"Real IDs of 2008" predicted in Revelations

[Righteousss]

Ive heard from friends and have also looked information up that this year of the month of May(dont know what day of that month) that every U.S. citizen(I think over the age 16?) will be issued new IDs that will be not only your prime identification but will also be your driver's liscence,reveal your bank account, social security number, will replace your passport, have your medical affairs, be used in your transactions for buying/selling, and what bothers me mostly is that the smart chip will be embedded within it...tracking your every movement.

The other thing of my concern is that the ID coming soon is believed to have been predicted in the bible in the book revelations.
The third angel warns about something similar to the Real ID in Rev. 14:9-11.

and also "Not to take his MARK (the ID and the chip within) in their right hand or forehead ( Rev. 13: 16 )

all this info can simply be looked up on Google. Just type in Real IDs.

[ShiroiHikari]

I don't know if I believe this...

[Righteousss]

I was told about it today and just found out.I too am not so sure.

[ChristianKitsune]

Well considering that this won't be inplanted into our hands or foreheads.. XD I am sure it's nothing to worry about.

Not to mention... there really isn't anything EVIL about this...

they thought the same thing about the social security numbers and such...

[Roy Mustang]

Well, people thought that social security number was the start of the end of the world.

And the Real ID is the name of the act. Real ID act of 2005.

Which is and quoted from Wikipedia

The REAL ID Act of 2005 requires people entering federal buildings, boarding airplanes or opening bank accounts to present identification that has met certain security and authentification standards. The Act is Division B of an act of the United States Congress titled Emergency Supplemental Appropriations Act for Defense, the Global War on Terror, and Tsunami Relief, 2005. It implements the following:

* Establishing national standards for state-issued driver's licenses and non-driver's identification cards;
* Waiving laws that interfere with construction of physical barriers at the borders;
* Updating and tightening the laws on application for asylum and deportation of aliens for terrorist activity;
* Introducing rules covering "delivery bonds" (rather like bail bonds but for aliens who have been released pending hearings);
* Funding some reports and pilot projects related to border security; and
* Changing visa limits for temporary workers, nurses, and Australian citizens.

More about it in this link.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/REAL_ID_Act#Minimum_nationwide_standards_for_state_driver.27s_licenses_or_ID_cards.2C_employment.2C_and_banking

what bothers me mostly is that the smart chip will be embedded within it...tracking your every movement.

Uh, satellites can already do that. That's nothing new really.

[font="Book Antiqua"][color="Red"]Col. Roy Mustang
[/color][/font]

[Warrior 4 Jesus]

Good grief! Not this crap again! While it's good to be watchful, it's also good not to go all paranoid too. Ever thought the 'mark' of the beast would be spiritual rather than physical? How the crap is a microchip going to prove/demonstrate your allegiance with Satan (and disfavour with Christ).
A load of bollocks if you ask me.

[Roy Mustang]

To me, this Real ID is dog tags for us non military/government people. I really wouldn't worry about this at all.

[color="Red"][font="Book Antiqua"]Col. Roy Mustang [/font][/color]

[beau99]

Not every person will be required to have it.

[Technomancer]

Uh, satellites can already do that. That's nothing new really.

Not without additional infrastructure, or larger battery packs. The sort of RFID or smart cards that people talk about cannot reach satellites owing to the onboard power constraints, to say nothing of the degree of interference from other transmitters as well as physical obstructions.

The other thing of my concern is that the ID coming soon is believed to have been predicted in the bible in the book revelations.

This is actually a common misperception. While several possibilities for "The Mark of the Beast" have been proposed (UPC, SS, RFID, etc) there is still much discussion among international standards bodies over which approach should be taken. Currently a joint commitee representing Hell, ISO and IEEE is being convened, but is not expected to submit a recommendation until 2012 at the earliest. Scuttlebut says that the most contentious issue is muticompatibility so that any souls made hellbound under pre-existing standards will be sent to their proper destination and not re-routed to Limbo to spend eternity with disused Betamax machines and OS/2 Warp.

[Roy Mustang]

Not without additional infrastructure, or larger battery packs. The sort of RFID or smart cards that people talk about cannot reach satellites owing to the onboard power constraints, to say nothing of the degree of interference from other transmitters as well as physical obstructions.

I mean government satellites that watch a person from the sky. I'm not talking about smart cards or whatever.

[color="Red"][font="Book Antiqua"]Col. Roy Mustang[/font][/color]

[Shao Feng-Li]

Ehh...

Just have to see what happens.

[Dante]

I mean government satellites that watch a person from the sky. I'm not talking about smart cards or whatever.

