Transvestism

[Sohma]

Sorry if that is spelled wrong. lol

OK, my mom just freaked a little (which is slightly understandable) because she goes "now, these aren't all guys right?" asking about a picture of the Versailles (the band). Two men were wearing dresses. Haha, welcome to Visual-kei my dears. Anyway, she was a little bit irritated (lol) and I now have a question:

Does the bible say anything about men wearing girl clothes? This could be controversial, so sorry if it starts anything. But it seems to me these guys are just putting on a show, looking and acting as girls. I REALLY don't think they are gay, because they talk about girls and they don't claim to be. And I don't want to offend anyone who doesn't believe homosexuality is wrong. But in the bible, what I take from it, it is wrong. Again, sorry to offend. But this is a Christian website, so I'm sure it isn't against the rules to post my opinions on the bible. From what I read in the rules it isn't. Now, I don't go for the making out, but come on, a lot of normal bands in America do that too. But seriously, that's just wrong. -_-'

Sorry if this is against the rules in any way.

I love these guys though, even though their morals are like waaaaay off and they really aren't good role models or anything. I like their music, and the way they look. But yeeaah.

-yawn- I'm ubar tired, so excuse anything that doesn't make sense, or any type-errors. D:

[Slater]

"A woman must not wear men's clothing, nor a man wear women's clothing, for the LORD your God detests anyone who does this."

Hmm...

Maybe it's time to put the poster away? I'm not familiar with their music, but if that's wholesome and you enjoy it, well... you should enjoy it.

I mean, everyone sins; few people who end up in the spotlight can hide that. That doesn't mean we can't admire them. If we weren't allowed to admire sinners, who else would we have to admire? Answer: obvious but limitted.

Everyone has their personal quirks and weird problems... "thorns in the flesh" some might say, things we can't shake...

I'm not sure where I'm going with this, but I don't think it's anything to freak out over. Ultimately, it boils down to how their choices in life affect yours... Do they help or harm you from God's perspective?

Hmm..

[termyt]

Cross dressing is prohibited in the Bible, but what exactly is cross dressing is purely cultural.

The scripture quoted by Slater above is Deuteronomy 22:5. Here's an interesting article from an actual Jewish Rabbi as to what it all means:http://www.beki.org/crossdress.html

My take on it is this: We live in a society where gender distinctions are very important (as far as I know, this is true for all human societies). We learn from a very young age to read clues - some subtle, some not so subtle - about a person that indicates gender. It's a very important distinction for us.

To that end, I believe the verse is directed at folks who are trying to mask their gender to be perceived as being of the opposite gender and not at folks dressing up for fun with no intent on fooling anyone in any way that matters. (Such as dressing as a woman to gain admittance to the lady's restroom or to join a women's club or to date men).

In short, I would take a common sense approach. Is the portrayal positive or negative? Is it meant to uplift or degrade? Is your relationship with God strengthened or weakened? Answering these questions will help you discover the correct path for you.

[ShiroiHikari]

Hmm...my take on it is similar to what termyt said. I don't think there's anything wrong with a dude wearing a skirt. It's when they start trying to actually be a woman that I think it crosses the line.

[ChristianKitsune]

My answer will be based off the following passage:

Phillipians 4:4-8

4Rejoice in the Lord always. I will say it again: Rejoice! 5Let your gentleness be evident to all. The Lord is near. 6Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God. 7And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.

8Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things. 9Whatever you have learned or received or heard from me, or seen in me—put it into practice. And the God of peace will be with you.

It's very hard to live our lives according to these verses, I mean look at all we are bombarded with everyday!


My personal view is this: If this is affecting your life with Christ, don't do it. Seriously. The things we watch, listen to, and participate in are SO fleeting, it's not even funny. This band of yours may break up any time, but God is eternal, and your relationship with Him is what should be important.

My advice: Go to God about this issue, ask him what HE wants!

Last year a very good friend of mine who had been listening to these very creepy bands suddenly stopped. I was happy because the music she was listening to WAS affecting her life, she was angrier and more tense when she listened to them...

One day she finally went to God and was liek "Why can't I hear you?"

God answered her "Why aren't you listening? You listen to your music all the time, but you won't listen to me.."

After that, she threw away all her swag, (she had ton of merchandise from these bands) she broke her CDs and refreshed herself.

I'm not saying this is your situation... but seriously, is it affecting your life? Your walk with christ?

Why do you like this band SO much? if the morals are way off? (you don't have to answer this publically if you choose not to) What good will come out of it? What coudl happen that will put a damper on your walk with Christ?

Sorry if I offended anyone... I know it's hard to ask oneself these questions.

