(Discovery Channel) the Tomb of Jesus.

[bigsleepj]

Person A Kills Person B. Person A catches wind that person B has risen from the dead. Is it that crazy to think that Person A would lie about person B? How much of a step is it to lie after you kill someone?

Assuming you are responding to my post, I can see that you've either missed entirely what I was objecting to or you are deliberately trying not to reasonably respond to it. I've said my piece, I've made my point, I'll stick by it and I'll leave it at that.

[Debitt]

so as you test the scripture for its infallibility, what is the authority of your life?

don't get me wrong, i think that a spiritual seeker (one who hasn't been saved) that investigating and searching for truth in the bible is definitely a good thing, but once the decision is made to follow Christ, why doubt His word

Because we as Believers have an obligation to be educated about our faith. There is a world of difference between merely believing and testing in order to discover why you believe.

[Cognitive Gear]

Because we as Believers have an obligation to be educated about our faith. There is a world of difference between believing and testing in order to discover why you believe.

Thank you. You get QFT.

[Fish and Chips]

Because we as Believers have an obligation to be educated about our faith. There is a world of difference between merely believing and testing in order to discover why you believe.

Listen to this person, people.

[bigsleepj]

Because we as Believers have an obligation to be educated about our faith. There is a world of difference between merely believing and testing in order to discover why you believe.

*is amazed at Kokoro's wisdom*

[Yeshua-Knight]

so education is a good reason for doubt? i don't think so, is it not possible to know why you believe what you belive without questioning it? it happens in plenty of people on a daily basis, in fact i can tell you why i believe what i believe, it believe that the bible is infallible and that it is the authority over my life because it is the truth, not because it has accurate history, but because it comes from God

we must come to a point and say that the bible either is or is not infallible, that point should be when we accept Christ into our lives and make Him the Lord because if we accept Christ but doubt the bible, then have we really made Christ the Lord over our lives?

and again i ask the question, while you are questioning the bible, what is the authority over your life?

[Fish and Chips]

Is education a good reason for doubt? No.
Is doubt a good reason for education? Certainly.

If you question something, you owe it both to yourself and God to look into, and possibly come back with a better, more concrete view of what you previously though, misconceptions swept to the side, clarity, and revelations. If the Bible is truely infallible, then doubt will give way to greater understanding; that is, if that's what you're actually aiming for.

To paraphrase Galileo, it is unthinkable that the God who endowed us with reasoning capacity would want us to forgo its use.

[Debitt]

so education is a good reason for doubt? i don't think so

There was never a question of doubt - the issue here is the desire to discover more. There's such a huge taboo on questioning God or asking Him "Why?" because it's interpreted as doubt. But it isn't because we doubt Him. It's because we as Christians have been given the desire to discover as much as we can about Him. If futher knowledge of the Lord's ways can be discovered by scrutinizing our faith through philosophy, history, science, or what have you, then what is so wrong about doing so?

[Roy Mustang]

This attitude, to me, seems more like you're afraid that some traditional belief might be disproved.

Personally, I can't believe in something if I'm not willing to question it.

I have question the beliefs in my church, but I will not qustion what is in the bible.

But I tell you this, I have walk a path of faith on stones. I was born with a bad heart that I had a 50% change of living, when I was born.

I found out that I had aids at the age of 13 from bad blood giving to me from heart surgery. I had the doctors tell me at the age of 14, that I only had six months to live and I'm still here today.

There is alot that I can't understand or put a finger on a why and because of that. I will not question my faith after all the stuff that I had to deal with.


So, don't you dare say stuff like that to me again, ever!

Yeah, I know this going offtopic, but I want to give my reason for why I don't question what's in the bible.

Col. Roy Mustang

[Yeshua-Knight]

here's the thing, why should God give us a reason, is our knowledge of His goodness and His righteousness not good enough? can we not trust that His ways are higher than our ways and his thoughts are higher than our thoughts? can we not learn about the ways of God while keeping the scriptures at the authority of our lives? and by doing so believing their infallibility? it is possible to examine the scriptures and keep faith in them, i myself have done so and it is quite an exploration, but all the while i keep them at the authority of my life, because they are the word of God.

