How do you know?

[~darkelfgirl~]

To Ghost: That makes sense ^^. That "Lily" book seems interesting.

To Termyt: Yeh, His Will be done.

To Shao: Well, it doesn't contradict scripture...

What I've been wondering is that some say that you should use your gifts and abilities for God, but I guess that's kind of shallow if He didn't call you to do it. Then there's that parable that the merchant (I think it was a merchant) gave coins to his servants; some used them wisely, which brought profit, and one just hid his away. When the master returned, the other servants gave him the fruits of their labor, but the servant gave him the original coin (and the merchant got angry).
That's what's been confusing me. I don't want to keep my talents dormant and just wait around, and then, you know.

I don't want to cause a theological debate--that's just what's been bothering me.
Well, then what you guys mentioned makes sense, because He'll lead me to where He wants me to go anyway ^^...

[Raiden no Kishi]

[quote="~darkelfgirl~ (post: 1201256)"]What I've been wondering is that some say that you should use your gifts and abilities for God, but I guess that's kind of shallow if He didn't call you to do it. Then there's that parable that the merchant (I think it was a merchant) gave coins to his servants]

Perhaps the talents you have are part of God's leading? If God gave you talents, He would obviously want you to use them, so I'd go with that.

.rai//

[Shao Feng-Li]

So then it's cool

God wouldn't give a person talents if he wasn't meant to use them.

[GhostontheNet]

[quote="~darkelfgirl~ (post: 1201256)"]To Ghost: That makes sense ^^. That "Lily" book seems interesting

....

What I've been wondering is that some say that you should use your gifts and abilities for God, but I guess that's kind of shallow if He didn't call you to do it. Then there's that parable that the merchant (I think it was a merchant) gave coins to his servants]

Thank you. I took that quote from The Essential Kierkegaard edited by Howard V. Hong and Edna H. Hong, and the work I cited would probably do you a world of good in your present predicament. I understand all too well that waiting is a very painful and laborious spiritual discipline, especially if God withdrawls the sensory feeling of his presence in the interim, which makes me feel alone and abandoned. But believe me, there is nothing more dangerous in all the world than a man that thinks he is acting in the Name of God who was not sent by God. Therefore, patience and longsuffering is the best counsel. The truth of the matter is that the most powerful of tools for God's kingdom were already available to you from the moment you were saved, and those are the gifts of your humble prayers and devotions and your offering of your time and sustenance. With these you are already empowered to grow and mature into the woman he wants you to be and the grace to play a part in enabling those he has already given the vision to venture forth into the world to achieve these inspired dreams. And even in this interim, God might even place people in your life to whom you will reveal his love. And even when God reveals his vision of what you are to carry out in the world, you will still fall back on these core gifts.

So then, what about the parable of the talents (Matthew 25:14-30) and the parable of the coins (Luke 19:11-27), both of which were probably the same parable re-adapted and reused at various points in Christ's ministry? Its important to note that the very first part of the parable is that the master gave the servants the talents or the coins. The parable certainly does not involve the master not giving a servant any coins and then scolding them because they didn't make any money. In the context of the present discussion, we may rightly take the talents and the coins as symbolic of a vocation or task God has given us to carry out within the world. While at some point in the English language it was decided that "talents" would become a word for skills based on this parable to emphasize that skills come from God and should be used for God, this is not the original meaning of the parable and should not be projected onto it. What is most important about this parable is that the people involved are servants, whom are bound to carry out the will of their master. Although a servant that is given a task by his master is bound to carry out that task, a servant who is not given a task is bound to listen and learn from from his master and to await instructions. Therefore, the best thing you can do right now is to wait, listen, pray, and carry out the basic offerings of the faith in humble adoration.

[sharien chan]

Well for me, when i finally knew that i was supposed to go to Japan, it was cause God hit me over the head like a bajjillion times.

