Theological Question

[Kunoichi]

OKay, I didn't know where to stick this but is is bugging me.

I was reading a book about getting your best life now. But a point came up that I'm curious about.

When does "claiming" your promises and testing God line become crossed?

For instance, if your in a financial struggle, this pastor said to pray as if God is already going to work on it which I understand is faith but at the same token, the Bible says not to test God. So well, how do you claim your promises that God has given you without testing him??

[termyt]

When you pray to God, it is OK to assume that your prayer is already answered. The trick is that it is God that knows what is best for you - better than you yourself. You may think you need $50 to make rent, but God may have another plan.

Ask God for what you want and what you think you need and be confident not that He will give you what you ask for, but what you need. If you don't get the $50 to make rent, then God has another plan and He will be there to see you through it.

Testing God is more along the lines of saying "I'll follow you if you prove to me you are real by doing this" or by saying that "You said that I am more important than birds who do not sow or reap but eat anyways so I'm quitting my job. You take care of me."

[yippee2393]

When you pray to God, it is OK to assume that your prayer is already answered. The trick is that it is God that knows what is best for you - better than you yourself. You may think you need $50 to make rent, but God may have another plan.

Ask God for what you want and what you think you need and be confident not that He will give you what you ask for, but what you need. If you don't get the $50 to make rent, then God has another plan and He will be there to see you through it.

Testing God is more along the lines of saying "I'll follow you if you prove to me you are real by doing this" or by saying that "You said that I am more important than birds who do not sow or reap but eat anyways so I'm quitting my job. You take care of me."

+1 If it really is the best thing for you, you'll get it. And even if you don't get what you pray for, you can trust God to work it out in a way even better than you could imagine.

[Blitzkrieg1701]

Nicely put!

[Kkun]

When you pray to God, it is OK to assume that your prayer is already answered. The trick is that it is God that knows what is best for you - better than you yourself. You may think you need $50 to make rent, but God may have another plan.

Ask God for what you want and what you think you need and be confident not that He will give you what you ask for, but what you need. If you don't get the $50 to make rent, then God has another plan and He will be there to see you through it.

Testing God is more along the lines of saying "I'll follow you if you prove to me you are real by doing this" or by saying that "You said that I am more important than birds who do not sow or reap but eat anyways so I'm quitting my job. You take care of me."

This is a very good post. I don't have anything else to add.

[uc pseudonym]

Despite the thread title, I think this discussion isn't too theological. Continue with caution.

Termyt has already given a very good answer, so let me address something else. From your comments in the opening post, I assume you are reading Joel Osteen's book? As far as I'm concerned, Osteen crosses that line.

[kat-su-chan]

I agree with what everyone else has said so far. Alot of the time when we pray, we ask for what we want. So I often try to be concious of that when I pray. I usually lay out what I feel my needs are; for instance my China missions trip last october was pretty low on funds. I prayed to God about the funds we needed, and how we really felt that He was guiding on this trip. That we trusted him to provide for us, and if the funds didn't come in then we also understood. That it was God's will, so whatever happened would happen and that God would provide if he felt the need to.
But we had already purchased our tickets!
As it turned out, one family which we didn't even ask to give to us, gave us a check for 1,000 dollars a few days before we flew out!! And we were only looking at about 500 dollars more, meanwhile we got double that!
Another time, actually a month or so ago I had rushed to get my portfolio for university ready. It was a private school, and early acceptance deadlines were already past but for some reason they decided to let me apply anyways. So, after scrambling in a mad rush, I was on my way to the interview, map in hand and had a while so I stopped to grab lunch at a sushi place. I had prayed a lot about my decision to apply to school, because I really wasn't sure what God wanted me to do. I feel as though God is nudging me to over seas missionary work, specifically in China and Japan. However, I've been hesitant. I couldn't figure out why God would give me talent in art, and have such a divine passion for manga and writing and want me to go overseas and not use any of it. It didn't make sense to me. Suddenly I came to the realisation that maybe God wanted me to move there and do overseas missions, but through being a manga artist and not camping out kind of deal. However, I wasn't sure, so I prayed and prayed asking God so show me, to make it evident to me with my interview if that was where he wanted me to be or not. And so this fine afternoon there I am sitting in the sushi restaurant and a random man approaches me and starts asking me things about what job interview I am going to and what I'm doing and so forth. Eventually, when he realised what I was going to apply to school for - illustration for the sequential artist - and that I was really into manga he offered me a job right then and there, he had a comic that he needed published and that if my work was good he'd hire me. He gave me his contact information and I was astonished. It was just as though God dropped it right in my lap.
And then I got accepted into the private school. and it all made sense from there. (Mind you I haven't contacted the guy back yet, because I don't feel I am ready for a job - my perspective and stuff isn't consistent enough yet.)
So...it was a pretty clear indication to me that God was saying, yes I want you here -- for now