[Sohma]

Oh wow. *-*

I personally don't see these things as effecting my relationship with God. But I think everything you guys said made complete sense, and I know now why my mom got so upset. I think that I am not going to compleatly stop listening to these guys music, as long as it is clean (I always check to make sure the music isn't too depressing or sexual). But I do think that I need to take myself away from it a little bit. I don't want this to keep my prayer time and my relationship with God from growing, and I know that it is possible for this to happen from experiences from friends and what you guys have just said. Luckily, I have been keeping God ahead of them and I have tried not to get too wrapped up in it, but I think that I could do better. It's crazy the things you grow up not knowing, and now I'm excited to know this. XD

In reply to Kitsune-chan, I like the costumes (*dies* they are just so pretty! lol), and the music. I stay away from the actual yaoi and the horrible songs. And the guys are so cute (as long as they aren't too feminine)! But like I said before, I think I need to pull myself away a little, as to not start to put these guys before my family and God. And to not disrespect God in any way.

I don't think that I am sinning by listening to the clean music and still enjoying watching them, but I'm going to be more critical of what I am watching and listening to.

Thank you guys so much! I'm going to continue reading over what you guys said (and the bible), and bring this to the Lord and see what He wants me to do and everything. Luckily I'm not dissapointed, and I am just excited about bettering my life for the Lord! Woohoo! =D

I really thought this was a stupid question, but I guess if something is bothering me, there is always a reason right? =D

Aritagou~

[minakichan]

Girls wearing pants would have been considered crossdressing many years ago, but today it's OK. Guys in dresses might be completely normal in the future, but in the present, I'd say we call it immoral.

And while the J-rock scene really creeps me out, I uh, have a pretty bad penchant for crossdressing manga (as anony-chan knows full well and for which she takes full efforts to chastise me). The difference, I think, is that I am fully aware of it. It's sort of like being into yaoi-- most Christian fujoshi see no problem with it because they don't think it's wrong; they interpret the Bible differently or cite some kind of translation error or say that it doesn't apply anymore or something. However, there are some Christian fujoshi who essentially admit, "Yes, it's wrong, but it's my fetish and I like it."

I know my obsession is wrong and that I should quit, but I don't feel like it because I'm a terrible person. I don't ask God to to cleanse me or whatever; it's my personal selfishness. I guess that if you want to continue being into Versailles, you have two options-- either to convince yourself there is no problem and be freed of any guilt, or to be honest, admit there is a problem, and stick with it anyway, understanding that by doing so, you "ARE A BAD PERSON JUST LIKE THIS MINAKICHAN CHICK."

Now, I say all this, but I want to emphasize that I'm not saying that you and I are any different from anyone else. Tons of Christians, particularly those who aren't, say, Amish, are into violence, sexual immorality, and other sinful behavior, and if any of us listen to secular music or watch PG (*GASP!*) movies, we're all in the same boat. I do believe that the fact that we use teh intarwebs means that everyone on this board is likely to fall into this category, to some extent. We're all either deceiving ourselves and saying it's OK, or we know it's immoral but we don't really care anymore. Anyone who tells you that you should change probably has the same problem. If I was a good person without this problem at all, I'd tell you to change, but I feel bad about doing that because I am a failure at life.

[Nate]

Sort of on topic, last night I dreamed I was wearing a cheerleader outfit. I don't know what this means. Just...kinda throwin' it out there.

[Sohma]

Nate, you know, there are just some things you need to keep to yourself. But you're right. This isn't one of those things. =|

And by the way, I don't listen to the Versailles, they are just way too creepy. I wanted to see about their lyrics last night and after reading them, I decided to stay away. But yeah, just saying. I try to keep to the more happy bands -- lol.

[Fish and Chips]

Sort of on topic, last night I dreamed I was wearing a cheerleader outfit. I don't know what this means. Just...kinda throwin' it out there.

My eyes.

My eyes.

[Tsukuyomi]

Sort of on topic, last night I dreamed I was wearing a cheerleader outfit. I don't know what this means. Just...kinda throwin' it out there.

Did Nate watch a cheerleader movie (or something with cheerleaders in it) last night ^__^

Kinda reminds me of my Hot Chick dream, but reversed o.o;

I agree with Shiroi. It's when they try taking on a role of a female. That's when it crosses the line O.O

Yes, it may be weird seeing men walking around in dresses or skirts, but does that really change who they are o.O? i mean, if Nate were to go prance around us all in a cheer leader's outfit, would that change who he is deep down inside?

I think not u_u

Don't ask where all of that came from.. xDD;

[Sohma]

Yes, it may be weird seeing men walking around in dresses or skirts, but does that really change who they are o.O? i mean, if Nate were to go prance around us all in a cheer leader's outfit, would that change who he is deep down inside?

I'm going to have to gouge my eyes out before this day is over.

But you do have a point. Sometimes they do act like girls, but I don't they are trying to be girls. They talk about girls (like normal guys) and stuff, so I don't know. =| It's pretty freaking weird.

