Am I saved? >.>

[Animus Seed]

Everyone, please keep me in prayer. I go to a great Christian school and a great honours program, but in our general ed class on Medieval and Renaissance theology, we've been studying Calvinism, and it scares me.

Something Calvin says is that, even if you love God, God doesn't have to love you back.

I'm scared. What if God hates me?

I almost want to become an atheist now... except I've seen too much. I *know* there's a God; it's impossible for me to think there isn't one. And even if God hates me, I can't bring myself to hate Him. He's too good, and pure, and beautiful for me to hate Him.

Bah. It's all very confusing. I want to go back to Sunday School and when I didn't have to worry about such things.

[Sheenar]

Animus,

God does NOT hate you. God loves you. God Himself is love.


Verses on God's love for us:

John 3:16
Romans 5:8
Ephesians 2:1-10
Isaiah 40:11
Isaiah 43


http://www.e-devotionals.org/Verses/veGodsLoveForUs.htm
http://www.dougbrittonbooks.com/onlinebiblestudies-selfworthandrespect/godsloveforusandgodsloveforme.asp


This last link is to a devotional about God's love.

Know this: God is with you. He will never leave you. He loves you. He gave His Son to pay for your sins. That is the ultimate example of love!

I pray that you will realize just how treasured, valued, and loved you are in the Father's eyes!!

[Momo-P]

I'm totally praying for you Animus. It's been years, but I still remember studying that stuff in my freshmen year of highschool. It really messed with my head, so I'm not surprised it does with yours as well.

Sheenar's right though. I mean...just think of Jesus for pete's sake! Humans who love each other dearly won't even die for each other...and that sacrifice was to all humans who accept it. How could that be anything but love?

[Nate]

I won't state my feelings on Calvinism, but, I will say this. The bible mentions very, VERY few people that God hates. Only a handful. You also have to remember, the only time it's mentioned of God hating people, is in the OT, before Christ's sacrifice to redeem us.

And would God have sent His only Son to die for you if He didn't love you? Think about that for a while. o.o

I realize words don't help sometimes, and this may be one of those times. Even so, I hope you feel better soon. ^^

[K. Ayato]

It's not unusual to start questioning and having some doubts regarding what you believe when you hear a new form of doctrine in a classroom setting. If you have doubts, take them up in prayer and shove your nose into the Word. God does not and cannot lie, and neither does He fail to keep His promises to us.

Hang in there, bro.

[Gabriel 9.0]

God only hates sin, he sent his son to give you and everybody a second chance at life and to help you live accordingly to God's authority and his son's testimony.

God loves you, don't think he hates you.
If he hated everyone he wouldn't have sent his son to die for our sins.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 3:17
For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

[Animus Seed]

Animus,

God does NOT hate you. God loves you. God Himself is love.


Verses on God's love for us:

John 3:16
Romans 5:8
Ephesians 2:1-10
Isaiah 40:11
Isaiah 43


http://www.e-devotionals.org/Verses/veGodsLoveForUs.htm
http://www.dougbrittonbooks.com/onlinebiblestudies-selfworthandrespect/godsloveforusandgodsloveforme.asp


This last link is to a devotional about God's love.

Know this: God is with you. He will never leave you. He loves you. He gave His Son to pay for your sins. That is the ultimate example of love!

I pray that you will realize just how treasured, valued, and loved you are in the Father's eyes!!

The tricky thing about Calvinism, though, is that those verses are true, but don't apply to everyone. Only the ones God's elected. So if I'm not elect, those verses, however beautiful, don't apply... :\

[Momo-P]

Ya, but isn't there a problem with that? I mean...according to Calvinisim, this verse is true, correct?

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Uh...what about the "whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life" part? WHOSOEVER BELIEVETH.

If God hand picked us, what about the ones He didn't pick, but have accepted Him? This verse says whoever believes is saved, it says nothing about "whoever believes and was hand picked by God is saved".

[ShiroiHikari]

Yeah, I don't want to get into some heated, long-winded theological debate, but to say that God plays pick-and-choose is kinda un-biblical.

God doesn't have to love us, but He does, and that's what's so amazing about it. He doesn't love the same way we do. Our feelings waver and are often based on conditions, but He loves us all, all the time, even when we're acting like idiots. Like others said, if He hated all of us-- or even just one of us --He would not have sacrificed his only Son for us.