So...I dunno if that helps at all... But if it's God's will it's going to happen, and often it's going to be much more than you or I can even suspect...don't put limitations to what God will do, instead pray earnestly about your needs and whether God will provide for them directly and even more than you'd imagine, or whether God would lead you in a new direction you can and you will rest assured knowing that everything was going to happen the way that God wanted it to. It's all in his hands

[Tyrel]

OKay, I didn't know where to stick this but is is bugging me.

I was reading a book about getting your best life now. But a point came up that I'm curious about.

When does "claiming" your promises and testing God line become crossed?

For instance, if your in a financial struggle, this pastor said to pray as if God is already going to work on it which I understand is faith but at the same token, the Bible says not to test God. So well, how do you claim your promises that God has given you without testing him??

What I think has to be understood is that a petition to God should be done in his name. What does that mean exactly? "In His Name" doesn't simply mean ending a prayer saying a set of words, as though it were some seal for a spell. A prayer in his name is a prayer which is done in recognition of his will, in submission to his will, and with the goal of glorifying him. A prayer, as C.S. Lewis once brilliantly put it, doesn't change God, it changes you.

Whenever you pray to God for yourself to receive something, if it is not a prayer which is completely unselfish and was done with the intent that God should be glorified, and that his will, however horrible for you, will be accomplished, then your prayer IS testing him.

God isn't a teddy bear. He doesn't do us favors. We are his children, and we are learning to walk in the upright way. To pray anything selfishly is perhaps not a proper prayer {at least, if that prayer is a petition/request}.

That's my 2 cents.

[Danderson]

Funny....I was just reading about this in my devotional.....But what it said has already been said here....ditto....

[Fantasy Dreamer]

When you pray to God, it is OK to assume that your prayer is already answered. The trick is that it is God that knows what is best for you - better than you yourself. You may think you need $50 to make rent, but God may have another plan.

Ask God for what you want and what you think you need and be confident not that He will give you what you ask for, but what you need. If you don't get the $50 to make rent, then God has another plan and He will be there to see you through it.

Testing God is more along the lines of saying "I'll follow you if you prove to me you are real by doing this" or by saying that "You said that I am more important than birds who do not sow or reap but eat anyways so I'm quitting my job. You take care of me."

Very well put. However, the Bible does say "Ask and you shall receive." So, we are told to ask for our hearts desires. But as you have said, this is not a test, unless you are praying "I want a new car, and if I don't get it then I won't believe in God." That is a test. We are to pray in His name and asking that His will be done, not our own, trusting in Him to do what is best, for he knows what is right for all of us and He is in control.

So...I dunno if that helps at all... But if it's God's will it's going to happen, and often it's going to be much more than you or I can even suspect...don't put limitations to what God will do, instead pray earnestly about your needs and whether God will provide for them directly and even more than you'd imagine, or whether God would lead you in a new direction you can and you will rest assured knowing that everything was going to happen the way that God wanted it to. It's all in his hands

This is so true. I couldn't have said it better. God holds all thing in His hands. And just because we think we need something doesn't mean He will give it to use, nor does it mean we are 'testing' God if we ask for it. Sometimes we ask for ten dollars and he gives us forty. This only shows how much He blesses us when we follow Him and obey His commandments.