[Nate]

This attitude, to me, seems more like you're afraid that some traditional belief might be disproved.

Bradley already responded above, but I feel compelled to weigh in on this too.

There are certain things I think that can be interpreted different ways in the Bible. To me, those are things like age of the earth, meaning of Song of Solomon, the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, and so on. For these things there is a bit of leeway left depending on what you take the verse to mean or how you believe the context fits into it all.

However, there are certain things that cannot be interpreted different ways. To me, these are things like the Virgin Birth, the crucifixion, the final triumph of God over Satan, and the like. Things that have to be true in order for Christianity to be valid.

The Bible doesn't outright state it, but says that Christ physically resurrected. If He did NOT physically resurrect, and those are indeed His bones in that tomb, our faith is USELESS. We all believe a lie, and we have no hope. These are the words of Paul in 1 Corinthians:

14 And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15 More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile]
That about sums it up. If Christ didn't rise from the dead, our faith is useless, we're liars, and we are to be pitied more than all men. So for our faith to have any meaning, for our lives to MEAN something, those CANNOT be the bones of Christ in there.

This isn't "afraid a traditional belief might be disproved." This is the reality that if those are His bones, our lives are shattered. We have been living for the wrong reasons. This isn't a traditional belief; this is the FOUNDATION of our religion. A traditional belief can be wrong, and oh well. If the foundation is wrong, it completely shatters the religion.

It's not like this is even fear. We would fear it if it had some validity. But the point is it has no validity, for those could be anyone's bones and there's no proof it's Christ's tomb. I don't see what there is to fear by rejecting something that's so obviously wrong outright.

If this was more valid, I'd probably investigate further into it. But this isn't even halfway plausible...and if it WAS halfway plausible we might as well all go find another religion.

EDIT:

here's the thing, why should God give us a reason, is our knowledge of His goodness and His righteousness not good enough?

Jesus didn't have to give proof to Thomas after He was risen, but He did. It's not wrong to question God. Why does everyone think God has to be all secretive and stuff and that it's wrong to question Him? His ways aren't our ways, but it never says "Shut up or you'll get zapped if you ask Him why."

[Yeshua-Knight]

i wasn't saying that God is secretive, just that he doesn't have to answer our "why's"

it's just that i'm more of the mindset to ask "what" rather than "why" as in "what is the Lord doing in this?" or "what is the Lord trying to teach me?"

it's like everytime i see or hear someone ask God "why" it's usually that they're whining about some negative thing that's happened to them without any regard to the will of God, now i'm not gonna say it's wrong to ask "why" because its true that there's nothing wrong with it, but at the same time, aren't there more important questions to ask?

[bigsleepj]

It's not wrong to question God. Why does everyone think God has to be all secretive and stuff and that it's wrong to question Him? His ways aren't our ways, but it never says "Shut up or you'll get zapped if you ask Him why."

Very true. Job questioned God continously and demanded an answer, and in the end God certainly did not 'zap' him, but told his dogmatic friends that "ye have not spoken of me the thing that is right, as my servant Job hath."

[Debitt]

i wasn't saying that God is secretive, just that he doesn't have to answer our "why's"

He does not have to answer, but it's fair to say that He will, even if we have to wait until new heaven and new earth. Until the time for Him to answer comes, though, I have little doubt that He smiles upon our efforts to seek out His wisdom.

EDIT: And you know, now that I think of it, why would He not want us to? They say you can lead a horse to water, and we're led towards wisdom every day, but unless we want to know the truth, there's no way we'd be able to attain it.

[Yeshua-Knight]

ah, but God returned the inquisition with one of His own the humbled Job even further, did it not?

edit: i'm not saying that we shouldn't seek to learn truth, what i'm saying is to keep the word of God at the authority of our lives, it is possible to do so and gain truth from it

[Joshua Christopher]

I guess we're all just going to have to agree to disagree. This is going nowhere but in circles.

