I don't believe this!

[minakichan]

Oh please. If you think Beyblade is mindless crap that must be kept away from children lest it instill them with bad taste, they shouldn't be watching anything on television at all. I'm fairly certain that I could argue almost any kids anime series as crap, even the ones I liked, and Beyblade is so not an exception. At least no one has DIED imitating Beyblade (as opposed to Pokemon and Naruto).

I am not a Beyblade fan, and I think I only saw a few episodes as a kid; however, this whole argument is ridiculous. Everything sucks to certain degrees, and Beyblade does NOT take the suckiness cake.

(ShiroiHikari, you provide Sailor Moon as a counterexample. A very large percentage of the population would disagree with you on whether is has any "quality." I would too, and I LIKED Sailor Moon.)

[Raiden no Kishi]

[quote="minakichan (post: 1216573)"]Oh please. If you think Beyblade is mindless crap that must be kept away from children lest it instill them with bad taste, they shouldn't be watching anything on television at all. I'm fairly certain that I could argue almost any kids anime series as crap, even the ones I liked, and Beyblade is so not an exception. At least no one has DIED imitating Beyblade (as opposed to Pokemon and Naruto).

I am not a Beyblade fan, and I think I only saw a few episodes as a kid]

I don't believe those of us who criticize Beyblade are saying it's the worst thing on television; rather, at least in my case, it provides (being a show designed to sell toys) an example of what not to do. I believe you're overreacting a bit here.

.rai//

[Fish and Chips]

All I know about Beyblade is that I saw a commercial back in 2000. Spinning tops.

I changed the channel.

[Nate]

it provides (being a show designed to sell toys) an example of what not to do.

So then you're also opposed to Transformers, Masters of the Universe, G.I. Joe, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, Batman: The Animated Series, Gargoyles, Care Bears, and the Mario and Sonic cartoons?

That must be a sad world to live in, as most of those cartoons were some of the greatest cartoons of our age, despite being shows designed to sell toys.

[Shao Feng-Li]

The Care Bears were one of the greatest cartoons of our age?

[Nate]

Hence the qualifier "most" (as opposed to "all").

[ShiroiHikari]

Dude, Nate. I hope you're being sarcastic. XD;; Well, I suppose Batman TAS and Gargoyles were good, but the other shows?

[Nate]

I will adamantly defend Masters of the Universe, Sonic SatAM (not the Adventures of Sonic though, that one was terrible), and the original Super Mario Bros. cartoon (SMB3 and SMW were pretty terrible) to the death. *O*/

[minakichan]

In Japan, the anime-related licensed toy market is easily 10 times the size of the actual anime market. The entire Gundam franchise was hanging by a thread when the original series first came out, but it only got its chance because of Gunpla, which also arose almost by chance. Without models, the franchise would never have survived and we certainly would not have our 9000th Gundam spinoff today. Again, whether you actually like Gundam or not is irrelevant, but it's a prime example of how toys and mass marketing drives the development of anime. (And Gundam is arguably not a kids' show.)

[Raiden no Kishi]

So then you're also opposed to Transformers, Masters of the Universe, G.I. Joe, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, Batman: The Animated Series, Gargoyles, Care Bears, and the Mario and Sonic cartoons?

That must be a sad world to live in, as most of those cartoons were some of the greatest cartoons of our age, despite being shows designed to sell toys.

So I'll tell you that the reason to create an animated series should be primarily to tell a story, NOT to sell toys. It's a question of priorities, Nate. Fortunately, in the case of the good titles among those series, I would say that there were staff among them that sought to tell good stories. However, I believe they would have been better served by the primary goal being to tell a good story. I give you, for example, Samurai Jack. Great stuff, even if I feel they could have gone for an older audience. Great story - didn't sell that many toys. Frankly, I think it's the best thing Cartoon Network itself has ever produced.

And . . . Care Bears? Srsly. CARE BEARS. Care freaking Bears. Fail.

.rai//

[~darkelfgirl~]

Man, I loved Samurai Jack. And Care Bears (well, that one movie with that one kid named Darkheart. It was so dramatic). I'm sure you would have enjoyed that movie if you saw it .

[minakichan]

So I'll tell you that the reason to create an animated series should be primarily to tell a story, NOT to sell toys. It's a question of priorities, Nate.