What I think has to be understood is that a petition to God should be done in his name. What does that mean exactly? "In His Name" doesn't simply mean ending a prayer saying a set of words, as though it were some seal for a spell. A prayer in his name is a prayer which is done in recognition of his will, in submission to his will, and with the goal of glorifying him. A prayer, as C.S. Lewis once brilliantly put it, doesn't change God, it changes you.

Whenever you pray to God for yourself to receive something, if it is not a prayer which is completely unselfish and was done with the intent that God should be glorified, and that his will, however horrible for you, will be accomplished, then your prayer IS testing him.

God isn't a teddy bear. He doesn't do us favors. We are his children, and we are learning to walk in the upright way. To pray anything selfishly is perhaps not a proper prayer {at least, if that prayer is a petition/request}.

That's my 2 cents.

Ditto. I know, I'm just repeating what everyone else has already said in my own words (and with quotes...) but these truths are important enough that they should be repeated over and over again. Prayer is so deep that we must continuously study God's word throughout our lives to learn about prayer and how to properly pray to God. When we pray, we go before the sovereign God of creation, and that is one of the most important things to remember. So even when we ask for something, praying in his name and "your will be done" it must be done with reverence. So not only must our requests bring glory to God, but we must also pray in a manner which is glorifying and honoring to Him.

[Kamille]

This is a fairly tough question for me and even though I think this thread has correctly described the problems and solutions, I'll just put my thoughts in as well. I see two interwoven sides to the situation. One is Mark 11:24 - "Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." But to do that we must think of prayer the way Jesus thinks of prayer, which is a request that is in complete obedience to God's will, as Jesus is in complete obedience to God's will. And although Christianity has many denominations, I believe that the best, if not only, way to know God's will is via the word of God (Bible) and the Holy Spirit. With these two forces in your heart you should have a much clearer understanding as to what to pray for.

[mitsuki lover]

Prayer is not to be taken lightly.In it's highest form our prayers are a means of worshipping God.Name It And Claim It simply denigrates(IMO)
what prayer is and ought to be.

[Tyrel]

One is Mark 11:24 - "Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." But to do that we must think of prayer the way Jesus thinks of prayer, which is a request that is in complete obedience to God's will,...

I agree with your post, but I point this section out to make a fairly serious point. We often, I think, make the mistake of thinking that Prayer is something we do to get God to be with us, or get God to do stuff for us. May I suggest that Prayer is more like a drawing closer to God than it is supposed to be a "request". Let's observe Mark 11:24 again, conviniently quoted above. Whatever you ask of In prayer. What I understand from this is that prayers can be offered also as requests. In the ancient world, Prayers were looked upon more as offerings than requests. I suppose each of these reflects the societies from which they come. Ours is inherently selfish.

Prayers are not things you ask God for, and I don't think it quite does them justice even to call them "conversations" with God. Prayer is literally intercourse with the Holy Spirit. If that sounds strange, perhaps look up the word "Intercourse".

Petitions are requests to God. Usually done with Fasting and Prayer. However, neither Fasting, nor Prayer, are really supposed to be seen as mechanisms for petitions, as though we can simply fast and get whatever we would like, or pray and get whatever we want.

A petition to God, I suggest, should take the form of glorifying him ultimately. Instead of "make/help me pass that exam" the prayer should be more like "Help me to get through with a sound mind, and guide my feet along the path". Instead of "Please help him/her like me" it should be "Please help me do what I need to in this situation".

I would also suggest that 20 minutes a day isn't really a prayer in the true sense, and neither is 20 hours, or 20 seconds. Your prayer should not be viewed as a time constraint. People often finish up prayers in order to rush off and do something more important, or more immediately important. I think seeing Prayer as a matter of time is a huge mistake.

That said, it is an equally great mistake to think that a proper petition to God is simply praying twice a day, when convenient everyday for something. Are you fasting? What are you doing to make an effort to draw closer to God, and deprive yourself of all selfish desires? In the Scripture of Isaiah, a day of fasting, on it's own, is treated almost as a mockery of a petition {Isaiah 58:5}.

