Saving your first kiss?

[K. Ayato]

Hooah!

[Warrior 4 Jesus]

minakichan, I hope you're joking, because if you were married you'd be kissing... and more.

[minakichan]

minakichan, I hope you're joking, because if you were married you'd be kissing... and more.

XD;;;

Like I said, I don't think it's necessary, it's not like you are required to do that when you're married. (You just shouldn't do That when you're not married.) Think about it, there are plenty of couples who still love each other that get along fine without that kind of stuff (whether they've lost sexual desire, cannot physically do it, have some kind of medical condition so that it's dangerous to do it, are separated or in a family/social position that they can't do it, etc), so I don't think it's an "If A happens, then B will happen" situation.

[bakura_fan]

XD;;;

Like I said, I don't think it's necessary, it's not like you are required to do that when you're married. (You just shouldn't do That when you're not married.) Think about it, there are plenty of couples who still love each other that get along fine without that kind of stuff (whether they've lost sexual desire, cannot physically do it, have some kind of medical condition so that it's dangerous to do it, are separated or in a family/social position that they can't do it, etc), so I don't think it's an "If A happens, then B will happen" situation.

....not trying to sound rude...but...I hope your future husband has the same outlook, cause if you resist any kissing he'll take it as rejection towards him and who he is. I'm sure that if you made it clear you didn't want to kiss until marriage then he would probably respect that. But saying it's not necessary is just as big as saying physical contact of any kind when you're married isn't necessary. I've been away from my husband for just a little over four months. He's finally coming back next week. and not having him around...that's torture.

[Nate]

Like I said, I don't think it's necessary, it's not like you are required to do that when you're married. (You just shouldn't do That when you're not married.)

While this is completely true, and I don't deny that, then I would have to ask. If you're not going to have sex with the other person, why bother getting married? The reason Paul gave in the NT for getting married was if we can't control our desires, otherwise we should remain unmarried to focus on God. If you have control over your desires, then, there would be no point to getting married at all, right?

So while in theory your statement is true, it still really doesn't make sense, if you know what I mean. If you're not going to have sex with the other person, there's no reason to get married. Well, aside from tax breaks and getting to use your spouse's health care insurance, I guess. But that's a pretty shallow reason to marry someone.

[bakura_fan]

While this is completely true, and I don't deny that, then I would have to ask. If you're not going to have sex with the other person, why bother getting married? The reason Paul gave in the NT for getting married was if we can't control our desires, otherwise we should remain unmarried to focus on God. If you have control over your desires, then, there would be no point to getting married at all, right?

So while in theory your statement is true, it still really doesn't make sense, if you know what I mean. If you're not going to have sex with the other person, there's no reason to get married. Well, aside from tax breaks and getting to use your spouse's health care insurance, I guess. But that's a pretty shallow reason to marry someone.

I agree. If God has meant for you to be with someone in marriage, I'm sure those feelings will come about at some point. However, there are people out there who have not been called to marriage. I just know that when I handed everything over to Him, He gave me the man of my dreams. So, saying that if you get in a relationship (marriage) that you don't see the point in basically being physical, then I wonder, what is it about being physical that you don't like? Is it because of how it's portrayed on tv or in movies?

[minakichan]

Sorry, didn't mean to sound offensive. If you want physical contact and such, then there's nothing wrong with it of course, please, go ahead. I just don't think that you HAVE to do that in marriage. It's not an "EWW KISSING IS GROSS" thing, but I just don't see it as an integral component in a marriage relationship.

If, for example, my spouse has (hereditary) AIDS (assuming he's lived that long), or is a cripple, or was, I dunno, sexually abused as a child and has an unconscious fear of physical contact (sorry for all the out-there non-PC examples), then it's not in our best interest to engage in Those Kinds of Activities, but I don't think these people should be excluded from getting married. If they aren't in those categories, well, I think the people who ARE in those categories prove that That Stuff isn't necessary. Also, uh... don't want to sound rude or anything, but there are a lot of... people who are... past a certain age who biologically no longer have a desire to have sex, but they can still be a loving couple, right?