They can't really do that either, I've heard rumors of satelites able to resolve down to the width of "seeing" the license plate on your car, but I'm not sure they can get that powerful... furthermore, "seeing" a license plate and reading the numbers are two different things... and if all they can see is a guy... or is it a girl? walking around in a black shirt... that doesn't say all that much. Tracking via satelite via this method would be very ineeficient, and as far as the card, if you felt threatened by something evil... you could always just set the card on fire and lug it out your car window ! But I mean, just for normal things its just another version of a drivers liscense as far as I can tell.

EDIT: If its that powerful... Where's Osama?

The idea is likely a result of national concerns over illigal immigration from Mexico, and gives agents an excuse to arrest people of that nationality for not having it (essentially giving a valid reason for their racial profiling). But by the time the idea is implemented their population would just veto it anyways, so in the end, it won't likely happen.

I furthermore doubt that they could force every american to have a bank, credit and medical card info stored in this thing... I mean, many Americans lack health insurance, so why have medical info stored in a card when we lack the insurance to pay for medical care? Furthermore, this alone proves that they couldn't track your location via satelite... if they can do that, I can hack their info and grab your medical information through the same means most likely and that would violate law, you'd be carrying around a big encrypted sign about all of your identity and medical issues, I don't think they'd risk it.

Furthermore, how could they force all americans to have bank and credit card info from the age of 16? You can't own a credit card till your 18, and further more, after the way we've been treated by the credit card companies I think most Americans would feel a bit unhappy about having an identity theft risk opened in their name by their government without their permission. And who would the government choose to place and support in your wallet, how would the card support updates in a rapidly changing world.

All in all, it seems like an idea released by politicians to try and bring attention to themselves because "they" are doing something about an issue the public is concerned about in many cases. Overall though, the plan seems inconcievable and hardly worth our worries in its present state.

-Pascal

EDIT: But if you feel so concerned about satellite tracking... just stick the thing in a small wire cage at will imagine your favorite government spook pulling his hair out as he watches you vanish into and out of reality as the card goes into and out of the faraday cage . Of course... the same happens in malls or any other location with metal beams... just think of cell phones, and they have FAR more power then the satelites we're talking about!

[SailorDove]

I have very strong views on these matters, but instead of pontificating my own opinions, I'll only post a couple research links for those who are willing to search for the truth instead of a quick opinion.

Links on the Technical & Moral perspective.

Privacy.org FAQ on ID cards & Systems
http://www.privacy.org/pi/activities/idcard/idcard_faq.html

"THE SPYCHIPS THREAT: Why Christians Should Resist RFID and Electronic Surveillance"
http://www.spychips.com/index.html

[Warrior 4 Jesus]

Sailor Dove, please don't tell me you believe this crap!

[EricTheFred]

The only effect the Real ID act of 2005 has on the majority of people in this country is that their driver's license has to conform to a national standard. At this time, the RFID chip is not part of the law, and although the DHS has the power to add it to the standard, it has not done so, yet. If it does, it will be the second case of this being done: the State Department already includes an RFID chip in US Passports.

RFID chips, by the way, are in many people's pockets already. The Mobil 'Speedpass' and similar products are RFID. If you ever waved one of these at a fuel pump, then you have some idea what the range is for them, which is only a couple feet. No satellite or passing black helicopter is going to be able to pick it up.

Also, several states are already opposing Real ID, even without the RFID chip included. There are many concerns, including the high cost, the potential for interlinked databases required by the law to be accessed by identity thieves, and the simple fact that a large number of voters don't like it. The delays in implementing it are slowly pushing the deadline back. Right now, it isn't scheduled to go into effect until 2011.

ABOUT SATELLITES TRACKING INDIVIDUAL PEOPLE:
Could be done, if you plant a fairly powerful transmitter on them. Like a satellite phone. Actually, it would be a whole lot cheaper, and much more effective, to hack into the cell phone network. Lots more people carry the required transponder (their cell) and the telecommunication industry has already provided them with an infrastructure. If the government ever has a mind to do this, cell phones (and blackberries, and such) are what they would choose, not satellites.

The idea of satellites looking down and watching people has been around for ages. It would be virtually impossible to pull off, but the persistent rumors about them make me suspect disinformation. I'm pretty sure that the CIA and others help spread these ideas to keep the bad guys (and the rest of us) guessing. If the sky's the limit in what people think they can do, then nobody has any idea where the real limit is, right?

Anyhow, one technology in use right now on our borders is probably the source of the rumors (this is a personal opinion, not anything learned from anywhere else.) The various UAVs used for border patrols, and by our military and CIA in the Middle East, take pictures that look like they are from passing satellites, except because they don't go through the atmosphere's limit (which distorts telescopic images badly), you can get much, much higher resolution. I'm betting part of the disinformation is to let people 'accidentally' witness 'satellite' images of incredible quality that are actually being taken from a Predator. It's just the sort of kooky thing the CIA would dream up.

