencies of another brother in Christ on a fairly insubstantial issue.

He is not sacrificing his relationship with her, she is sacrificing her relationship with him.

[Mr. SmartyPants]

He is not sacrificing his relationship with her, she is sacrificing her relationship with him.

Is she really? Or is it just his perception of the events that are transpiring?

[Fish and Chips]

Is she really? Or is it just his perception of the events that are transpiring?

Ryan if you are going to bring doubt to Eric's credibility, don't be all cloak and dagger about it. State your case for discussion.

[Mr. SmartyPants]

Judging by the bitter and almost snarky tone of Eric's OP, I can't help but feel that his story here is too one-sided.

My apologies. I will certainly keep the matter in prayer so that both sides can grow in wisdom and be able to diplomatically solve this issue, but I can't say I can fully give the benefit of the doubt here.

Regardless of who is at fault here, I think it would be the best for you to pray that God blesses your mother and pastor.

We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ.

[Song_of_Storms]

Have you tried to reconcile with your Mother? Maybe if you were to explain to her that your a mature, Christian adult, and that your entertainment preferences would never be anything you couldn't handle. ^^ The best thing you can do is to pray. Perhaps you can get your family ( and late Pastor ) together for a group prayer? That might show them that your sincere in your faith and something silly like music isn't going to harm your relationship with Christ. Other then that, I'm not sure. I hope it works out OK. I hate seeing family problems... ;~;

[ShiroiHikari]

I would advise this thread towards Romans 14.

If this were a clean-cut case of "What you do causes me to struggle," I'd side with Ingemar. Partially. But this scenario isn't. This is condemnation, and not for ones' own sake but the perceived insufficiencies of another brother in Christ on a fairly insubstantial issue.

He is not sacrificing his relationship with her, she is sacrificing her relationship with him.

QFT.

I don't understand why people would drive their own children away from them over something so trivial as entertainment. And calling you "possessed"? I think that's overreacting.

[Mr. SmartyPants]

I don't understand why people would drive their own children away from them over something so trivial as entertainment.

Wouldn't you say that it really depends on what kind of entertainment you're letting yourself be exposed to? XD

[Radical Dreamer]

I'd actually kind of just like to step in here and say that I would really like to see this thread stay as civil as possible. Try to stay away from bashing the church mentioned in the OP, and let's try to stay away from who's right and wrong, here. I'm really hoping I won't have to lock this thread, so remember to think before you post so we can keep it as civil as possible, guys.

[Ingemar]

I just want to say one more thing.

Churches and pastors can be hard hearted and pig headed. So I don't blame you for wanting to leave. But I wish that you could come to a reconciliation with your mother somehow because like it or not God made her your mother, and your adulthood does not magically erase this relationship, nor your obligation to be humble and obedient.

If you do so, perhaps she can realize the error of her ways.

It is good to make amends with all our relationships while we still can.

[Sheenar]

I have to disagree, Ingemar.
We should honor and obey our parents, yes, but we shouldn't allow ourselves to be manipulated by them.
For example, my mother called me selfish once because I didn't buy her a baked potato from Wendy's. I had bought one for myself after a doctor's appointment so I could take my medicine. She yelled at me and slammed the door. She later disowned me because I went to my aunt's house because I was afraid. Was I at fault because I didn't buy her one? No. Sometimes parents manipulate their children so they feel they have control. Is it right? No. But some parents do it. I still love my mother, but I left so I would not continue to be manipulated and have my feelings messed around with.

Keep us updated.

[Mr. SmartyPants]

I just want to say one more thing.

Churches and pastors can be hard hearted and pig headed. So I don't blame you for wanting to leave. But I wish that you could come to a reconciliation with your mother somehow because like it or not God made her your mother, and your adulthood does not magically erase this relationship, nor your obligation to be humble and obedient.

If you do so, perhaps she can realize the error of her ways.

It is good to make amends with all our relationships while we still can.

Just to add on to this, I think that it could be a wise thing to humble yourself and simply do as she wishes. As Ingemar said, she could realize the error of her ways, but not only that, she could potentially see the maturity inside of you.

We are indeed called to obey and submit to our parents, even if we see them as wrong. Only when they coerce us to sin against God is when we are to reject their suggestions. If she is condemning you for your actions that are deemed not immoral, I will say it's an extremely tricky situation here. However, to be on the safe side, I imagine it could be best to still obey what she asks you to do. The reason I say that is because regardless of what she says to you, either in a loving way such as "I believe what you are listening to is immoral" or unloving such as "Listening to this is going to send you to Hell!", the underlying message is the same: She disapproves of what you enjoy and finds it to be immoral. And as a Christian, we are certainly to respond to non-love with love.