Rickshaw XDDDD

[termyt]

\

That's an interesting view on why Jonah sailed the other way...And so, it is there that the story ends.

Well, I wasn't really shooting for the entire Jonah story. It's a good one, I admit, and I encourage everyone to read and study it. Since I was speaking specifically of God's ability to use us for His glory even when we are not exactly where He wants us, I figured "unsure and afraid" was a good enough paraphrase for his reasons for not going. Thanks for filling us in on the rest, though.

I recall that I mentioned earlier that to a receptive heart the call of God is impossible to miss.

I do not entirely agree. The statement itself is fine in that if we are called to act as many of the prophets were, then His call would, indeed, be very hard to miss. Not all of us are called to such grandiose and spectacular missions as Jonah or Hosea or Moses. God spoke directly to the prophets through some pretty dramatic means. If He chooses to speak to you in such a manner, fantastic – follow it or risk being swallowed by a fish. (I actually know a couple of folks who have been “swallowed by a fish” so to speak. They give great testimony, much like Jonah.)

Most of us have only the Word He has spoken and the subtle nudges of the Holy Spirit. In that case, when we go to make a decision on what profession to dedicate the next chapter of our lives, it can be a tad stressful when you want to follow God’s calling for you, but you aren’t sure if the call is Computer Science, Botany, or Missionary to Botswana. So, my advice is to follow what most interests you. God’s plan for you probably isn’t so spectacular as Jeremiah, but you will find it in your daily life regardless of your profession.

[Gypsy]

It gets pretty easy to kind of hang back and wait for God to write His will for your life in the sky. Don't be afraid to move forward with plans just because you're not 100% sure it's what God wants you to do. He's big enough to put up roadblocks (sometimes speed bumps) if you're going in the wrong direction of His will. Just keep your prayer life open, and be willing for plans to change, and above all, make sure that you're willing to listen if He does nudge you in another direction. It's my belief that if you truly want God's calling for your life and you're actively looking for it, you won't go down the wrong path very far.

[GhostontheNet]

\Well, I wasn't really shooting for the entire Jonah story. It's a good one, I admit, and I encourage everyone to read and study it. Since I was speaking specifically of God's ability to use us for His glory even when we are not exactly where He wants us, I figured "unsure and afraid" was a good enough paraphrase for his reasons for not going. Thanks for filling us in on the rest, though.

Whenever I read Jonah and his explanation at the end that he was afraid to go because he "knew that you are a gracious God and merciful, slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love, and relenting from disaster", what he's really trying to say is that he had a feeling that God would save the city if he went, but he would rather see it destroyed. As such, I tend to think of his attitude as not-so much "unsure and afraid" as brash and callous.

I do not entirely agree. The statement itself is fine in that if we are called to act as many of the prophets were, then His call would, indeed, be very hard to miss. Not all of us are called to such grandiose and spectacular missions as Jonah or Hosea or Moses. God spoke directly to the prophets through some pretty dramatic means. If He chooses to speak to you in such a manner, fantastic –] When I mentioned that one's calling to a vocation would be impossible to miss, I was not saying that it would be through really flashy spiritual fireworks like a vision or theophany of God. Indeed, as a young contemplative mystic that has been through the Night of the Senses, I know that even the sweet feeling of God's presence that is felt through the senses (sort of the flashy spiritual fireworks on this inside) is not the most important thing, and that God may even sever us from this feeling for a period of time to lead us on to more significant things. Its really a lot like what Elijah discovered as he fled from Jezebel's efforts to kill him, while he awaited new direction from God:

And he said, "Go out and stand on the mount before the LORD." And behold, the LORD passed by, and a great and strong wind tore the mountains and broke in pieces the rocks before the LORD, but the LORD was not in the wind. And after the wind an earthquake, but the LORD was not in the earthquake. And after the earthquake a fire, but the LORD was not in the fire. And after the fire the sound of a low whisper. And when Elijah heard it, he wrapped his face in his cloak and went out and stood at the entrance of the cave. And behold, there came a voice to him and said, "What are you doing here, Elijah?"