[Gabriel 9.0]

I highly doubt it is what is mentioned in Revelation. Given that some prophecies before that haven't been full-filled yet. Like the rise of the worldy counterfeit church( led by Satan and his little puppet the anti Christ), the rise of the Remnant Church( Christ's last true and sincere followers during that event. Then afterwards the mark of the Beast will be placed on everybody that is not true and is against God. After that, they will attempt to destroy The remnant church, however they are saved by Christ's Second Coming and heroic invasion ( if you want to call it that), then are caught up to Heaven with the formerly sleeping saints, live a 1000 year period with Jesus. Afterwards return to Earth to raise and judge the wicked then Armageddon, the final battle of Earth. Christ, his angels and the redeemed triumph and this begins eternal peace and happiness forever. Sorry if this disturbs anybody.

As for the ID thing, I think that has something to do with Intelligence/ Special Forces surveillance to protect the US and its allies from any enemy.

[blkmage]

I personally think that the Mark will be fairly obvious. I mean, it's not like you're going to take it and suddenly find out WHOOPS, IT TURNS OUT YOU HAVE THE MARK OF THE BEAST, OH WELL, THAT'S TOO BAD.

Anyhow, I do object to these sorts of things on privacy and civil rights grounds.

[Nate]

*sigh*

The Mark of the Beast probably isn't a physical mark. It shows allegiance to Satan and rejection of God. Would having a microchip implanted in your hand or forehead show you don't believe in God? No, it wouldn't. For the love of God, people, He gave you a brain. USE IT SOMETIME.

The only, ONLY way it could be the Mark of the Beast is if you were required to say, "I completely and totally reject belief in God and the message of the Bible" in order to get one. Given that the First Amendment prohibits any law being passed abridging the free exercise of religion, this will not happen. Thus, any microchip, ID thing, whatever CANNOT be the Mark of the Beast. Revelation makes it VERY CLEAR that no Christian will have the mark.

So yes, like BlkMage said, it's not going to be a situation where a Christian gets one of these things and has made a mistake. Anyone who firmly believes the message of Christ, and devotes their life to Him, and tries to live their life in accordance with His will, is not going to be kicked out of Heaven for having a freaking chip in their head.

And Christians wonder why everyone makes fun of what we believe.

[Stephen]

They said the same thing about credit cards. Of course. The devil is going to get you based on where you get your cookies. >.<

[Nate]

Everyone knows only Satan-worshippers eat oatmeal raisin.

[Gabriel 9.0]

Lol:lol: , that's funny Nate and Shark.

[Ingemar]

You do not have to adhere to a certain interpretation of Revelation to find any piece of legislation that requires cataloging the human race utterly abhorrent. I can imagine more than a few atheists who believe strongly in human rights and personal freedom who would object to a national ID/mandatory tracking system.

[SailorDove]

Needed a little time to think though the biblical part of your question.

The other thing of my concern is that the ID coming soon is believed to have been predicted in the bible in the book revelations.
The third angel warns about something similar to the Real ID in Rev. 14:9-11.

and also "Not to take his MARK (the ID and the chip within) in their right hand or forehead ( Rev. 13: 16 )

"Something similar" is the key phrase. I don't know if it will be a chip or how it will be done. But the idea and practice of numbering people by the Government really ticks God off. Read 1 Chronicles 21 1-9.

In contrast, God sent Jesus to serve us. A prince serving his people. I find that rather interesting that God wishes people to follow him not because of his power or might, but because he loves them and wishes for them to love & respect him as well.

And I find something else about how God treats us very fascinating. There is none as powerful, mighty, just and holy as God. Yet, he gives us the freedom to choose. But he respects our choices. He is the Truth, the way and the Light, and accepts the fact that some reject him because of what he says.

I'm not perfect, and I do try to treat others who I disagree with respect. We must accept, as God does, we will not always be respected in return.

[Mithrandir]

...Read 1 Chronicles...

I think I'd go for the account in 2nd Samuel 24 if I wanted people to see a little more about the background, and I've never seen any evidence that God was mad a WHAT David did. God was mad at WHY David did it (I'd wager it was a pride thing based on other stories about David...) This is something that many Christians would do well to remember: God cares about our hearts, not our actions. I think it's probably best not to go off on that too much, though.

Honestly, I'd be willing to bet God doesn't care about this nearly as much as a lot of Christians seem to.

[SailorDove]

The Mith has spoken!