Most people become upset with God, and are even so presumptuous as to question his existence, when their simple prayers aren't answered. The Hebrew Bible, again in Isaiah, says this;

"'Why have we fasted,' they say,
'and you have not seen it?
Why have we humbled ourselves,
and you have not noticed?'
"Yet on the day of your fasting, you do as you please
and exploit all your workers.
Your fasting ends in quarreling and strife,
and in striking each other with wicked fists.
You cannot fast as you do today
and expect your voice to be heard on high." ~Isaiah 58:3-4


I'm simply putting it out there, because I think it needs to be said. We view prayer as asking God for something, for the same reason the ancients saw prayer as an offering to gods, as though to appease them; our culture is being reflected. A prayer changes us, not God. A prayer is coming into touch with the Spirit of Grace. Truly Amazing. A petition, a type of prayer, is not simply done with words. It is something we do in devoting ourselves to God. We let his will be done, and we deprive ourselves of even the very basic of selfish desires {food, sex, drink other than water, ect.} so as to ensure that we aren't praying for something out of any selfish desire.

[Kamille]

[quote="Tyrel (post: 1189445)"]I agree with your post, but I point this section out to make a fairly serious point. We often, I think, make the mistake of thinking that Prayer is something we do to get God to be with us, or get God to do stuff for us. May I suggest that Prayer is more like a drawing closer to God than it is supposed to be a "request". Let's observe Mark 11:24 again, conviniently quoted above. Whatever you ask of In prayer. What I understand from this is that prayers can be offered also as requests. In the ancient world, Prayers were looked upon more as offerings than requests. I suppose each of these reflects the societies from which they come. Ours is inherently selfish.

Prayers are not things you ask God for, and I don't think it quite does them justice even to call them "conversations" with God. Prayer is literally intercourse with the Holy Spirit. If that sounds strange, perhaps look up the word "Intercourse".

Petitions are requests to God. Usually done with Fasting and Prayer. However, neither Fasting, nor Prayer, are really supposed to be seen as mechanisms for petitions, as though we can simply fast and get whatever we would like, or pray and get whatever we want.

A petition to God, I suggest, should take the form of glorifying him ultimately. Instead of "make/help me pass that exam" the prayer should be more like "Help me to get through with a sound mind, and guide my feet along the path". Instead of "Please help him/her like me" it should be "Please help me do what I need to in this situation".

I would also suggest that 20 minutes a day isn't really a prayer in the true sense, and neither is 20 hours, or 20 seconds. Your prayer should not be viewed as a time constraint. People often finish up prayers in order to rush off and do something more important, or more immediately important. I think seeing Prayer as a matter of time is a huge mistake.

That said, it is an equally great mistake to think that a proper petition to God is simply praying twice a day, when convenient everyday for something. Are you fasting? What are you doing to make an effort to draw closer to God, and deprive yourself of all selfish desires? In the Scripture of Isaiah, a day of fasting, on it's own, is treated almost as a mockery of a petition {Isaiah 58:5}.

Most people become upset with God, and are even so presumptuous as to question his existence, when their simple prayers aren't answered. The Hebrew Bible, again in Isaiah, says this]


Excellent observations. Thanks. I'd also like to point out another thing about Mark 11:24. I think Jesus was really stressing the importance of belief in our all-powerful God. When we pray we've got to believe it's going to have the desired effect (getting closer to God, changing our lives, doing His will, etc.) because He's just that powerful and all things are possible through Him. If we just say "Oh, I'll pray, but it's not like anything's going to come of it, or anything" that's just a waste. Instead it should be, "Yes it's working. I feel Him all around me. Great things are going to happen because He's with me". Believe in the power of God - that's probably the number one point.

[Azier the Swordsman]

The way I see it, God doesn't ever simply settle with just giving us our heart's desires or simply answering yes to our prayers when we ask for things, should He be so inclined. Instead, He seems to have a knack for thinking up some rather way cool and interesting ways for granting us what we ask for, even if it doesn't take place in our timing nor does it ever seem like anything is actually happening in the background.

