Pull out of English class at age 8, 'cause you ain't gonna need it!

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Pull out of English class at age 8, 'cause you ain't gonna need it!

Postby Maledicte » Wed Apr 09, 2008 10:47 pm

So says the writer of this article.

I was gagging so much I couldn't finish reading it. Oh, the humanity...

This sort of tripe makes my abdomen nauseous. :drool:
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Postby Warrior4Christ » Thu Apr 10, 2008 2:05 am

The principle, I agree with. If you can write what you want in one page instead of five, then write it in one.

The application, not so. Those were not difficult words. Should we only know one single word for each meaning? I don't think it's a bad thing at all to expand one's vocabulary above the bare minimum. The way one does this is through using different words in their writing at school. Sometimes it is quite appropriate to use the other (non-short) word. Good luck reading lawyer-speak (eg., terms and conditions, which appear on many things in life).
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Postby Technomancer » Thu Apr 10, 2008 4:08 am

Her point isn't entirely bad, she isn't actually advocating cutting English classes. Professional communications should be written for clarity and with an eye towards brevity. And while I agree with most of her points, I must disagree with others (or at least her examples). In particular, while there are many words in the English language that mean close to the same thing, there are shades of meaning that she seems to have overlooked.

What she said has been said before; not only by writers of basic style manuals, but also most eloquently by George Orwell.
http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/orwell46.htm
The scientific method," Thomas Henry Huxley once wrote, "is nothing but the normal working of the human mind." That is to say, when the mind is working; that is to say further, when it is engaged in corrrecting its mistakes. Taking this point of view, we may conclude that science is not physics, biology, or chemistry—is not even a "subject"—but a moral imperative drawn from a larger narrative whose purpose is to give perspective, balance, and humility to learning.

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Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge

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Postby termyt » Thu Apr 10, 2008 6:16 am

Brevity is always good. We have a rich vocabulary so that we can express ideas in a clear and concise manner. Throwing out words does not add to understanding, it takes away from it.

To use one of her examples, there's a difference between abdomen and belly. I for one would rather hear "I have a tear in my abdomen" than "I hurt my belly." I may have wasted 8 letters with the first sentence, but at least it conveys a much more clear picture of the problem.

I'm all for fighting wordiness, but we do not achieve clarity by forcing few words to hold multiple meanings.
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Postby Danderson » Thu Apr 10, 2008 9:02 am

termyt (post: 1215890) wrote:I'm all for fighting wordiness, but we do not achieve clarity by forcing few words to hold multiple meanings.

Here here......

What if someone takes "her" advice and wants to someday write an epic novel? Though it might be easier to understand the story, I would say it'd lose the epic quality if certain words were not used to expand and delight the readers imagination.

Makes u wonder, with these sort of ideals, does anyone ever truly "enjoy" reading classic literature, or even understand it or do they read it just to pass a class or course?
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Postby Radical Dreamer » Thu Apr 10, 2008 9:26 am

Eh, it mostly depends on the audience. If you're writing a scholarly paper, you won't be using "belly" instead of "abdomen" (seriously? Seriously?). Additionally, using more colorful language can make something more interesting to read; instead of reading the same words over and over, it gives a nice sense of variety. I don't disagree with everything she's saying--concise writing is a good thing to learn--but it shouldn't be applied everywhere, and she doesn't leave much room for imagery in writing, either.
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Postby Etoh*the*Greato » Thu Apr 10, 2008 9:30 am

I am totally reminded of this though.
"I do not feel obliged to believe that that same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forego their use." - Galileo Galilei
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Postby Technomancer » Thu Apr 10, 2008 9:53 am

Danderson (post: 1215923) wrote:Here here......

What if someone takes "her" advice and wants to someday write an epic novel? Though it might be easier to understand the story, I would say it'd lose the epic quality if certain words were not used to expand and delight the readers imagination.

Makes u wonder, with these sort of ideals, does anyone ever truly "enjoy" reading classic literature, or even understand it or do they read it just to pass a class or course?


I thought it was fairly clear that the article was only addressing professional communication and not literary writing.
The scientific method," Thomas Henry Huxley once wrote, "is nothing but the normal working of the human mind." That is to say, when the mind is working; that is to say further, when it is engaged in corrrecting its mistakes. Taking this point of view, we may conclude that science is not physics, biology, or chemistry—is not even a "subject"—but a moral imperative drawn from a larger narrative whose purpose is to give perspective, balance, and humility to learning.

