Ok, this is a dumb question, but...

[Momo-P]

I really don't know what to say to these people.

Lately a LARGE amount of people I know have been saying you don't need to know Christ to get into heaven. That since buddhism, hinduism, muslim, etc. tell laws about how to be holy as well, that if they follow the laws perfectly, they can go to heaven without knowing Christ.

...Obviously this is insane and totally untrue.

I've pulled up several Bible verses for them (explaining how we're sinful, why we can't get into heaven and how Christ is the only way we can get there), but they just snuff them out. The one guy has a girlfriend who's hindu (plus a grandfather who was jewish) so I have a feeling he's not budging on the grounds that "my loved ones can't go to hell!"

Plus a lot of them keep pulling the "God loves everyone" card. One guy even told me my image of God was "petty" if He truely would send non-believers to hell. He also brought up Matthew 25:31-46 as "proof" that people who do good works go to heaven.

Now I think I totally understand what Matthew is talking about here, but can someone tell me? Does it REALLY support his words? Because when I read that passage I see it as refering to Christians (since when we accept Christ we do become kinder and holier in our behavior), but I just...need something to say.

Never in my life have I been around so many people who believe this before. The one girl also pulled up something from...I don't know what it is, a Catholic thing I believe (it starts with a C) and used it to try and support He lets anyone go to heaven. Now I'm not insulting Catholics here, I may not agree with them on everything, but even I don't think they all believe this, do they? Cuz I'm pretty sure my cousin doesn't and she's been Catholic for years.

So sorry for the dumb question guys, but this is just a really scary spot. ._. There's like 6 of them altogether and I really don't feel comfortable with people like that telling others "it's ok not to believe".

[Chibiringo]

Pshaw, that's not a dumb question! ^_~

But, I do agree with you one the whole good works thing. I would almost say that guy is taking Mathe 25:31-46 out of context. Because people will see us by our good works such as trying not to sin and asking God to forgive us and being kind and helping others. That's what that verse means.

I totally agree with you Momo, I would be kind of frustraited and almost angry to some extent. Just gotta pray for them and keep trying to explain to them that we need Christ to get to heaven.

[sharien chan]

You should read the book "how good is good enough" by Andy Stanely. It's super quick to read, and it explains all this. How that you need Jesus to get into heaven, and whatnot.
As for the Catholic thing, I've only been Christian for 6 months, and all sects of Christianity have their issues, there isn't one form that is perfect. It depends on the people in charge of that church, and what angle they're coming from. And while we don't get to decide who goes to heaven and God obviously can decide if He wants to let someone in. But thats completely up to Him, and not something we should really concern ourselves with. So personally that isn't something I would preach, just because you can't be sure. Jesus is the only sure way to get to Heaven.
As for the other religions, while they are great for codes of behavior and how to act, they are still lacking a personal savior. Christianity is the only religion with a savior like Jesus.

And while God does love everyone, it also hurts Him when we turn away from Him. He wants to be in a relationship with us, but if we refuse Him then He respects our decision. And it says that He is just. So while it hurts Him to have to condemn us, He still does it because He respects our decisions.

[Kanerou]

I agree; it's not dumb. At least you're asking.

John 3:16 is something to think about. God does love everyone. Without Christ, mankind is going to hell. God had nothing to do with Adam's decision in the garden. In fact, He loves everyone so much that He made a way for them to not have to go to hell. People go about that from the totally wrong angle and see God as the one who's condeming them, when really, they're doing it to themselves.

I've also heard the argument that if there had been any other way, Jesus would not have had to go to the cross. Like the passages in the Gospels: "If there is any other way, let this cup pass from me".

[Momo-P]

You should read the book "how good is good enough" by Andy Stanely. It's super quick to read, and it explains all this. How that you need Jesus to get into heaven, and whatnot.

Well I suppose I could, but it's not really me who has the problem. Like I said, I totally believe the Bible, but either they ignore scripture altogether (the one outright admitted he was acknowledging what I presented, but willingly was going to ignore it) or they twist it to fit their views. It's like that old arguement when you tell people homosexuality is wrong and then they say "but God loves everyone, He wouldn't send people to hell!" It's a case of "If God sends "good" people to hell He's evil" in their eyes. One girl also seemed to twist Jesus's sacrifice as if to say...since Jesus died for everyone, then He died for everyone. In other words, even if you deny or ignore Him, it still applies to you because it was for the world.

One member mentioned how we aren't suppose to have other gods besides Jesus, but they seem to ignore that as well, it's like a hopeless case. I really wish there was one passage of scripture I could think of that would totally shatter anything, but sadly unless there's a piece that says "People that accept Jesus go to heaven, those who don't go to hell" they aren't going to listen. Heck, they probably wouldn't listen to that either to be honest. <<;

[termyt]

You are right out there on the front lines, aren’t you, Momo-P? God bless you and strengthen you.

That’s quite the quandary you have there, isn’t?

First off, their definition of Love is nonsensical. They imply God is petty if He sends one He claims to love to hell? So, it is petty to punish those who unrepentantly wrong you? Apply this logic to anything. Is it petty to send murderers to prison? Is it petty to smack the hand of a child reaching for a hot stove? Who displays this kind of “Love?” No one – it’s not love being displayed, it’s apathy. It’s a complete and utter disregard for justice and is nothing more than anarchy and chaos.

I feel sorry for your friends if they feel punishment is a form of hatred. That’s just awful. What kind of person would I have grown up into if my parents had not loved me enough to scold and punish me when I was wrong?