You should always have faith that God will give you what you are asking and believing for, not necessarily exactly what you ask for nor right away, but at some point in the future and probably a heck of a lot better than you were thinking of when you asked for it.

Also note that God will not grant you requests that you aren't personally ready for. I speak from personal experience when I say that some requests that do not happen immediately can be simply because God wants to deal with your personal flaws first, so that when He does give it to you, you will be absolutely and completely ready to handle it better than if He had given it to you the very moment you asked for it.

[Tyrel]

I think Jesus was really stressing the importance of belief in our all-powerful God. When we pray we've got to believe it's going to have the desired effect

What the heck, why not.. I've got more to say about this, but I'll keep it nice.

Basically, I think this is the problem]The way I see it, God doesn't ever simply settle with just giving us our heart's desires or simply answering yes to our prayers when we ask for things, should He be so inclined. Instead, He seems to have a knack for thinking up some rather way cool and interesting ways for granting us what we ask for, even if it doesn't take place in our timing nor does it ever seem like anything is actually happening in the background.

You should always have faith that God will give you what you are asking and believing for, not necessarily exactly what you ask for nor right away, but at some point in the future and probably a heck of a lot better than you were thinking of when you asked for it.

Also note that God will not grant you requests that you aren't personally ready for. I speak from personal experience when I say that some requests that do not happen immediately can be simply because God wants to deal with your personal flaws first, so that when He does give it to you, you will be absolutely and completely ready to handle it better than if He had given it to you the very moment you asked for it.[/QUOTE]

hehe.. perfect example.. Sorry to make you an example here, but here in your post is yet another example of this view.


Prayer is not a question. Prayer should not be a wish list. Prayer should not be asking God for things you don't deserve to ask him. In his presence what are you? He isn't a teddy bear.

Prayer is Not asking him for something. Prayer should never involve doubt. He who is double minded about prayer doesn't really pray in His name. All true prayers in His name are answered faithfully, and things asked of God in his name {for his glory}, are granted, {but what is really granted is your recognition of what is God's will}.

Do you get what I mean to say?

[Tyrel]

The way I see it, God doesn't ever simply settle with just giving us our heart's desires or simply answering yes to our prayers when we ask for things, should He be so inclined. Instead, He seems to have a knack for thinking up some rather way cool and interesting ways for granting us what we ask for, even if it doesn't take place in our timing nor does it ever seem like anything is actually happening in the background.

You should always have faith that God will give you what you are asking and believing for, not necessarily exactly what you ask for nor right away, but at some point in the future and probably a heck of a lot better than you were thinking of when you asked for it.

Also note that God will not grant you requests that you aren't personally ready for. I speak from personal experience when I say that some requests that do not happen immediately can be simply because God wants to deal with your personal flaws first, so that when He does give it to you, you will be absolutely and completely ready to handle it better than if He had given it to you the very moment you asked for it.

hehe.. perfect example.. Sorry to make you an example here, but here in your post is yet another example of this view.


Prayer is not a question. Prayer should not be a wish list. Prayer should not be asking God for things you don't deserve to ask him. In his presence what are you? He isn't a teddy bear.

Prayer is Not asking him for something. Prayer should never involve doubt. He who is double minded about prayer doesn't really pray in His name. All true prayers in His name are answered faithfully, and things asked of God in his name {for his glory}, are granted, {but what is really granted is your recognition of what is God's will}.

Do you get what I mean to say?

[Azier the Swordsman]

hehe.. perfect example.. Sorry to make you an example here, but here in your post is yet another example of this view.


Prayer is not a question. Prayer should not be a wish list. Prayer should not be asking God for things you don't deserve to ask him. In his presence what are you? He isn't a teddy bear.

Prayer is Not asking him for something. Prayer should never involve doubt. He who is double minded about prayer doesn't really pray in His name. All true prayers in His name are answered faithfully, and things asked of God in his name {for his glory}, are granted, {but what is really granted is your recognition of what is God's will}.