It is important to note that after all of the startling manifestations of power that the Lord was not found within, the phrase here rendered as "a low whisper" is literally "a still small voice" or even "a silent small voice". If we should puzzle over how Elijah heard a divine voice of silence, it must be because it had a deep and profound resonance that cut through right through the filter of the senses and went straight into his soul. It is this voice I refer to as impossible to miss to those who remain open and perceptive to it.

[quote="termyt (post: 1201363)"]Most of us have only the Word He has spoken and the subtle nudges of the Holy Spirit. In that case, when we go to make a decision on what profession to dedicate the next chapter of our lives, it can be a tad stressful when you want to follow God’]

These nudges of the Holy Spirit may be subtle, but they have a profound resonance like a "still small voice". Its important to note here, that we're dealing with two different definitions of terms like "vocation" and "calling". The definition you are using is basically synonymous with a life-long occupation to earn a living. In this particular definition, I still haven't the foggiest clue of my own vocation to date. The definition I am using, however, is a task or duty assigned by God for one to carry out within the world. To date I have been assigned several of these kinds of vocations, all of which are extra-curricular. My calling to perform them was indeed impossible to miss, even if they were proceeded by a shadowy interim of unknowing that put together the pieces so I would understand the message when I recieved it. It is important to note in responding to both you and Gypsy that when I refer to the spiritual discipline of waiting, I think an important aspect of it is to learn to redeem the time in the interim by using it wisely even in the darkness of unknowing.

[Mave]

Eh.

The basic gist I got from Termyt's original post (and Gypsy's followup post) is that we need not fear making the human mistake of going off the wrong path He intended. He'll bring us back as long as we're willing to be led back.

Having something happened to me recently, I'd second that notion. I also believe that God makes good out of what Satan intends for bad/evil (including our mistakes/foolishness).

[GhostontheNet]

Eh.

The basic gist I got from Termyt's original post (and Gypsy's followup post) is that we need not fear making the human mistake of going off the wrong path He intended. He'll bring us back as long as we're willing to be led back.

Having something happened to me recently, I'd second that notion. I also believe that God makes good out of what Satan intends for bad/evil (including our mistakes/foolishness).

I noticed this particular aspect of both their posts and had almost no serious issue with it, so I didn't mention it in my own reply. After all, what kind of fan of Kierkegaard would be opposed to faithful risk-taking to boldly leap into the future? It is important to note however that these kinds of efforts fall into the category of "something I'm doing" rather than "something God told me to do", which is a nice and fine use of human autonomy so long as it does not stand in the way of what God would have you do (and this tends to cause roadblocks or events that destroy the old life to show up). Also, in the case of vocations or tasks given directly by God, this kind of approach is deeply akin to beating one's head on a door that God must open himself. My only other real objection to this kind of risk-taking as presented by Termyt is that he mentioned jobs within the Church, whereas I believe that these kinds of tasks should be reserved for those who have at least some inkling that God is calling them into fulfilling these roles.

[Mave]

Oro....

I speak in general terms. If it's a job pertaining to ministry, I would imagine that there will need to be community approval to help confirm the decision. Some things are not decided completely on your own, thus the need for fellowship and wise counselling.

Also, in the case of vocations or tasks given directly by God, this kind of approach is deeply akin to beating one's head on a door that God must open himself.

I'm sorry but I didn't quite understand what you mean by this.

For me, faithful risk-tasking isn't completely reckless in nature. It's not like I'm jumping into something without any research. While I'm doing "something," I'm also constantly reassessing my decision and staying alert to signs of confirmation or conviction.

Sorry, folks. I like things to be a little bit more simple.

[GhostontheNet]

I'm sorry but I didn't quite understand what you mean by this.