In an ideal world, yes, but with just the minimal sales of DVDs and television broadcast ads and such, most animation studios are barely successful. Even Tezuka Osamu's studio went broke, for crying out loud. There's a difference in stating what should be and what is.

[Raiden no Kishi]

In an ideal world, yes, but with just the minimal sales of DVDs and television broadcast ads and such, most animation studios are barely successful. Even Tezuka Osamu's studio went broke, for crying out loud. There's a difference in stating what should be and what is.

I think you're misunderstanding me here. I don't mean "don't sell merchandise". I mean "make a good story first and merchandising can come from that instead of the other way around." Good stories will sell merchandise - Star Wars, anyone?

.rai//

[Shao Feng-Li]

I think you're misunderstanding me here. I don't mean "don't sell merchandise". I mean "make a good story first and merchandising can come from that instead of the other way around." Good stories will sell merchandise - Star Wars, anyone?

.rai//

YES.

And Samurai Jack was freaking awesome.

[ADXC]

OFF TOPIC-On a side note about Samurai Jack, in case anyone wants to watch it again CN is viewing in the 10:30 Toonami slot for a little while(Not sure how long though.). Just throwing that out there. I too enjoyed SJ when it came out, and I still like it.

Sorry for going off topic.

[Momo-P]

I think you're misunderstanding me here. I don't mean "don't sell merchandise". I mean "make a good story first and merchandising can come from that instead of the other way around." Good stories will sell merchandise - Star Wars, anyone?

I agree, but...then what?

If someone makes a toy and wants to advertise it, they aren't allowed to make it a cartoon? What if it actually does have a plot?

Beyblade may not be the best show ever, but some of the later storylines were pretty good (a kid being a cyborg and test tube babies have nothing to do with beyblades, but they were cool ideas). The same goes for Pokemon, the games came first, but the show definitely doesn't suck. The current DP series is actually shocking everyone in the fandom right now--some good twists and ideas are actually coming into play.

I understand what you're saying, but it's really stupid to say only a story can spawn merchandise. Transformers is an excellent example of toys spawning an excellent story. Had the toys never existed to begin with, it just never would've happened. They only went to Marvel with the idea because they found awesome character designs.

[Raiden no Kishi]

I agree, but...then what?

If someone makes a toy and wants to advertise it, they aren't allowed to make it a cartoon? What if it actually does have a plot?

Beyblade may not be the best show ever, but some of the later storylines were pretty good (a kid being a cyborg and test tube babies have nothing to do with beyblades, but they were cool ideas). The same goes for Pokemon, the games came first, but the show definitely doesn't suck. The current DP series is actually shocking everyone in the fandom right now--some good twists and ideas are actually coming into play.

I understand what you're saying, but it's really stupid to say only a story can spawn merchandise. Transformers is an excellent example of toys spawning an excellent story. Had the toys never existed to begin with, it just never would've happened. They only went to Marvel with the idea because they found awesome character designs.

Did I say anything about "allow"? I think not. I believe, however, that the OBJECTIVE should be to tell the story. Fictional TV series are STORIES, therefore the focus should be on the stories. Commercials are for selling things.

As to Pokemon - you may like it, but I've found Pokemon to be pretty basic as far as a series goes. I did enjoy Team Rocket, however. And if they're actually writing something interesting, good on them. However, there's probably a reason it's "shocking the fandom".

Also, I don't appreciate being called stupid, and I NEVER said it was only possible for the story to spawn merchandise. I said that I believed that was how it SHOULD be. As to Transformers, the writers didn't need the toys for character designs. If that's all they got from the toys (which is pretty much all there was to get), then all of the characterizations, storylines, etc. came from them. The storytellers. It was the storytellers that drove its excellence if it is excellent (I wouldn't know).

My point in its entirety is this: Your motivation for creating a story should not be to sell toys. You should be primarily concerned with telling a good story. If your focus is on selling toys, write great commercials and design great packaging and the like - focus on your advertising. If you're going to tell a story, focus on telling the story. I don't really understand why you're attacking me here.