Do you get what I mean to say?

Indeed. And I did not mean to imply in my post that prayer is solely for asking God for things, and that is not what it should be used for. Prayer is about developing a relationship with the creator of the universe - not a genie. However, if you desire something, or there is something in your personal life that you really need, then you should ask. Prayer should never, however, be turned into a begging session.

[Mave]

My church is going through a huge campaign [for the lack of a better term] for prayer and the discussion here is very timely. There's still a lot about prayer that I don't understand and appreciate.

[Azier the Swordsman]

My church is going through a huge campaign [for the lack of a better term] for prayer and the discussion here is very timely. There's still a lot about prayer that I don't understand and appreciate.

The coolest thing about prayer to me is that no matter what I'm going through, there is always Someone to discuss it with. Anywhere. Anytime.

[Tyrel]

The coolest thing about prayer to me is that no matter what I'm going through, there is always Someone to discuss it with. Anywhere. Anytime.

That's interesting... I guess I don't find that to be fully true, but I can see the truth in it. But it is interesting

[yippee2393]

The coolest thing about prayer to me is that no matter what I'm going through, there is always Someone to discuss it with. Anywhere. Anytime.

So true...That's one of the bigger parts of prayer. Bigger than being able to ask for things. And a HUGE weapon against depression too.

Anyway, as for the original question...I think we should pray as though God will answer, not necesarily give us exactly what we want. He will tell us "yes", "no", "not right now", or "I have something better". And if He doesn't give us exactly what we want (Which, quite often, He might not. We are imperfect, and can't see what the future holds), then He has something WAY better in store for us...and yes, tests and trials are WAY better than any material goods, because they bring us closer to Him. The Bible also says we shouldn't be afraid to ask for things, because no father will give his son a scorpion instead of a loaf of bread...or something like that...I'll get the exact words in a bit.

[termyt]

hehe.. perfect example.. Sorry to make you an example here, but here in your post is yet another example of this view.


Prayer is not a question. Prayer should not be a wish list. Prayer should not be asking God for things you don't deserve to ask him. In his presence what are you? He isn't a teddy bear.

Prayer is Not asking him for something. Prayer should never involve doubt. He who is double minded about prayer doesn't really pray in His name. All true prayers in His name are answered faithfully, and things asked of God in his name {for his glory}, are granted, {but what is really granted is your recognition of what is God's will}.

Do you get what I mean to say?

Id and you make some good points, but I disagree with your assertion.

I do not think prayer is limited in any way. While prayer should encompass a lot more, it can also be a question, a wish list, or for things we don’t deserve. (If I only asked for what I deserved, then I should be praying to be cast into hellfire – it is all I deserve for my rebellious life.) And prayer can be full of doubt.

If we only approach God in prayer when we are confident that we are within His will with no doubt that the prayer we are praying will fall in line with His will for our lives, then when would we approach Him? Once a month? If that often? It just seems to me that you are saying when I am sick I shouldn’t go to the doctor until I know what’s wrong with me.

In the 9th chapter of Mark, a man approaches Jesus with his demon-possessed son. After a bit of an exchange, he says to Jesus “But if You can do anything, take pity on us and help us!”

Jesus replied, “’If You can!’ All things are possible to him who believes.”

Immediately the boy's father cried out and began saying, 'I do believe; help me in my unbelief.'

This passage is not about prayer specifically, but it is about a man who was desperate for help. He did not understand God’s will and he wasn’t even sure if Jesus could help him, let alone if he was willing to. All he could do was beg Jesus for any help he could get.

There is no purer prayer we can offer than the prayer lifted up by this man. Full of doubt, frightened and desperate this man cried out to the living God for help begging that his wish be fulfilled.

I don’t care what you wish for. If you want an Xbox 360 so much you can’t see straight, then pray for one. If you want something that badly, then it is standing in the way of you doing what God wants you to do anyways, so it’s best to bring it before God in prayer. Then take a deep breath and go get a part time job or something so you can earn the money for it. Just remember to praise God when your prayer is answered – either yea or nay

[yippee2393]

Wow termyt...when did you get so good at ending discussions? I think that's the third time just since I've been here. I think that's pretty much the whole answer in one post.