I was referring to the kind of vocation that is not some kind of self-initiated lifelong career, but rather the kind of vocation that is a task assigned to one directly by God to perform within the world, which may last anywhere from a few minutes to a lifetime in fulfilling the task. Since this latter type of vocation is directly initiated by God, treating it as if it was just another thing that one could self-initiate through the ordinary mode of using their free will proves to be as fruitless an exertion as running into a closed door repeatedly to get through it as if it were open. It would be far better to stand and wait courteously, and to knock in prayer at the front door so the Master of the house will let one in, in order that he may reveal his plans.

[termyt]

I noticed this particular aspect of both their posts and had almost no serious issue with it,...

"Almost no serious issue with it?" Is that an overly wordy and complicated way of saying you think my theology stinks? I have found that the use of too many words only serves to confuse people. One the one hand, you say you disagree with me and then you go into a very long and complicated speech that paints a point of view very similar to my own. I suppose if I read it a few more times, I’]As such, I tend to think of his attitude as not-so much "unsure and afraid" as brash and callous.[/QUOTE]That’s fine. It’s a valid point of view – in fact I have almost no serious issue with it. It would even be fun to discuss whether what I said actually disagrees with what you said, but alas, this thread’s purpose is not to discuss Jonah or the differences between vocations and callings, but how to discern how and if God calls us to do something.

The bit about the still small voice was wonderfully succinct and right on topic, though, and a very good point. It is indeed difficult to miss, but it can be difficult to disguish from other voices in your head.

Speaking of succinct and on-topic - the quote in Gypsy's signature is excellent.

"A ship in harbor is safe but that is not what ships are built for." - John A. Shedd

[~darkelfgirl~]

I see...

[GhostontheNet]

"Almost no serious issue with it?" Is that an overly wordy and complicated way of saying you think my theology stinks? I have found that the use of too many words only serves to confuse people. One the one hand, you say you disagree with me and then you go into a very long and complicated speech that paints a point of view very similar to my own. I suppose if I read it a few more times, I’]

How exactly did you get "I think your Theology stinks" out of that? I mention that I pretty much agree with you on those particular points, you see that I pretty much agree with you on those particular points, and somehow I still get interpreted as saying that you are a poor theologian. My only serious disagreement was that you mentioned jobs within the Church in the category of self-initiated vocations, where I tend to think one should have at least some sense that God is calling them into an area before getting involved in this fashion. I mentioned the different meanings of tasks, vocations, and callings because I noticed that we were having two entirely different conversations based on different understandings of the words in question, and therefore a bit of clarification was in order.

The bit about the still small voice was wonderfully succinct and right on topic, though, and a very good point. It is indeed difficult to miss, but it can be difficult to disguish from other voices in your head.

Sometimes, but then those really cool instances of being God-haunted show up.

[Tundrawolf]

Well for me, when i finally knew that i was supposed to go to Japan, it was cause God hit me over the head like a bajjillion times. I felt a strong pull towards japan, and the more i prayed about it, the more i felt a confirmation in my heart. You are more at peace with the idea, and when people suggest other things, they just dont... seem right. God also gave me a bunch of dreams and signs and stuff that that is where i'm supposed to go next.

So right now, i'm waiting on God's word for when he wants me to go.

When I was living at the wolf sanctuary, I would be cleaning pens or doing wolf duties, listening to my heavy metal music when suddenly I would see myself talking about God before lots of people. I would shoo the image out of my mind and say "I am going to stay here with these wolves forever! I am NOT going to do that!".

Welllllllllllllll. Fast forward 2.5 years and I now have such a strong desire to teach people about God that I am eagerly awaiting Gods perfect opportunity-which He has promised me.

This has come after the most traumatic and horrible things I have *ever* gone through. It has lasted a year, and I am still recovering. However, I am doing better now than I have ever been in my entire life. I am stronger, and I have more LOVE for Jesus Christ than I have EVER had before.