As far as Beyblade goes, I would cite this as a prime example of the objective to sell toys being a serious imposition on the storytellers. I mean, you're supposed to write a show about TOY SPINNING TOPS. TOPS, ladies and gentlemen. What made Yu-Gi-Oh! so ridiculous is that the whole world was obsessed with a children's card game. Mind you, before this happened, Yu-Gi-Oh! wasn't about the card game at all, and was quite good - also notably darker. With Pokemon, at least, there was a believable reason for the world to be fixated on the Pokemon themselves. These are powerful creatures here - how would humanity NOT take great interest in them? Tops and trading cards? Not so much. With Transformers, you've got characters that function just like human characters, but they turn into cars and robotic animals and other such things depending on the series. There was room for storytellers to work with them, and the transformation made for an interesting action dynamic. With Mario and Sonic, you've got games with characters and storylines that give storytellers a start, but enough latitude to create. However, when your line of reasoning is, "We want to sell these toys. Let's create a TV show!" you get things like Beyblade and Yu-Gi-Oh!, where the premise is ridiculous and hurts the storytellers. Again, you're trying to write a reasonably believable world where everyone from children to rulers of nations are obsessed with tops and trading cards, respectively.

I'm really trying not to be misunderstood here.

.rai//

[Fish and Chips]

Hey people.

Let's argue heatedly about animated merchandising campaigns. Like, for pages and pages.

Yeah, that sounds like a good use of our time.

[Nate]

With Pokemon, at least, there was a believable reason for the world to be fixated on the Pokemon themselves. These are powerful creatures here - how would humanity NOT take great interest in them?

Again, you're trying to write a reasonably believable world where everyone from children to rulers of nations are obsessed with tops and trading cards, respectively.

You're contradicting yourself. o.O

You say that everyone is interested in Pokemon and it makes sense because they're powerful. But then you say it doesn't make sense for everyone to be obsessed with cards because they're so powerful?

In Yugioh, the cards actually do have power. So why is it okay for one series to have people obsessed with powerful creatures, but not okay for another series to have people obsessed with powerful creatures? If humanity is naturally drawn to items of extreme power, then why WOULDN'T they be involved in cards that have untold power?

By the way, one of the Yugioh story arcs involved a person using the cards to steal people's souls to resurrect a 10,000 year old monster that destroyed Atlantis. This of course wasn't in the English dub, but it doesn't change the fact that that's what happened. It proves the cards are powerful enough for national leaders to show interest in them at least.

The tops thing, is a bit different, but the tops DO have mystical creatures sealed inside of them. But it's not like the show is about them going and fighting bad guys with their tops. It's a show about a tournament where people play this game. Seriously, what's so bad about that? What's the difference between watching a show that's basically about a game, and watching a football game? Or the National Poker Championships? In fact, I would argue these are BETTER than football or poker because we see the characters outside of the tournaments, get to know them as people, and so on. There is more to it than just the game.

Which again, I'm not saying anyone has to like it. I don't like football or poker tournaments and I'm likely to not like Beyblade at all. But I think your arguments are stemming from a lack of understanding of the world in which Yugioh and Beyblade take place.

[Fish and Chips]

Seriously, what's so bad about that? What's the difference between watching a show that's basically about a game, and watching a football game? Or the National Poker Championships?

RON.

[Raiden no Kishi]

You're contradicting yourself. o.O

You say that everyone is interested in Pokemon and it makes sense because they're powerful. But then you say it doesn't make sense for everyone to be obsessed with cards because they're so powerful?

In Yugioh, the cards actually do have power. So why is it okay for one series to have people obsessed with powerful creatures, but not okay for another series to have people obsessed with powerful creatures? If humanity is naturally drawn to items of extreme power, then why WOULDN'T they be involved in cards that have untold power?

By the way, one of the Yugioh story arcs involved a person using the cards to steal people's souls to resurrect a 10,000 year old monster that destroyed Atlantis. This of course wasn't in the English dub, but it doesn't change the fact that that's what happened. It proves the cards are powerful enough for national leaders to show interest in them at least.

The tops thing, is a bit different, but the tops DO have mystical creatures sealed inside of them. But it's not like the show is about them going and fighting bad guys with their tops. It's a show about a tournament where people play this game. Seriously, what's so bad about that? What's the difference between watching a show that's basically about a game, and watching a football game? Or the National Poker Championships? In fact, I would argue these are BETTER than football or poker because we see the characters outside of the tournaments, get to know them as people, and so on. There is more to it than just the game.