Anyone who comes to Christ will be saved. You don't have to pass a test or meet any requirements first-- all you have to do is confess your sins and ask Christ to enter your life.

[josh_manga]

I hope I don't fall too far of topic here.
People to defend the doctrine of election strictly (there are more than Calvinists) will say one of two things that I've heard: The first, that free will is a man made doctrine, and secondly, that free will takes away from God's sovreignty. But while there may be no literal scriptural reference to free will, there is also no literal scriptural reference to the Trinity, which Christian denominations believe in anyway. There is scriptural evidence of the existence of God as a Trinity, just as there is scriptural evidence of man having the free will to choose salvation. Theological debate is all well and good, but in the end you have to ask the question: Does this match reality? I believe in God's election of the saints, but I also belive in free will of the saints. People will take one or two verses and make a whole theological point off of it. Read Romans 8, I would say the whole chapter, to get the context, but specifically verse 29 "For whom He did forknow, He also did predistinate to be conformed to the image of His Son..." Also read verse 30.
I am always wary of those who teach a doctrine of God's hate. Yes, God hates sin, He is perfect, and imperfection cannot stand in His presence, but that is why He perfects us. Why would He perfect a creation that He hates? Why would Jesus die for people He hates? Always look at scripture as a whole, not in pieces, or you will be confused, and then you will be more easily deceived by satan's lies. Read Matthew 12:46-50, and Luke 8:19-21. These talk about who Jesus considers His family. If you do these things, you will be called His brother. Can God hate a child of His own? No more than He could hate Jesus.
Hope I haven't added to the confusion. I will be praying for you. The simplest and best thing I can tell you is this; have faith in God and Jesus Christ, do not falter, the storm is swirling around you, but keep your eyes on Jesus. You do not face this alone, and when your faith and strength can no longer carry you, God will.

[RedMage]

*Sigh*

You've either misunderstood Calvin's doctrine or had it misrepresented to you. Don't take that as a putdown, my sighing is out of sadness to see someone so troubled about things God never meant for us to have to worry about.

John 6:37:

"All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out."

Those who come to Christ are those the Father gives to him; that's the doctrine of election. But the second part of the verse states that the one who comes to Christ will certainly not be cast out!

There is no danger at all that anyone will try to come to Christ and be rejected because he or she is not elect and Jesus therefore "doesn't love them."

Calvinists and those who subscribe to the doctrine of election, such as myself, would say that the very fact that you believed in Christ means that you are among the elect. If you don't subscribe to the doctrine of election, then the whole thing is immaterial anyway.

To sum up, therefore: be assured, Animus Seed, that if you accepted Jesus into your heart as your Lord and Savior, you're in no danger whatsoever of Him rejecting you or not loving you.

[Danyasaur]

I won't dare touch on any theological beliefs. I only want to leave you with a verse that has helped me throughout my life concerning God's love for me (And I'm going to put some parts in bold for you), as well as a few, short words.
It's one of my favorite scriptures:

Romans 8:35-39 (NIV)

'Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? As it is written:
"For your sake we face death all day long;
we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered." No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.'

I hope it helps you as it helps me. I've sometimes broke down crying (Unworthy, yet extremely happy tears) because I had a revelation of God's love for me, and for others, and of the fact that I realized I would never, ever, under any circumstances be able to get away from God's love.

It says in God's Word, that He IS love (1 John 4:16). Being love, I'd dare to say that He can't love you any LESS, or any MORE. He's just amazing like that.

I hope I've not added any confusion or such, I just felt compelled to leave this.

God bless.

[AsianBlossom]

Hey, RedMage? I don't want to start any debates, but I've got a question: suppose the whole world suddenly believed in God and accepted Jesus as their savior. Would the whole world then become part of the elect? (Just curious because of the Bible verse you posted and explained.)

And Animus, just trust that God loves you no matter what. Even when you stumble, He's always there waiting for you to get up, and He'll even help you if necessary. So rest assured that you're loved, because God loves the sinner and hates the sin.