BTW: Here's the passage I was talking about:

9"So I say to you: Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 10For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened. 11"Which of you fathers, if your son asks for[f] a fish, will give him a snake instead? 12Or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? 13If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!"

Because of this passage, I think we should never be afraid to ask God for something, but we should always say "If it is your will". Our will is not above God's, and our knowledge of what is really best for us is not above God's.

[Tyrel]

Sorry, I just saw it now.

Id and you make some good points, but I disagree with your assertion.

I do not think prayer is limited in any way. While prayer should encompass a lot more, it can also be a question, a wish list, or for things we don’]

Well, here's definately where we disagree. See, for you to say "prayer is not limited" sounds strange to me, as though you are saying that if prayer is not supposed to include a wish list, it's limited. If you're Chem class is limited, it means you're not going over some material in Chemistry, not because you aren't going to be able to organize a paintball outing. Prayer is the coming closer to God. Are you limited in how close you want to draw yourself to God? No. So I agree prayer isn't limited. However, when you say things like;

I don’]

Here's where I sincerely disagree with you. If you want an Xbox so badly you can't see straight, the prayer should be about you letting go, and Giving GOD that place in you. If you want an Xbox that badly, then praying for it is inherently selfish, and therefore NOT in his name. Jesus called us to pray in his name, and worship in Spirit and in Truth.

Like I said, this common view of prayer today is just going with the flow of our culture. Ancient people thought Prayer was about keep wrath away, and we think it's about feeling all good inside, and getting what we want.

God is not a teddy bear.

Asking God for what you want is almost inherently sinful. If we want to pray in his name, ask him for what he wants, or that what he wants, we too would want. "let my words, be your words, let my thoughts be your thoughts". That is the heart of prayer; drawing closer to him, and being in true intercourse with the Spirit of Truth. To make that amazing thing out to be a time when we can ask for everything we didn't get on our old Christmas list, is a mockery of that.

Jesus said to ask in his name. Even in Gethsemane, he shows us that if we are asking for something because we want it so badly we can't see straight, we should always desire above that for God to take away selfish desires, and to accept that we can't get what we want, so that God may be glorified in us.

I don't think Sharing with God, and dumping the problem on him and all, is a bad thing at all. However, acting like prayer is a wish list, is the same as acting like Prayer is a bargaining game. It's just not.

Because of this passage, I think we should never be afraid to ask God for something, but we should always say "If it is your will". Our will is not above God's, and our knowledge of what is really best for us is not above God's.

Also, I'd like to point out that God is not always immediately benevolent towards us, his children. Sometimes he makes you suffer, so that others can gain hope. If you gave yourself to him, you should accept what comes your way, just like Job, whether good or bad. If you need to live a miserable life for somebody else to gain hope, or if you need to die next week so that your funeral will awaken two or even one other to Christ, then that's a good thing.

The self seeking attitude is far too popular.

[Tyrel]

Because of this passage, I think we should never be afraid to ask God for something, but we should always say "If it is your will". Our will is not above God's, and our knowledge of what is really best for us is not above God's.

Also, I'd like to point out that God is not always immediately benevolent towards us, his children. Sometimes he makes you suffer, so that others can gain hope. If you gave yourself to him, you should accept what comes your way, just like Job, whether good or bad. If you need to live a miserable life for somebody else to gain hope, or if you need to die next week so that your funeral will awaken two or even one other to Christ, then that's a good thing.

The self seeking attitude is far too popular.

[yippee2393]

Also, I'd like to point out that God is not always immediately benevolent towards us, his children. Sometimes he makes you suffer, so that others can gain hope. If you gave yourself to him, you should accept what comes your way, just like Job, whether good or bad. If you need to live a miserable life for somebody else to gain hope, or if you need to die next week so that your funeral will awaken two or even one other to Christ, then that's a good thing.

The self seeking attitude is far too popular.