Which again, I'm not saying anyone has to like it. I don't like football or poker tournaments and I'm likely to not like Beyblade at all. But I think your arguments are stemming from a lack of understanding of the world in which Yugioh and Beyblade take place.

Okay, I can somewhat see your point with Yu-Gi-Oh!, as my brief interest in the series was during the Pegasus/Duel Island arc where the cards were pretty much just cards. However, I don't think it's illogical to say that a show about a trading card game where the show is focused around playing the card game is rather contrived. I mean, why would there be some sort of ancient powers in trading cards? Trading cards, Nate. Even more so with Beyblade. They're tops. You make them spin and they bash into each other until one stops. For this to become some sort of worldwide phenomenon is dubious. For there to be mythical creatures sealed into toy tops is incredibly dubious. It stretches suspension of disbelief beyond recognition. I'll even admit that I used to watch (and even enjoy) Medabots, which was also supremely contrived. Who would freely distribute robots with such weaponry among middle-school children? It was a ridiculous premise for a show, and horribly contrived. I have no idea why I wasted my time watching it. The art was even pretty weak.

The difference with football and poker is that it's actually happening. The appeal is completely different. And of course, many people are interested in the people's lives behind the games. However, their privacy is an issue there, because they're real people. However, I think the major appeal of real-life sports is that they are actually happening. There are people on the other side of the camera actually running plays and tackling each other. There are real people . . . playing poker. Trying to play mind games and play the odds. There's an element of uncertainty.

What I'm trying to say is that often when the merchandising comes before the story, you end up with these very contrived premises - ancient powers in a kids' trading card game, mythical creatures sealed in toy tops, powerful, heavily-armed robots available to young children, etc. What I'm saying is to let the storytellers have control. Let them tell a better story. Let them drive your merchandising. It will be better overall. If you put the storytelling first, it doesn't harm your merchandising at all. You can merch just about anything, and we do. You are also then not constricting your storytellers, allowing them to do what they're supposed to do. When your merch forces your storytellers to work with contrived premises, it's like asking them to juggle with their feet. Can they do it? Yes, and they should be applauded for managing it despite the handicap. However, why not let them juggle with their hands? That's my point. When you put merchandising first, it can easily handicap your storytellers, leading to poor storytelling. In fact, I will go so far as to say despite what the writers of Yu-Gi-Oh!, Beyblade, and Medabots (to name a few) have achieved, the ultimate quality of those shows is hamstrung by the premises of the stories themselves. In fact, I'll make a concession and say that Pokemon does this to some extent. I still believe that Pokemon had a more believable premise than the other three, however.

I will repeat my point, and hopefully I will be understood this time. Putting merchandising before storytelling often leads to contrived premises that handicap your storytellers. Therefore, it is an inferior approach. Putting storytelling first allows for a better story without harming merchandising possibilities. That's my point. I will admit that I haven't been clear in relating it to these certain series, but I don't see anything hard to accept in my main premise. Perhaps you could address that premise. Maybe then we can end this, because it needs to reach an end.

.rai//

[ShiroiHikari]

By the way, when I mentioned Sailor Moon earlier, my point was that it's way better than a lot of American kids' shows, not that it's a masterwork of animation. I think my statement was taken the wrong way.

[~darkelfgirl~]

OFF TOPIC-On a side note about Samurai Jack, in case anyone wants to watch it again CN is viewing in the 10:30 Toonami slot for a little while(Not sure how long though.). Just throwing that out there. I too enjoyed SJ when it came out, and I still like it.

Sorry for going off topic.

That's fine. The 'on-topic' stuff is freaking me out. Imagine if I introduced this topic to my school's anime club. Apocalypse.

My word, look at these epic responses. Guys, calm down. It's just anime. I'm sure our lives don't completely revolve around the workings of anime, do they?

Let's just sing 'Kumbaya' and move along before someone loses an eye.

[Fish and Chips]

For this to become some sort of worldwide phenomenon is dubious. For there to be mythical creatures sealed into toy tops is incredibly dubious. It stretches suspension of disbelief beyond recognition.

So I heard you like Anime.