God has used this time in my life for His glory so much so that it blows me away. I remember thinking of the utter chaos in my mind over my circumstances, then God allowing me to "See" His mind-it's hard to explain. I saw that how my chaos was completely in His plans. It always WAS.

I see now how the devil is a LIAR, how the evil one can ensnare you so completely, yet Jesus is always there to pull you up. To pull you back TOWARDS Him, because He loves you so much.

I used to see these visions as a bother, I would never do that sort of thing, I just want to be with the wolves. However, they are becoming more frequent, and I am speaking-being led by the spirit and not of myself- some pretty neat things. Now, I am like "Let me at it!". Even now, almost dying in a motorcycle accident, having emotional trauma that used to paralyze me in terror-literally sapping every happy thought I have had for the past year-, being almost $100,000 in debt, having lost almost everything I have worked for, my credit, my home, I have never BEEN MORE BLESSED IN MY LIFE.

YES!!! I have more hope now than I have EVER HAD.

Someone once told me, you will know it is God because He won't let you forget what it is He wants you to do. Being in tune with your spirit is very important. Ask the Lord-He answers prayer-ask Him to know your spirit. He will guide you, and show you. He will make a way where THERE IS NO WAY. He will DO THE IMPOSSIBLE. HE LOVES YOU SO MUCH!!

A few weeks ago I was sleeping in a friends' home. You know how you wake up and scratch your head then go back to sleep-never *really* waking up, but still remembering it when you wake up to start your day? Well, I woke up to hear-with my ears-not my spirit "Do not be afraid". I heard it ABOVE me, but in the room.

You would think I'd jump up and freak out, but I went back to sleep (lol). When I woke up I had a knowing in my spirit that I had no reason to be afraid. If any of you guys hear anything I am saying, it is this: That God loves you more than you can know while still alive on this earth, and that the devil will use FEAR more than ANY OTHER emotion to paralyze you in the faith.

Do not be AFRAID of something you believe God is calling you to do. Pray on it. Listen to your spirit, it is Gods' phone line. I let fear of leaving the wolves and leaving Mishomi paralyze me into NOT doing the will of God and living a rebellious lifestyle. Finally, the devil used it to pull me into a horrible trap. Whatever the devil uses to harm you, God will use it to build you up, to pull you out, to show you HIS FAITHFULNESS!!!

Now, I know for a FACT that whatever Gods plan for me is (It is coming soon my friends!!) that it will not only involve wolves, but I will be happier in Gods' will than I EVER was rebelling against God. That's another trick the devil will use-again-fear-but he will tell you "You don't want to do that! You would have much more FUN over here doing THIS!", all the while making you further and further into a snare-into absolutely misery. Bull hockey! You will *NEVER* be happier than when you are doing Gods' will.

Think of it this way. If it is Gods' will for you to be a sewer cleaner in Tibet, you will be HAPPIER, more CONTENT, living in MORE DIVINE PEACE than you would, say, being the king of the entire planet. Seek His face-God is a rewarder of those who DILIGENTLY SEEK His face!!

3 things to remember for determining what is Gods' will:

1.Prayer. God Answers prayer. Pray about it.

2.Listen to your spirit. The Bible says "My sheep know my voice". If you don't know His voice, pray! It will be revealed to you my friend!! He will NEVER Leave you or FORSAKE YOU, not EVER!!

3.Confirmation with other believers. I actually started to doubt the words "Do not be afraid". I was talking to another believer about it, and she said "Well, all good things come from the Lord"-she had no idea I was struggling with it. The devil would NEVER tell me not to be afraid. Fear is the #1 tool of Satan! Don't listen to it! If God is for you, who can be against you? NOBODY, including the destroyer himself!!

I would like to add one more: God won't leave you alone about it. He didn't see you as incompetent when He first told you His will. Satan will tell you everything you want to hear to run from it, but God will always find you. You cannot EVER escape his Love. He has a perfect plan for you! If you are constantly being reminded about it-God will provide the way when you are willing to go for it.