Of course Hell is a pretty extreme and permanent form of punishment, but, let me pose another question. If you truly loved someone so much that you wanted to be with them always, but they wanted absolutely no part of you, what would you do? Would you force them to stay, knowing they hated you and would be miserable? Or would you let them go because their desires mean more to you than your own? That what hell is, folks: permanent and complete separation from all things God. God loves you so much that He will let you go if you want no part of Him, but know this: life without God really, really sucks – with out God there are none of the blessing of God – no love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, patience, gentleness , or self control. (AKA Fruits of the Spirit – Gal 5:22-23)

[quote-Momo-P] Now I think I totally understand what Matthew is talking about here, but can someone tell me? Does it (ed: Matt 25:31-46) REALLY support his words?[/quote]

It does if you ignore the other 31,066 verses in the Bible. But let me ask you, can you understand Tolsty’s War and Peace if you only read the 954th paragraph? Neither can you understand the message of the Bible by reading only its 954th chapter.

Let me answer the question another way. They are correct. If you are truly good, you can make it to heaven without acknowledging Christ’s sacrifice.

The real question is, “Who is good?”
[Quote=Jesus (in Matthew 19:17)]Why do you ask me about what is good? There is only one who is good. [/quote]

for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God

(Please read all of chapter 3 before your discussion with these people.)

Do any of your friends claim to be blameless? Completely without error or sin? If any does, he is a fool. (See 1 John chapters 1 and 2) For the others, they should know this:

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life, through Christ Jesus our Lord.

through Christ Jesus our Lord

God’s grace is extended to all and communion with Him is possible, but only through Jesus.

Now, go back to Matthew chapter 19 and read starting with verse 16. It’s the story of a man who by any contemporary scale was “good,” yet he leaves Jesus sadly and with out salvation. Why? He was not good enough and he refused to follow Christ’s instructions. You can not be good enough to ignore God’s message and be saved.

(NOTE: If they bring up scripture to use against you, the best recourse is to use scripture to refute them. You’ve indicated they use scripture against you but refuse to listen to any scripture you present. At this point, it’s no longer a discussion. They are but blind fools with no desire to do anything but argue – speaking to them is like spitting into the wind.)

[Momo-P]

Thanks for the advice termyt, I think I'll take a break for the rest of the day (just relax and get a hold of myself) and then try and explain this all to them in a better way. Before I was heavily annoyed and trying to keep my cool, so perhaps I need to word things a different way and see if they understand it then.

But otherwise, ya, some of them just seem to be totally "I refuse to listen to you because my way sounds better" and it's pointless to even put up with it. If they don't get it after this, I think the only thing I will be able to do is pray...

[Mithrandir]

I've been in many a conversation where the other side claims with a straight face that I am simply not open minded enough, but refuses to listen to any response I give to them. The response I have to try hard not to make in that case tends to be along the lines of, "Well, I guess I'm not open minded enough to carry on a conversation with someone who won't listen to my thoughts on the matter."

I guess the point is: if someone won't listen to you, only your actions will ever show them Christ's love.

[Kaligraphic]

I'd say to agree with them. If you can follow the law perfectly, you can go to heaven. Of course, if you want to act righteously, and not sinfully, you have to go all the way. You know, if your clothes use mixed fibers, you're sinning. If you eat a cheeseburger, you're sinning. If you carry more money in your left pocket than your right, you're sinning. Oh, and the promises of the law only apply to you if you're Jewish, because it was an agreement specifically with the Hebrew people, so you wouldn't get any benefit from living perfectly righteously in this life. Just pull out the law, and point out a couple of the more obscure and nowadays overlooked ordinances. There's enough to convict every single person on the face of the Earth. Nobody but Christ even has the ability to obey the law.

Oh, and it's not a matter of scale. Remember James 2:10 - "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is become guilty of all." It's not just the "big sins". It's not just stuff like murder, theft, lies, homosexuality, bestiality, the ones everyone has heard preached. That one day you wear a shirt without checking the material it's made of will make you just as guilty as Adolf Hitler. So, you ask, do you still want to earn your way to heaven, knowing that one slipup - just one - can send you crashing down to the grave? Are you confident, you ask, that you can match the righteousness of God by your own ability? That God will see your heart and acknowledge you as being the same as himself? Can you beat God at his own game?

You know what sin is? It's falling short. It's making a mistake. It is imperfection. (seriously, look it up in Strongs.) If you're perfect, unlike the whole of the human race beside you, you may have a shot at fulfilling the law. But if you ever make mistake, if you've ever fallen short of the mark, then you can't get to heaven on your own merit. It's that stringent.

Me, though, I like to cheat. God sent his son Jesus to become a human, so that, when he died on that cross, God could see all humanity as dying on that cross. When Jesus was resurrected, that counts for us, too. Now, when God looks at us, he sees our righteousness through the blood of Jesus, which means that we get to use Jesus' righteousness instead of our own. That means that because Jesus did all the hard work, we can be free from all that law and sin and death. We don't have to worry about it. I like that my righteousness is in Christ, because it means that I don't have to maintain it by my own effort. It means that I can always go to God in confidence that I'll be accepted and received, without having to wonder if I'm good enough. I'm not, but that's irrelevant. Christ is, and that's the righteousness I'm using.

You can try to earn your way in by the works of the law. You will fail. The law was designed to beat you. It was designed to be harder than you can deal with. It's supposed to be impossible, to show you that you can't do it. "Because by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified in his sight; for through the law cometh the knowledge of sin." (Romans 3:20) Nothing you do can make you more righteous, and nothing you do can make you less righteous. No amount of good works can cancel out a single error, and no amount of sinful works can overcome the power of Jesus' blood.

[sharien chan]

About the book I told you about, from what I recall it has specific passages of scripture to support itself, which is why I recommended it, and it also gives arguments and reasons why. Which you could then use to tell those people.