EDIT:: and to actually answer what people are saying... *headdesk*
@Nate: I... I kind of find it hard to believe that all proper Christian people who are getting married solely do so (or should do so) to get an outlet for their sexual desires. I dunno, maybe I'm just extremely innocent or something, but I feel like those Christian couples I know aren't together just because they can't control themselves. Lots of them got together without even actively seeking a longtime sexual mate, but because they met through school or church or whatever, and they developed Something; it wasn't planned or anything, like "I'm feeling kind of guilty about That, better do something about it quick!"
@bakura_fan: Like I said, I don't really mind if people get a little physical, but if I do get married, I want it to be Platonic-- not friendship, the way lots of people see Platonic Love, but "chaste but passionate love, based not on lack of interest but on spiritual transmutation of the sex force, opening up vast expanses of subtler enjoyments than sex." (All right, it might also have some "lack of interest" factors in my case simply because I don't really find physical intimacy all that interesting.) I think there are actions that are more eloquent than kissing or sex in portraying one's love for another person.

[bakura_fan]

@bakura_fan: Like I said, I don't really mind if people get a little physical, but if I do get married, I want it to be Platonic-- not friendship, the way lots of people see Platonic Love, but "chaste but passionate love, based not on lack of interest but on spiritual transmutation of the sex force, opening up vast expanses of subtler enjoyments than sex." (All right, it might also have some "lack of interest" factors in my case simply because I don't really find physical intimacy all that interesting.) I think there are actions that are more eloquent than kissing or sex in portraying one's love for another person.

ok. well, no offense, but if you plan on later getting married and having no physical contact or very limited physical contact...then you should not get married at all. When people get married, they are supposed to become one, and I might be reading you wrong, but it sounds like you really aren't interested in that sort of relationship.

Edit: I think what Nate meant by the sexual thing is that for the people who are interested in sex and can't help but have a desire for it (since it is God given to us), that they should marry *the person that God gives to them* so that they don't fall into sexual sin. But for people who have no interest in sex and have no problems in it, then they have no need to worry about sexual issues. I don't think he meant that that's why we should marry, for the sex that is. But, because God knows our needs better than we do, if you need to be in a married relationship He will send that one person to you. That's why we're supposed to trust Him in everything. Sorry if I rambled there for a bit...

[minakichan]

I'm speaking in a theoretical sense. I do that a lot =D Personally, no, I don't have an interest in getting married anyway; I'm just saying all of this because 1) I like to argue, and 2) I honestly do believe that marriages can work without sexual intimacy (and that people should not be restricted from marriage just because they cannot have sexual intimacy, like the examples I gave). If, on the day before my wedding, our car crashes and my spouse gets crazy-seriously injured before we can get to the airport to go on our honeymoon, it's not like I should break off the engagement, right?

[bakura_fan]

...no. you shouldn't. And I'm not saying that marriages can't work without sex...but to me it sounded like you were saying that it wasn't necessary in any marital relationship. And of course to me I then have to ask...then why did God make it? Why do we reproduce that way? Why do people enjoy all that stuff if it's not necessary? =_= anyway...I think we wandered from the topic a bit...

[minakichan]

Nonono, I'm saying more like, I don't believe that all marriages MUST involve kissing and sex, IF THEY DON'T IT'S NOT MARRIAGE kind of thing. Heh. Let me think of a bad analogy (hold on, it's coming to me...).

See, the thing is, I've gotten into a debate with someone else before, who told me that marriage was about having children, and that if you didn't have kids, it was pointless; you get married because you want to have kids, but you don't want to have them outside of marriage because that's wrong. I just didn't agree at all; I think that you definitely shouldn't have kids outside of marriage, and that people who marry and start a family are great-- it's nice to have a happy little family and raise a child and all-- but I don't think that YOU MUST HAVE KIDS IF YOU WANT TO GET MARRIED. There are people physically incapable (oh, there's the word again) of bearing or fathering children. This reaction I had here was kind of similar to that, to me (kinda?).