[josh_manga]

Not to speak for RedMage, but the scripture states that God forknows all, and that which He forknows He also predestines, and those who He predestines, He also calls.
If the whole world were to believe in God, He would certainly know of it beforehand, and would therefore predestinate them, and call them to Himself. (Rom 8) I wasn't raised in a church or family that taught election, but I think this is basically what it is speaking about. Someone please correct me if i am wrong!
Sadly, an example of humanity's selfish free will, in Revelation (somewhere) it talks about a time when God will reign on earth, and there will still be those who refuse to believe or serve Him. Sorry i don't have the reference for that.

Now that i've written all of this, the thought occurs to me that it might be a better discussion in either a different forum thread, or a pm, not a prayer request thread. Dissention and confusion seldom produce healing.

God bless you all,
josh.

[RedMage]

Josh's post answers your question pretty well, AsianBlossom. However, don't misunderstand and think that the act of believing causes a person to "become" elect. Belief simply demonstrates that person was among the elect who God sovereignly chose and drew to Himself.

Sadly, we know that there will never be a time when the whole world trust Jesus as Savior.

[josh_manga]

Tying this theological discussion about election and predestination back into the main focus of this thread: God forknew everything before time began, every sin and every good deed, every believer and every spiritual rebel. He even forknew the fall of Adam and Eve, yet He chose to create them anyway, knowing fully well what it would lead to, the painful torture and death of His Son, Jesus. Why would God choose to do all of this, even though it causes pain to Himself? Two reasons that I see, and they are these. That all of creation should speak glory and honor to His holy name, and for God to show His love, not hate. So fear not Animus Seed, you are fearfully and wonderfully made, made by a God who loves His creation, you.

[Netbug009]

God does not hate you, no matter what your position is right now.

[12praiseGOD]

Animus GOD doesn't hate you infact I can't remeber where in the Bible it is but there is a verse that says something like this...No matter if you are a gentile, Jew, Greek, or whatever else as long as you believe that Jesus came to earth, lived, died and was resurrected for us you will be saved!
so don't stress it...GOD loves you no matter what...remember HE can see into each one of our hearts and despite all the nasty things in it HE still loves us.
Also in another verse...look up where it is later....it says that GOD is not distant and angry but the complete expression of love. hold on Animus...
GOD IS WITH YOU!!!
GOD BLESS YOU!!!! =)

[12praiseGOD]

k I looked up some verses that may help you out...
1John 4: 9
" In this the love of GOD was manifested toward us, that GOD has sent HIS only begotten Son in to the world, that we might live through Him." -NKJV
1John 4:10
" In this is love, not that we loved GOD, but that HE loves us and sent HIS Son to be the propitiation for our sins."-NKJV

[Momo-P]

Tying this theological discussion about election and predestination back into the main focus of this thread: God forknew everything before time began, every sin and every good deed, every believer and every spiritual rebel. He even forknew the fall of Adam and Eve, yet He chose to create them anyway, knowing fully well what it would lead to, the painful torture and death of His Son, Jesus. Why would God choose to do all of this, even though it causes pain to Himself? Two reasons that I see, and they are these. That all of creation should speak glory and honor to His holy name, and for God to show His love, not hate. So fear not Animus Seed, you are fearfully and wonderfully made, made by a God who loves His creation, you.

I don't want to steer this thread off somewhere else, but now it got me thinking.

I believe God obviously knew what would happen before He created Adam and Eve, but all this "pre-chosen stuff" confuses me. I always assumed that, although God KNOWS who will believe in Him and who won't, it's not a case of Him choosing. Instead I thought God gave us free will to choose, but despite allowing us to choose...He already knew the outcome. It wasn't a case of Him sitting on His throne and pointing at various people He liked, the people got to pick, but He already knew before hand anyways.

Or am I wrong? Sorry for going off again, but now this is screwing with my head and I ain't liking it. If I said something wrong please correct and forgive me, but ugh...x_x Now I feel like I wasn't chosen myself and am worrying for my boyfriend too. I mean, I believe and accept God and so does he, so...if I understand it right...we're the "elect" or whatever? I mean, I dunno if I totally believe in the elect thing, but in the case it was true, it doesn't matter because the point is that we believe so we were chosen or...something like that? ^^; Sorry, threads like these always get me worrying myself.

[josh_manga]

Momo, i'll pm you, so we don't veer off anymore here.