And you WILL be rewarded. Pray about it. Pray when you feel the most afraid. Believe you receive an answer when you pray! God LOVES faith. He LOVES YOU. If you totally turn from God and run away, He will pursue you. Don't end up in a snare created by the devil. Remember, Satan has a plan for you, too-and it is to do you GREAT HARM. Satan will NEVER tell you "Hey buddy, do you want to be tortured and driven to suicide? Well come on in here!".

I am praying for clarity for everyone wondering about their calling. I love you guys!

P.S. I am sorry for the length of my response. I felt compelled to write it, if not for the author then for someone else. I hope it brings hope to someone who needs it. There is ALWAYS HOPE!

[Tundrawolf]

I was referring to the kind of vocation that is not some kind of self-initiated lifelong career, but rather the kind of vocation that is a task assigned to one directly by God to perform within the world, which may last anywhere from a few minutes to a lifetime in fulfilling the task. Since this latter type of vocation is directly initiated by God, treating it as if it was just another thing that one could self-initiate through the ordinary mode of using their free will proves to be as fruitless an exertion as running into a closed door repeatedly to get through it as if it were open. It would be far better to stand and wait courteously, and to knock in prayer at the front door so the Master of the house will let one in, in order that he may reveal his plans.

There is IMMENSE wisdom in this. However, I believe the doors opened (And closed) to any particular calling will never be the same. We are the body of Christ-we are a variety of people requiring a variety of methods God will use to reach us, help us, and build each individual (And consequently the Church) up.

It is VERY wise to say that when you are trying to fulfill your calling under your own power, it will be like trying to tear a brick wall down with a spork.

I believe for some people, fulfilling their calling may be as easy as walking out of their front door and bumping into the right person walking down the sidewalk.

With one clarification.

God PROMISES trials and hardships. While you may have found the initial calling to be so easy (It's like God provided the opening! wow! ) there may (will) be times in between when you are FORCED to rely on God. It is these times that God will use to strengthen you. That is why it is so important to seek His will, ask for the right doors to be opened.

It has been my experience that the Lord will do things in your life that would have never have been previously conceived by you. That is to say, when you look back on it, you will say to yourself "Wow, I NEVER would have seen THAT coming". But it happened. And now you have a taste of divine favor. You will find that every little thing in your life suddenly makes sense-that you were called all along to do this, or that.

And remember that "All things work out for good for those who LOVE the Lord, and are CALLED according to His purpose"!!!

Don't lose hope! Don't lose faith! GOD LOVES YOU IMMENSELY SO!!

[termyt]

How exactly did you get "I think your Theology stinks" out of that?

It was the placement of "almost" and "no" next to each other right before "serious problem" that did it for me.

It says that you have at least one serious problem with my statement. If I have almost no apples, then I must have at least one apple or the statement would read “]serious[/I] problems with what you said. A few disagreements, but I would classify them as rather minor.

[GhostontheNet]

It was the placement of "almost" and "no" next to each other right before "serious problem" that did it for me.

It says that you have at least one serious problem with my statement. If I have almost no apples, then I must have at least one apple or the statement would read “]serious[/I] problems with what you said. A few disagreements, but I would classify them as rather minor.

My apologies for the confusion. Its the funny thing about theology and philosophy that the "one bad apple" rule does not apply. Even with the greatest authors that have been a major influence on me, I find that I have grave issues with their thinking on this or that point. This usually owes to the fact that my background in these areas allows me to trace implications concealed from most readers, or to spot philosophical or theological problems even the writer themselves may not have noticed. Some thinkers are so heavenly-minded they are of little earthly good, while others are so earthly-minded they are of little heavenly good. Even so, each of these may yield interesting insights into the sphere they have focused on so single-mindedly. In the case of our present conversation, I think I already mentioned that my most serious issue was that it had seemed to me that you had placed jobs within the Church in the category of jobs that one self-initiates.