Whatever your mother's reasoning may be, I think it may be the best to suck it up and abide by her rules. If you're living under her roof, you're gonna have to live by her rules. Since you are a Christian, you are to have a servant's heart towards people; especially your mother.

And Sheenar, I understand what you're saying. Some relationships may simply be beyond repair; at least repaired back to a harmonious state. You may do your best to love your mother, but if your mother absolutely refuses your love, you have no choice but to simply pray them for God's blessing and move on. Of course, you still must love them, but I imagine there is no way you can really show them your love on a personal level.

[Fish and Chips]

The fatal flaw in this argument is that it is not a case of "My house, my rules," but more appropriately "Your life, my rules." You draw it such that if Eric was to surrender all his personal taste under his mother's roof, fine, move to an inner-city apartment and bring it all back, fine. No. Their relationship would still be cut short.

There is a difference between "I dislike metal and disagree with metal. There will be no metal in this household" and "I dislike metal and disagree with metal. If you listen to metal you are damned" and considering his mother saw fit to call in the local pastor to try and convince her son that he "Cannot possibly be a Christian," this falls under the second bit. If he obeys her then he is living a lie and she is deluding herself. If he moves away, now or in 50 years, and even then continues his hobbies, he will resent her and she will look down on him.

This really is a lose-lose scenario.

[Mave]

Dear Eric,

I can't say what's right or what's wrong just by reading your post. Even with my closest friends, it's never easy to be objective. I just want you to know that the members here have presented two point of views, both which are worth considering carefully. But in the end, this is between you and God. What does He want you to do about this situation? There are some choices to be made and not all of them have to be made today. God knows your situation best so pray about it, keep calm and let the Holy Spirit guide you towards the best step.

In my opinion [feel free to take with a grain of salt], the first priority would be to find a place to live at [goodness, how are you still posting in CAA?]. Whether you go back home or find your own place, settle this issue first. Secondly, I would find another local church for fellowship and for learning His Word. The moment I move myself away from church/God, I generally start listening to only myself, which I deem dangerous spiritually since my heart is extremely self-centred. Next thing I know, I'm labelling myself angry, defensive, self-pitying, depressed.......and blaming everyone for my problems.

I know it's difficult to trust church again after this whole experience with the previous. I've had issues similar before, with the whole 'you shouldn't listen to secular music etc.' although it wasn't as extreme since my parents weren't involved. BUT God taught me that the purpose of my life is to love people. He commanded me to love even if no one loves me back. To be kind even if no one is kind to me. To respect others [my parents] even if they don't respect me. To try to understand others even if they don't bother to understand me.

I sure didn't feel like doing any of this! Don't be surprised if God asks you to do the unthinkable. God asked me to ask for forgiveness from my previous church! I was aghast - "But but but.....THEY hurt me. They're the crazy ones. They're wrong. Why should I?" But I had angry and hateful thoughts of these ppl and I was wrong in that respect. Once again, this is between you and God.

Who knows what God is trying to do with your life. Whatever it is, you can't be wrong if you stay with God. Maybe God wants to you to help your church or parents. I don't know. It's Ok if you don't feel ready to face them, act upon this or talk about this just yet. This is just a thought in the long run....But I do believe that God uses all situations [even the painful and unhappy ones] to help us overcome weaknesses and become better testimonies as Christians.

Guess this doesn't really help much but at least, I hope it offers some form of encouragement. Pls take care, be patient and graceful. Find some healthy outlet for any anger and PRAY. Calming the mind down on a regular basis is really good for the soul and spirit. The line of thinking tends to be clearer after that.

We'll pray for Wisdom, Peace and Confidence in the Lord and hope for the best solution according to God's Will. Do your best and surrender the rest to God, Eric!