[SP1]

I resolve this dilemma in Romans about who is chosen like this:

1) For sin to exist, free will must exist. There can be no sin in the absence of free will, because if we have no free will, then we are just following a command string that God created and if we err, it's God's fault. Sort of like when you drop a smart bomb on someone. The bomb kills people, but the bomb isn't guilty - it's the person who dropped it.

2) Give that free will must exist, then that means we can change our minds and, potentially, whatever destiny we inherited.

3) God is clearly a being that is beyond our comprehension. He may very well reside apart (or perhaps irrespective of) the dimension of time. He has no beginning or end. Now, personally, I take this to mean that God might very well know what choices we are going to make. He might influence these choices by arranging who we meet or some circumstance. He knows how things are going to come out. However, being outside of time and rather omniscient, He knows all this at the same instant. It's not like God is rolling dice on how you are going to do at the "beginning" of your life and whether you are going to get into heaven or not. Rather, He just sees us as a complete whole lifetime all at once.

Just my $0.02

Praying for you to feel God's love and clear your head a bit.

[josh_manga]

Thank you for the clarifying post SP1, but i still feel this should belong in either a separate thread, or private messages. But never mind me, i'm not a mod.

Does anyone else have any scriptural encouragment for our brother, or perhaps a posted prayer?

[Sheenar]

9This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son[b] into the world that we might live through him. 10This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for[c] our sins.
1 John 4:9-10

[12praiseGOD]

I also think those verses are beautifull Sheenar....here are some more

" GOD commendeth his love towaed us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." Romans 5:8

[12praiseGOD]

lets not make it complicated shall we?... in John 3:16 it says

"For GOD so loved the WORLD(not specifing anyone particuraly, meaning all the world and people in it) that He gave his only begotten SON(Jesus Christ), that whosoever(anyone including you) believeth in him shall not perish(go to hell) but have everlasting life(go to heave and live with Him for all eternity)" John 3:16

here is another translation..
"For GOD so loved the World(You) that HE gave his only Son(Jesus Christ), so that whosoever(anyone) believeth in HIM, shall not perish (go to hell) but have everlasting life(go to heaven.)" John 3:16

[AsianBlossom]

I just asked because I was curious as to what you guys believe. But anyways...

Animus, always remember that God loves you; He wants you to love Him in return. Even if it doesn't feel like He's there, He is, and He's watching over you with love, every step of the way.

[Sheenar]

You know what's also cool? Not only does God give us eternal life in Heaven through Christ, He gives us an abundant, full life in His presence and in His Spirit here and now! Because of Christ's sacrifice we can have full fellowship with God --something not possible b/c of the fall of man (that is, until Christ dealt with sin once and for all). That is an amazing example of God's love! He wants to have a relationship with us --to walk with us as He walked with Adam and Eve in the beginning.

Know that God loves you --more fully than any human being ever could --His love is perfect and unconditional --not based on our performance or on what others say about us --His love for us was demonstrated in the cross!

[Sheenar]

Ephesians 3:16-21 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)

Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society
[NIV at IBS] [International Bible Society] [NIV at Zondervan] [Zondervan]

16I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being, 17so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, 18may have power, together with all the saints, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ, 19and to know this love that surpasses knowledge—that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God.

20Now to him who is able to do immeasurably more than all we ask or imagine, according to his power that is at work within us, 21to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever and ever! Amen.

[termyt]

First off, that was a wonderful discussion on predetermination. I am proud of you all. Very well done.

I can understand why Calvin would mess with your head, Animus. Calvin was an important theologian, but he was also a very harsh man. I will not go into the pros and cons of his theology, which goes much deeper than simple predestiny, and instead tell you to seek the truth.

If you earnestly seek the Truth, you will find it. Study God’s word yourself and discuss it with others. The key here is to seek the Truth – God’s truth. Too many people study the Bible to defend their own truth which leads to misinterpreting scripture and a perversion of God’s truth.

I have serious problems with a lot of Calvin’s teachings – most mainstream Christians today do – but some of his teachings also give great insight. He’s worth studying, but always be on guard regardless of who the theologian is. Every doctrine must agree with all scripture to be true, not just a verse here and there. The more you study, the better you will be a detecting BS.

So, I hope you do not lose hope. Do not let any man separate you from God.