Neil Postman
(The End of Education)

Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge

Isaac Aasimov
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Postby Doubleshadow » Thu Apr 10, 2008 10:06 am

Although I didn't read the article, I'm going to suppose the author is of the common place mind set that one goes to school only to acquire sufficient knowledge to produce an efficient worker and nothing more. This is a damaging idea that prevents the expansion of intellect and makes one more susceptible to misunderstanding, poor judgment, and easy manipulation. If one only knows just enough to perform communications in a specific job with a limited vocabulary how is one expected to communicate with people unfamiliar with their terminology? Also, it is well-known that vocabulary (in fact, language in general), limits ones ability to think because a person can only think in terms of words they know and their assigned meanings, restricting their reasoning. This is why people are encouraged to think in concepts rather than words to learn and apply a new language.
If you can only express yourself in certain ways and limit your thinking by a lack of knowledge and exposure to new ideas, you'll certainly make a good, predictable, mindless cog in the machine that never asks questions or causes trouble; that a company or individual can simply use, trick, cheat and disregard with impunity. However, I seriously doubt it is a good idea to limit oneself this way. A democratic society will not survive without an educated populace to determine when freedoms are being attacked or abused. Furthermore, the original educational system, that deliberately included music and art, two valuable ways of learning expression and appreciation of different forms of communication, was designed to help students understand God better. The many different ways of thinking were meant to help students find ways to see and understand their Creator and commune with Him.
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Postby ChristianKitsune » Thu Apr 10, 2008 11:08 am

umm...

But I like not sounding like a total idiot? Seriously, I think that a good vocabulary denotes that you actually know what your talking about.

If I were to say "Mommy, my tummy hurts." You guys would think I was like... REALLY young.

But ifI were to say "Mom, my stomach hurts, and it feels like there's a rock and I'm about to get sick.." then I sound a little more intelligent, and not so childish. Yes, it's more to say, but That's seriously how I talk. :/

I'm long-winded... DEAL with it XD

Also, since I have experience with journalism, sometimes the longer the story, the more you get paid.

Of course, you have to make the story really interesting or the reader will quit halfway through. Which is why the beginning of the paper is the most important. :3
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Postby Maledicte » Thu Apr 10, 2008 1:40 pm

Technomancer (post: 1215937) wrote:I thought it was fairly clear that the article was only addressing professional communication and not literary writing.


However, the phrases and words she uses in her examples aren't exactly what one would use in the workplace. "She saw his Speedo"? Also, this is MSN. People are going to be reading this, see the phrase "adult learning," and probably apply it, and not in the way it was intended, which was only mentioned briefly at the bottom of the page.

One can be consise without overusing simplistic terms.
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Postby LadyRushia » Thu Apr 10, 2008 3:42 pm

I'm sorry, but if someone reading any sort of paper doesn't know what "assist" means, then that person shouldn't be in any sort of professional setting. When she said latin words, I thought she was going to list words that aren't commonly used.

I agree with the cliches part; cliches need to die a horrible death and I want to laugh and cry a little every time I here people use them because they think they'll sound smart or cool. Now, writing something using ONLY cliches actually sounds slightly awesome, XD.

Some of these are actually good tips because why say "due to the fact that" when "because" gives the same effect? On the other hand, I'd rather not abuse two letter words.

"He began to understand" and "He understood" convey two different effects. If he just understood, he could've understood yesterday or last year, but if he began to understand then it's clearer when it took place.

No, "could" and "would" can't be cut. "He would swim in the pool" is different from "He swam in the pool." Don't sacrifice clarity for brevity.

I agree with her on redundancies; they're harder to catch these days.

It's funny how she discourages little words when she said earlier to use "so" and "to."

I think she's generally talking about business writing, which is much different from creative writing and literature since it really does need to be brief, but some of those suggestions almost downplay the intelligence of the average worker. Again, I'm pretty sure most people know what "assist" means.
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Postby Kaligraphic » Thu Apr 10, 2008 4:47 pm

Canine - use dog
I'm sure that dentists will sound so much better talking about dog teeth.

Presume - use guess
Formal logic will never be the same.

began to understand -> understood
Wow, such a quick transition from the first inklings of comprehension - er, understanding - to a full and complete understanding. Removing the idea of degree sure does make the résumés of the marginally qualified sound better. After all, the word margin comes from Latin.


While the general principles may be applicable to a degree, the abysmal application of those principles renders the article laughable. Of course, perhaps I'm not the target audience, as I'm something of a fan of the Latin. Or maybe it's just that I like being precise. That said, if anyone working for me wrote the way this article suggests, that employee's first "appreciation award" would be an English textbook.
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