[minakichan]

Right, so this is turning into a "my taste in children's anime is better than your taste in children's anime." (ONLY ADULTS CAN PLAY CHILDREN'S CARD GAMES!) rai, your elitism towards Beyblade viewers is akin to a "normal person's" elitism towards you for even having an interest in children's anime. This is not an attack on you-- I mean, I love Detective Conan, which is a kids' show-- but again... complaining about a kids' show being ridiculous/dubious/...childish is like whining that MTV shows have no depth. I think that's the point.

If you were to say "kids' shows have no depth; adults should watch fare better suited to them," I would have no complaints with your statement, as much as I would have to disagree.

[~darkelfgirl~]

Hey, everyone! Check this thread out BEFORE you post:

http://christiananime.net/showthread.php?t=47809

I don't know about you, but I'm feeling like a lot of negativity is radiating around the place. You may be a Superman/Superwoman, but please consider the feelings and perspectives of others before you make a comment.

I'm literally begging you.

--The UN

[Raiden no Kishi]

[quote="minakichan (post: 1216855)"]Right, so this is turning into a "my taste in children's anime is better than your taste in children's anime." (ONLY ADULTS CAN PLAY CHILDREN'S CARD GAMES!) rai, your elitism towards Beyblade viewers is akin to a "normal person's" elitism towards you for even having an interest in children's anime. This is not an attack on you-- I mean, I love Detective Conan, which is a kids' show-- but again... complaining about a kids' show being ridiculous/dubious/...childish is like whining that MTV shows have no depth. I think that's the point.

If you were to say "kids' shows have no depth]

Wait, I'm elitist now? For saying, "Hey, we can do better than this without sacrificing anything"? I'm not bashing people who watch Beyblade for crying out loud! I thought I already apologized for coming across that way and hoped that people who do watch it enjoy it! I'm criticizing the merchandising approach that puts the merchandising before the story and handicaps the storytellers. I'm saying, "Let the storytellers do their job without having to deal with ridiculous premises." Why is that so evil and elitist and wrong?

Kids' shows can be good entertainment. One step is allowing the storytellers to tell their stories unfettered by the burden of shoehorning product placement into the premise of the show. My point is that that step should be taken. Let me state this again in case anyone missed it the first time, because apparently they did.

[SIZE="3"]I do not intend to in any way "bash" anyone who watches any of the shows I mention, or imply that they are in the wrong for watching/enjoying said series. I hope you're having all sorts of fun watching them. I really do.[/SIZE]

I am, however, saying that the merchandise portion of the property has handicapped the storytellers by requiring that they work with dubious premises. I am further saying that the storytellers can be freed from said dubious premises without handicapping the marketability of the property, with the possibility of increasing that marketability.

Is this clear enough yet, or do I need to go on?

.rai//

Fish: So I heard you like being facetious - also, Mudkips. ^_~ You know as well as I do that not all anime are like that.

[Cognitive Gear]

Children's stories do not have to be devoid of purpose, quality or substance. It seem that a few people here seem to think that children's show's don't need the aforementioned things. I honestly don't think this is true. Children's minds are constantly and quickly developing, and would benefit from entertainment with substance.

Children are the future. Therefore, it stands to reason that someone should stand up for what is in their best interest, as they themselves lack both the judgement and the ability to do so.

OT: You know, I think that debate is severely under-rated these days. The debate taking place here has largely been civil, and quite an interesting read. Let it be noted that I'm just offering up a different opinion to those that seem to be off-put by the current conversation.

[~darkelfgirl~]

OT: You know, I think that debate is severely under-rated these days. The debate taking place here has largely been civil, and quite an interesting read. Let it be noted that I'm just offering up a different opinion to those that seem to be off-put by the current conversation.

Ok. I agree that they've been under-rated these days, but these under-rated debates are strangely heated for no necessary reason.

Maybe it's my geographic location or the type of English I use, but I'm sensing negative. Not that I'm upset by anything going on here, I just think the extra tension isn't necessary. I just think way too much energy is being put into this topic.

This shouldn't be a big deal. Then again, I'm amongst anime freaks .

[Raiden no Kishi]

Also remember that this is an anime forum. We're going to go somewhat in-depth about anime. Because of the demographic, anime is a big deal here. I will, however, agree that drama should be avoided.

Yeah, you're among anime freaks. It could be a ton worse. A TON worse. Go check out some other anime forums without the restraint we show here. On second thought, don't. You wouldn't want to.

.rai//