[Eric]

Have you tried to reconcile with your Mother? Maybe if you were to explain to her that your a mature, Christian adult, and that your entertainment preferences would never be anything you couldn't handle. ^^

Believe me, I've tried to get her to see my point of view, but she will never listen to me, and neither will my pastor. They always insist that it's somehow brainwashing me through subliminal messages, and that I don't know myself better than they do (saying "you can't see yourself in the mirror"), even though they don't know me nearly as well as even some of my online friends, much less anyone else I know (like at work or former schoolmates), and none of them would ever make such an absurd claim. They can't read my mind, and they shouldn't pretend to either. They're being totally illogical, and since I myself am [and have always been] a very logical and rational person, they just won't ever get it. I haven't been getting mad at them or yelling at them or anything like that; I've certainly been a lot more calm about it than they've been, especially my pastor (although my mom did yell at me a few times). I told my mom time and time again that I had no problem taking my stuff out of the house (I put it in a friend's basement, along with basically all my other stuff--I'm staying there for the night), but that I do have a VERY big problem with her kicking me out just because I don't think the same way she does, and with her claiming that it's all my fault that this is happening (which is blame-shifting; she's just looking for something to persecute out of desperation of her own situation with her husband, since they've been on the verge of divorcing many times because she refuses to address the real problem at hand, which is him, but she obviously can't see that). I'm not doing any of this out of some stupid sense of pride or selfishness, but I'm not going to lie to others--and most certainly not to myself--about something just so that they will accept me. If they can't accept me for who I am and who I've been (I've been listening to Satanic and other non-Christian music for a good deal longer than all the problems in my house have been going on, so the two are obviously not related; they're just looking for a scapegoat), then that's their problem. I told them that I do appreciate their concern, but it's totally unnecessary, unwanted, and very misguided. It's unfortunate that things have to be this way, but I refuse to be fake. That is my ultimatum.

[Eric]

I am afraid that I will have to be the voice of dissent here.

While I think that it is a bit harsh and petty that your mother would throw you out over your choice of music, the fact remains that she is your mother and the Scripture calls for us to obey our parents in all things, except when they lead you into sin.

Not letting you listen to whatever you choose is not sin.

Forgive me, but the impression I am getting here is that you are sacrificing your relationship with your mother and fellowship with other Christians because of your entertainment choices. To me that smacks of selfishness and pride. That is my view alone, so feel free to castigate and chastise me as you see fit.

Now I know watching a movie or listening to a song is not an automatic ticket to Hell. But consider the following scripture (1 Corinthians 8, selected verses)



You may think, "What does food for idols have to do with my situation?" Simple. Replace "food" with "music" and the case presented in this chapter mirrors your own. You know that music in and of itself is not a harmful thing. Yet your mother and those in your church do not have this knowledge and are stumbled. And this stumbling block leads them to sin.

How can something be a stumbling block for others if they have absolutely no contact with it? I rarely even played my music on my stereo], and I have pretty much nothing to do with it aside from occasionally watching a new movie in the theater).

Oh, and a few nights ago I overheard them talking about how interracial marriage is a sin too....I would seriously have to question someone's character if they believe that, especially because we have an interracial couple in our church. How would they feel if they knew what my mom and step-dad said about that?

According to them [my mom and step-dad], it's also a sin to read or know anything about other religious beliefs, because to them, reading it means that you believe in it, and that there couldn't possibly be any benefit gained from increasing your knowledge of them.


Also, I forgot to mention that my pastor is from a non-denominational church.

[beau99]

According to them [my mom and step-dad], it's also a sin to read or know anything about other religious beliefs, because to them, reading it means that you believe in it, and that there couldn't possibly be any benefit gained from increasing your knowledge of them.

Good grief. Saying that kinda thing would turn me off BIG TIME.

[Eric]

Yeah...they even have a problem with me reading the works of Confucius and Lao Tzu.

[Slater]

Boy, wait til he gets to college and has to take an Intro to Philosophy class.

Breakfast: Hellfire
Lunch: Brimstone
Dinner: Apocalypse with a side of parsley.

Oh well... Some people might have the right idea of what's right and wrong, but lose sight of the fact that they're being annoying, rude, or just harmful in general. While I think you should listen to your parents, I think that they've gone a bit off their nuts here...

[Eric]

I should be able to find a more permanent place to stay within the next few days, possibly even as early as tomorrow.

[Syreth]

It sounds like you're already pretty resolved as to what you are going to do. But remember... some things are worth fighting for.

[Nate]

My two cents is simply this, and I'll step out.

We are indeed called to obey and submit to our parents

The verse says "Honor your father and mother."

It seems to me that some people think "honor" and "obey" are synonyms.

They are not.

I can honor someone without obeying them. I can obey someone without honoring them.

That is all.