UM SO YEAH, BACK TO THE TOPIC, I'M NOT KISSING NOBODY BEFORE I GET MARRIED. <_<;

[bakura_fan]

Nonono, I'm saying more like, I don't believe that all marriages MUST involve kissing and sex, IF THEY DON'T IT'S NOT MARRIAGE kind of thing. Heh. Let me think of a bad analogy (hold on, it's coming to me...).

See, the thing is, I've gotten into a debate with someone else before, who told me that marriage was about having children, and that if you didn't have kids, it was pointless; you get married because you want to have kids, but you don't want to have them outside of marriage because that's wrong. I just didn't agree at all; I think that you definitely shouldn't have kids outside of marriage, and that people who marry and start a family are great-- it's nice to have a happy little family and raise a child and all-- but I don't think that YOU MUST HAVE KIDS IF YOU WANT TO GET MARRIED. There are people physically incapable (oh, there's the word again) of bearing or fathering children. This reaction I had here was kind of similar to that, to me (kinda?).

UM SO YEAH, BACK TO THE TOPIC, I'M NOT KISSING NOBODY BEFORE I GET MARRIED. <_<;

ok. that point there made a ton more sense than what you had said before. ^^, yeah...kids...not yet...nope.

Anyway, I've already stated my kissing thing before marriage...so yeah. I think I have no further need to post here unless somone asks a question of me.

[Warrior 4 Jesus]

I've met plenty of people who think about sex too much, but never someone who thinks about it too little... until now (lol).

You have your convictions mate, but maybe you should just be a nun.
I know, that being a guy, having sex outside marriage is wrong, but that it's right within the confines of marriage - we all know that.
But to deny your theoretical husband from intimacy? There's no point marrying.

[minakichan]

Heh, that'd be a fun wedding night.

"All right honey, I've done my best and resisted my insurmountable urges for years, saving myself until marriage like I now I should, but now that you're my wife, we can finally take the next step together!"
"Uh, actually..."

I have ridiculously, ridiculously unrealistic standards. I don't want to get married unless I can find someone who, among other things, also isn't interested in sex. I'm not going to say I'm a chaste and innocent nun (I'm not) (and at any rate, nun != doctor/lawyer/engineer/businesswoman; my stereotypical Asian parents would disown me =D). I love <s>smutty</s> romantic shoujo manga like it's a crime, but I just don't have any real-world interest in it; it's like, I also love thriller manga about corporate (pharmaceutical) conspiracies and doomsday alien viruses and fugitives escaping corrupt political authorities, but I sure don't want that in real life.

[K. Ayato]

In other words, hon, you're not ready for investing time in romantic relationships. You're still young. Give it some time. If you're not ready, you're not ready.

[Warrior 4 Jesus]

All I can say is, 'good luck' then, because you'll have trouble finding a guy.

[K. Ayato]

You said it, Tintin. You know what happens when a man feels he doesn't get enough physical intimacy from his wife. I hope you fully understand the importance of sex in marriage, minakichan. Maybe not right away, but eventually.

[Mr. SmartyPants]

Hey now, let's not call her out and make it seem like she's some sort of weirdo or anything. =\

Minaki, yeah your situation is different than most, but maybe one day... your standards will change? Who knows. ^^;;

[minakichan]

Heh. I'll get back to you guys in 20 years.

Yes, I am aware that it's possible that I could be a late bloomer-- people have called me too innocent and naive (they've also called me evil; I feel like these are kind of contradictory). (But what else is left to bloom? I've uh, gone through puberty already...) I do think, however, that there isn't necessarily something wrong or unnatural about not caring about sex, even as a mature adult-- there are still lots of people who never have that interest their whole lives. Among married couples? I dunno, this is a guess, but you know, I'm sure there've been couples who had no interest in having children, and before birth control ever existed (because I know some couples only think of sex as the way to have children), so wouldn't you think that they're probably not having sex?

[mechana2015]

I'm sure there've been couples who had no interest in having children, and before birth control ever existed (because I know some couples only think of sex as the way to have children), so wouldn't you think that they're probably not having sex?

Unlikely, since marriage, until very recent history, was the only place TO have children without becoming a pariah in the western world. (Ever read the scarlet letter?) The best thing one could do (if uninterested) was to stay unmarried, really. On the note of birth control... its been around since at least the 1500s in some form, and has been dated back as far as ancient egypt.