I partly agree with you there...God can use one person's trials or death to save other people, but I don't think he would kill someone to save someone else. Then again, none of us know God's will...and I don't have Bible verses handy to prove this, so I won't say you're wrong and I'm right.

And I also agree that if you want an xbox more than God, that you should pray for God to help you realize that you don't need it...but you can pray that God would come up with the means to get an xbox, as long as you remember to pray, as Jesus did, "Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven."

To summarize, I think you can pray for whatever you want, as long as you're not putting it above God's will for us. And as long as you don't blame God if you don't get what you want.

[Azier the Swordsman]

I do not believe it is a sin to ask for an Xbox. God is our heavenly father. The Bible states that he enjoys giving us the desires of our hearts. However, note that he will not give us something if he feels that we intend to put it before him.

[Tyrel]

I do not believe it is a sin to ask for an Xbox. God is our heavenly father. The Bible states that he enjoys giving us the desires of our hearts. However, note that he will not give us something if he feels that we intend to put it before him.

Sorry, I don't mean to challenge you on this or anything, but I'm curious, can you provide a single passage for that? I can accept that it's there, because I don't necessarily see any contradiction, but I am curious to see these passages and consider them.

[Azier the Swordsman]

Psalm 37:4
Delight yourself in the LORD and he will give you the desires of your heart.

Psalm 145:16
You open your hand and satisfy the desires of every living thing

Psalm 145:19
He fulfills the desires of those who fear him; he hears their cry and saves them.

Ephesians 6:18
And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests.

1 Samuel 1
The Birth of Samuel
1 There was a certain man from Ramathaim, a Zuphite [a] from the hill country of Ephraim, whose name was Elkanah son of Jeroham, the son of Elihu, the son of Tohu, the son of Zuph, an Ephraimite. 2 He had two wives; one was called Hannah and the other Peninnah. Peninnah had children, but Hannah had none.

3 Year after year this man went up from his town to worship and sacrifice to the LORD Almighty at Shiloh, where Hophni and Phinehas, the two sons of Eli, were priests of the LORD. 4 Whenever the day came for Elkanah to sacrifice, he would give portions of the meat to his wife Peninnah and to all her sons and daughters. 5 But to Hannah he gave a double portion because he loved her, and the LORD had closed her womb. 6 And because the LORD had closed her womb, her rival kept provoking her in order to irritate her. 7 This went on year after year. Whenever Hannah went up to the house of the LORD, her rival provoked her till she wept and would not eat. 8 Elkanah her husband would say to her, "Hannah, why are you weeping? Why don't you eat? Why are you downhearted? Don't I mean more to you than ten sons?"

9 Once when they had finished eating and drinking in Shiloh, Hannah stood up. Now Eli the priest was sitting on a chair by the doorpost of the LORD's temple. [b] 10 In bitterness of soul Hannah wept much and prayed to the LORD. 11 And she made a vow, saying, "O LORD Almighty, if you will only look upon your servant's misery and remember me, and not forget your servant but give her a son, then I will give him to the LORD for all the days of his life, and no razor will ever be used on his head."

12 As she kept on praying to the LORD, Eli observed her mouth. 13 Hannah was praying in her heart, and her lips were moving but her voice was not heard. Eli thought she was drunk 14 and said to her, "How long will you keep on getting drunk? Get rid of your wine."

15 "Not so, my lord," Hannah replied, "I am a woman who is deeply troubled. I have not been drinking wine or beer; I was pouring out my soul to the LORD. 16 Do not take your servant for a wicked woman; I have been praying here out of my great anguish and grief."

17 Eli answered, "Go in peace, and may the God of Israel grant you what you have asked of him."

18 She said, "May your servant find favor in your eyes." Then she went her way and ate something, and her face was no longer downcast.

19 Early the next morning they arose and worshiped before the LORD and then went back to their home at Ramah. Elkanah lay with Hannah his wife, and the LORD remembered her. 20 So in the course of time Hannah conceived and gave birth to a son. She named him Samuel, [c] saying, "Because I asked the LORD for him."