Yeah, I'm not for pursuing this anymore either.

But if anyone wants links that are more logical & better written than my ramblings, feel free to pm me.

[mechana2015]

ABOUT SATELLITES TRACKING INDIVIDUAL PEOPLE:
Could be done, if you plant a fairly powerful transmitter on them. Like a satellite phone. Actually, it would be a whole lot cheaper, and much more effective, to hack into the cell phone network. Lots more people carry the required transponder (their cell) and the telecommunication industry has already provided them with an infrastructure. If the government ever has a mind to do this, cell phones (and blackberries, and such) are what they would choose, not satellites.

Exactly what I'm thinking. Everyone and their mom... grandmother...great grandmother... ect. ad nausium. Has a cell phone, and uses it at all times. They can already locate the most basic phone to a 'cell' on the grid at the minimum and much closer depending on the type of phone... hence why 911 works sucessfully on cell phones.

With reguards to the rest. I wouldn't be worried unless they made a 'no christians allowed' clause or something of that sort to get one.

Regarding tracking, the RFID in a card of this size would probably work like a denser magnetic strip on a credit card but editable, holding data such as criminal record, immigration status, and medical warnings (high tech med-alert bracelet), since it couldn't be read from more than a relatively short distance, and most likely only by line of sight, and range may vary due to proximity to electronics, and the structure of the building you are in. (Yup, even the building. I've been in a building that blocked all FM radio waves from the outside.) Think of how well (or not) your own basic radio works when you go through a tunnel, under power lines or near the wrong objects around the house. I've warped radio signals by touching or even standing NEAR the radio antenna.

[Stephen]

The Matrix has you.

[Shao Feng-Li]

If they start planting chips in our skin, then I'll be worried, heh.

Everyone knows only Satan-worshippers eat oatmeal raisin.
Reply With Quote

Or anything that has raisins in it.

[Shadowalker]

*sigh*

The Mark of the Beast probably isn't a physical mark.

Then how would believers living during the end times know who has it, and who doesn't have it?

Personally, I find the idea that the Mark of the Beast is a physical mark of loyalty to the Anti-Christ to be more sensible than to assume that it's a spiritual mark that can only be spiritually or supernaturally percieved. The Mark of the Beast would have to be applied to all of those who, in the end times, choose to reject God. That would include people who deny the very existence of spiritual realities.

It shows allegiance to Satan and rejection of God. Would having a microchip implanted in your hand or forehead show you don't believe in God? No, it wouldn't.

It would depend on the circumstances surrounding the implanting of such a microchip.

I don't believe that the Mark of the Beast will be applied through innocuous stealth manuevers either - it will be clear that those who recieve it are rejecting God and Jesus Christ.

However, the implanting of such a microchip could be a key part to pledging loyalty to the Anti-Christ as world leader, and object of worldly idolatry. If it is so, it'll be as clear a case of blaspheming against God as early Christians succumbing to the demand of Roman authorities to worship Roman gods.

For the love of God, people, He gave you a brain. USE IT SOMETIME.

The only, ONLY way it could be the Mark of the Beast is if you were required to say, "I completely and totally reject belief in God and the message of the Bible" in order to get one.

I think that stating complete belief in the Anti-Christ - belief that would equate to treating the Anti-Christ as God - could take the place of a statement explicitly denying God.

Putting any idol before God is essentially the same as rejecting God within the Christian faith, in my current belief.

Given that the First Amendment prohibits any law being passed abridging the free exercise of religion, this will not happen. Thus, any microchip, ID thing, whatever CANNOT be the Mark of the Beast. Revelation makes it VERY CLEAR that no Christian will have the mark.

Well, I agree that as long as the American First Amendment exists, and is honoured, that a government-mandated microchip implantation can't be the Mark of the Beast. At least not for Americans.

So, before any such microchip could be the Mark of the Beast for Americans, your Constitution would need to be done away with, either officially or unofficially.

So yes, like BlkMage said, it's not going to be a situation where a Christian gets one of these things and has made a mistake.

Agreed. Getting one of these things will require a conscious rejection of the Christian faith, possibly through accepting the idolization of a world leader (i.e. the anti-Christ).

Anyone who firmly believes the message of Christ, and devotes their life to Him, and tries to live their life in accordance with His will, is not going to be kicked out of Heaven for having a freaking chip in their head.

And Christians wonder why everyone makes fun of what we believe.

Not everyone does. The vast majority of people worldwide believe in God.

[Mr. SmartyPants]

Dude... what part of "No Theological Debates" do you not understand, Shadowalker?

You always seem to be hostile and have the need to defend yourself on the forums. =\ It's annoying me.