A secondary factor is that couples were often considered shameful if they DIDN'T have children, as recorded from the bible all the way up into recent popular culture, partially due to cultural issues with carrying on bloodlines and whatnot. The accepted childless couple is actually a fairly recent cultural invention, to my knowledge.

Pregnancy prevention AND pregnancy assistance have both been around for a very long time.

That being said.

It is POSSIBLE to have no interest in sex or physical contact, and get married successfully, but it is HIGHLY unlikely as one would have to find someone of the opposite sex, interested in the opposite sex, with the same preferences for a lack of physical contact (which as of yet I have never seen in the male population). The emotional ties that physical contact forms have been shown to be CRITICAL to successful marriage on a psychological level, and it would be highly atypical for such a thing to occur.

[Nate]

I do think, however, that there isn't necessarily something wrong or unnatural about not caring about sex, even as a mature adult-- there are still lots of people who never have that interest their whole lives.

Yes, they're called asexuals. You're correct in the assumption that it isn't wrong. As I said before, Paul said that he wished everyone could be like him, not getting married so that they could focus on pleasing God, rather than a human partner. I disagree with him slightly on that point though]I dunno, this is a guess, but you know, I'm sure there've been couples who had no interest in having children, and before birth control ever existed (because I know some couples only think of sex as the way to have children), so wouldn't you think that they're probably not having sex?[/QUOTE]
I seriously doubt it for the reasons mech stated. Remember that having children was so important in biblical times that if a man died without fathering a child, his brother was forced to impregnate the widow to continue the bloodline (see the story of Onan). Also remember what the Bible says:

Lo, children are an heritage of the LORD:
and the fruit of the womb is his reward.
As arrows are in the hand of a mighty man;
so are children of the youth.
Happy is the man that hath his quiver full of them:
they shall not be ashamed,
but they shall speak with the enemies in the gate.

From Psalm 127, this is the very verse that started the heinous "Quiverfull" movement whose purpose is to turn women into baby factories. Also remember God's first commandment to Adam and Eve was "be fruitful and multiply," which some argue is a commandment still in effect today. I don't believe that, but some do.

Anyway, my point is that not having children in the Bible was considered to be shameful and actually the worst thing that could happen to a man, dying before he could mate. We don't see it that way anymore due to a change in the moral fabric of our country, as well as a real lack of need to have more people in the world (we've already got billions).

Again, I don't think anyone here is saying it's wrong to not have children or not feel sexually attracted to anyone. Just that it is uncommon, and it IS unnatural (at least according to the Bible).

[Momo-P]

Unlikely, since marriage, until very recent history, was the only place TO have children without becoming a pariah in the western world. (Ever read the scarlet letter?) The best thing one could do (if uninterested) was to stay unmarried, really. On the note of birth control... its been around since at least the 1500s in some form, and has been dated back as far as ancient egypt.

Except isn't that wrong?

I don't want children (only child) and neither does my boyfriend (only child). While some may argue we're too young to consider marriage, it's not like we haven't thought of it and even my parents have brought it up. So...what? We're full of passion for each other and we get married. But then we go to have sex and we can't?

If I don't marry I'm doing something wrong, but if I do get married, I'll still be doing something wrong. Hence forth I can't help but wonder if not having kids is so evil. Otherwise why would God put certain people in a situation where they're pretty much sinning both ways?

[mechana2015]

Except isn't that wrong?

I don't want children (only child) and neither does my boyfriend (only child). While some may argue we're too young to consider marriage, it's not like we haven't thought of it and even my parents have brought it up. So...what? We're full of passion for each other and we get married. But then we go to have sex and we can't?

If I don't marry I'm doing something wrong, but if I do get married, I'll still be doing something wrong. Hence forth I can't help but wonder if not having kids is so evil. Otherwise why would God put certain people in a situation where they're pretty much sinning both ways?

You missed part of the statement with that highlight. I'll seperate it out for you.