[Raiden no Kishi]

Sort of on topic, last night I dreamed I was wearing a cheerleader outfit. I don't know what this means. Just...kinda throwin' it out there.

The goggles, sir.



It appears that they . . . how you say . . . do nothing.

Also, I hope never to hear "Nate" and "prance" in the same sentence again . . .

.rai//

[Sohma]

Also, I hope never to hear "Nate" and "prance" in the same sentence again . . .

You've already screwed that one up, dear.

[Debitt]

From what little I understand of the visual kei scene, the costumes aren't about being women, but more about the fashion and the aesthetics.

Personally I see nothing wrong with men in dresses for the sake of the fashion because I feel what defines feminine and masculine attire is prone to be mutable across time and culture, and what is really important is considering the motives behind the choices.

[Tsukuyomi]

I love your avatar, Debs <3

Hee hee, sorry you guys ^_^;

Lol, I was going to post something, but having the vision of Sohma gouging out her eyes at the thought of Nate prancing around in a cheerleader's outfit just cracks me up XDDD

Anyway, it is all about the show/fashion/fad/what they're about.. etc ^^

(hope that made sense)

[RidleyofZebes]

Sort of on topic, last night I dreamed I was wearing a cheerleader outfit. I don't know what this means. Just...kinda throwin' it out there.

That's just... um... *Gouges out eyes*



By the way, I'm surprised that no one has brought up Kilts yet. Aren't kilts basically guys skirts? That's not considered cross dressing; In fact, it's quite masculine.

In the same way that women can wear pants, guys can also wear skirts, right?

[LadyRushia]

I was about to mention kilts. Again, if it's purely for show, I don't see how it could really be a problem, but if they actually wanted to act like and be women then it would be different.

[Nate]

Now the kilt was only for day to day wear. In battle, we donned a full-length ballgown covered in sequins. The idea was to blind your opponent with luxury.

[Aileen Kailum]

Well. There's something I can never unsee.

[beau99]

Now the kilt was only for day to day wear. In battle, we donned a full-length ballgown covered in sequins. The idea was to blind your opponent with luxury.

You win the internet.

[Hana Ryuuzaki]

Now the kilt was only for day to day wear. In battle, we donned a full-length ballgown covered in sequins. The idea was to blind your opponent with luxury.

[font="Palatino Linotype"]X^X

I do believe I'm dead now.

You have killed me with your vastly superior mental imagery.

X_X[/font]

[Raiden no Kishi]

I really don't see what kilts' significance are to a thread about cross-dressing. Kilts are mens' garments, ergo to wear one isn't anything like cross-dressing. And if I had a sporran, I'd wear mine in public more often.

.rai//

[Tsukuyomi]

Well. There's something I can never unsee.

[AsianBlossom]

I can't believe all these people here are dying or want to gouge their eyes out because of Nate's dream and blinding peoples with fashion...I'm chuckling up a storm, here.

...

So, wait...where does all this leave the movie Mulan? She wasn't dressing like that for a laugh.

[Slater]

Mmm... I don't think that Disney is a good place to look to for moral guidance...

But deception is sometimes virtuous, like the spies in Jericho or the left-handed messenger in Judges who killed the king.

[Sohma]

Now for something much more serious. 8|

If a girl where to wear a kilt, would that be wrong? I think they're kind of cute. If I were to put one over a pair of blue-jeans, would that be even worse? I mean, they look like skirts. But considering they are "masculin" I just don't know anymore. DDD: But I don't like wearing skirts in the first place, so I doubt I would buy a man-skirt before buying- I- I mean, a kilt . . . 8-O . . . I apoligize to all present Scottishmen.

[Nate]

I can't believe all these people here are dying or want to gouge their eyes out because of Nate's dream and blinding peoples with fashion...

You'd believe it if you knew what I looked like. XP

[AsianBlossom]

Mmm... I don't think that Disney is a good place to look to for moral guidance...

Oh...good point. XD

I never looked to them for moral guidance in the first place, though.

You'd believe it if you knew what I looked like. XP

Well, maybe you have a point. But for now...XD

[Kanerou]

I would actually like to know exactly what God's position on crossdressing is. I've also raised the question about women in pants. Where is the line to be drawn? I believe that if you are one gender, you should act it (not try to be the other gender), but what about clothing? Does wearing a skirt constitute trying to be female? If that's bad, then aren't tomboys sinning, too? What about makeup? I've seen a male Christian band, whom I understand to be on fire for God, that wears makeup. Is that wrong? I don't want to be over either line in what I accept as OK.

Sort of on topic, last night I dreamed I was wearing a cheerleader outfit. I don't know what this means. Just...kinda throwin' it out there.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-ZP9JHWpLY

You didn't watch this by any chance, did you?