UNTIL RECENT HISTORY

The cultural push to have children once married has decreased SIGNIFICANTLY. The statement you highlighted was (and I stated so) a historical factor in biblical times up until the early nineteen-hundreds (1920's or so). If people were married in those times (aka. the past, not now, etc.), and did not produce a child it was considered disgraceful, or that there was something wrong with the participants spiritually or otherwise, and prooducing a child out of wedlock was somewhere between executable crime and something to get thrown out of town for (Scarlet Letter, see Nates post for the Biblical historical context).

NOW (current day, 20xx period, etc.) it is pretty much acceptable to not have children in a marriage, and in a lot of cases considered prudent if one feels that they are not psycologically financially or physically capeable of having children.

Other than catholicism (in a way) and the quiver-full movement, I don't know of any church that states that having relations, and not producing children is related to any religeous endeavour, or even associated with sin. Nowadays it is commonly agreed upon that some people do not have children. It's a little different than what our parents generation grew up with, but it is accepted, in and out of church, that some people choose not to, or can not have children.

[Shao Feng-Li]

Birth control is merely man trying to play God again. Don't do it. God will or He will not give you kids ;P So either way, don't worry about kids. If you have kids, God will enable you to provide for them, with whatever they need.

And as long as there have been humans since Adam and Eve got kicked out of the garden, there has been birth control of some kind, heh.

[Mave]

Wow, this thread sure has wandered off to different realms.

Being another who is saving the first kiss for my wedding day, I will also say that I hope for my married life to include great and meaningful physical intimacy, unless there are restrictions such as medical conditions.

I would imagine that sex shouldn't dominant the whole relationship (even when married, there are time where we have to exercise self-control) but it shouldn't be excluded completely either. I believe sex is God's blessing to us to 1) bring husband and wife closer emotionally/spiritually/physically and 2) to allow the married couple to have kids (kids are a joy to some of us XD).

As for kids, that's your choice. My feelings about kids have changed across the years recently though. I would like to be a mother but I'm not sure how and when - I'll leave it up to God to take care of that.

[Ashley]

Birth control is merely man trying to play God again. Don't do it.

There are some people who need to take birth control for medical, non-sexual reasons, such as a very common disorder called Polycystic Ovarian Syndrome which effects up to 30% of women.

And I'm just curious, and if necessary PM me your reply: say there are two couples. One who is a very prosperous family and have chosen not to have children; the other a very poor couple with so many children they live in abject poverty and starvation. Which couple is the worse, spiritually?

[minakichan]

Birth control is merely man trying to play God again. Don't do it.

I was just giving an example. And

There are some people who need to take birth control for medical, non-sexual reasons

*waves* Yep, actually, my doctor suggested that I take birth control pills too, since I have a really terrible hormonal imbalance, but I decided not to because my symptoms are actually pretty nice ^^

[Shao Feng-Li]

There are some people who need to take birth control for medical, non-sexual reasons, such as a very common disorder called Polycystic Ovarian Syndrome which effects up to 30% of women.

And I'm just curious, and if necessary PM me your reply: say there are two couples. One who is a very prosperous family and have chosen not to have children; the other a very poor couple with so many children they live in abject poverty and starvation. Which couple is the worse, spiritually?

You do bring up a tough point. But the same could have also happened with birth control. God will give you what He will give up and it doesn't matter what you try to do. Sleep together every night, and you could never have kids. Do it once and have triplets. (Obviously if you never have contact with your spouse, you won't have any kids, but... yeah right.)

On a side note, I can kinda understand taking it for the hormonal part, if you're not married... But, seen the side effects for the pills? Heart attack and stroke risk? I'd rather have a normal period XD

[Warrior 4 Jesus]

Not all drugs are bad. God can use some of them to help us with our diseases, illnesses, sickness.
That is not playing God.

[minakichan]

On a side note, I can kinda understand taking it for the hormonal part, if you're not married... But, seen the side effects for the pills? Heart attack and stroke risk? I'd rather have a normal period XD

Uh, I knew a girl who had a period about once a WEEK. It was so bad that she could barely function in school and she had real emotional issues. I'm not kidding. Birth control pills helped her get her life back, and now she doesn't have the issue at all. I definitely would have done the same thing in her place.