[bigsleepj]

ah, but God returned the inquisition with one of His own the humbled Job even further, did it not?

And your point is...? Yes, God implied through the inquisition that He knew what He was doing, and still He did not zap / punish him for daring to question His ways, nor did he tell Him not to ask questions at all. Certainly He humbled Job, but even in humbling He commended him, while Jobs friends, who did not question and were dogmatic in their faith, were reprimanded (a move which must have puzzled them for a time).

Edit]I guess we're all just going to have to agree to disagree. This is going nowhere but in circles.[/quote]

Sadly that's usually the nature of all on-line debates.

[Cognitive Gear]

edit: i'm not saying that we shouldn't seek to learn truth, what i'm saying is to keep the word of God at the authority of our lives, it is possible to do so and gain truth from it

If you are indeed saying this, then I believe we agree. It is possible to keep it in authority and test it.

I would also like to point out that there are several times in scripture where the mind (ie: the thing that uses logic) is considered part of the equation for faith. One of which is Matthew 22:7. Jesus tells us to, "love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, with all thy soul, and with all thy mind."The mind is a part of it.

In Acts 18:4 Paul used reasoning and the scriptures in the synagogue to show God's truth. You can't reason without asking some questions.

In Luke 24:39 Jesus gives the apostles physical proof that he was risen. He didn't have to, but He did.

There are certainly more to be found.

As far as more important questions to ask, I think it depends on what the Lord is calling you to do. The fact that I have tested the scriptures with God given logic has defended my God more times than I can recall. When you befriend people who's only real belief is the scientific method you have to be able to give them logical arguments backed by evidence about your faith.

[macguy]

The main problem I see is that Christians can be silly sometimes in rejecting anything that conflicts with what they've been taught.

But then again, it's the atheists and agnostics who want to conflict with what has been presented. We're not discussing ridiculous probabilities here because there's literally no chance. My links sufficiently refuted every little detail of this so-called evidence. Until further notice, we weren't jumping to conclusions just because it contradicts our faith. In fact, faith is by definition a sense of trust and knowledge although many try to obscure this definition by claiming that we believe blindly. So in essence, I would agree with you but I'm not disbelieving the claim because the Bible says so alone but on the basis of the evidence itself. The more attacks that threaten the Scripture's authority then the more we can trust it.

Did you know that some people used to believe the earth was flat? Yup, people did. And they ended up being wrong.

What is this in relation to? The christians?

The same line of thinking ought to be applied to what we believe. Don't just discount something just because it conflicts with what you believe--learn about it. If ultimately it ends up being wrong, you're in good shape.

It is indeed true that we change our beliefs but the problem with the flat earth idea is that there was not much evidence but merely an assumption. We already understand the problem with underlying assumptions which is still everywhere. Science is always changing so we should expect this frequent change in knowledge because they haven't reached absolute truth.

Christians, on the other hand, claim to have absolute truth but they don't understand this truth fully. So it may be possible that the story of Jesus can be interpreted differently but that seems way off for now. There's always light in the path of darkness. Let's trust in the Lord and be strong with armor. We don't know everything but the evidence for God's Word is there for those in search of it. Thank you for raising an interesting comment. I however still stand strong to what i've said earlier:

For the atheist and agnostic? Sure. The basic idea itself may be plausible but no evidence is in support of it! As i said, there are many assumptions and this is nothing new. People have thought that Jesus had a tomb since the 1980's while others think that the disciples stole Jesus's body. Others think it's merely a myth (convincing story). I mean, what isn't possible? The only thing for this to be plausible is for there to be evidence in support of it. For the christian, this is just another one of those arguments in attempt to debunk christianity. I've debated many things and atheists will take ANY route to destroy christianity. Whoops, these topics can easily jump to theology but these are the basics and no theology has been presented. At least I don't think so...

[Nate]

Eh, last post for tonight.

What is this in relation to? The christians?

Yeah, his statement was in reference to Christianity. Actually for a long time, it was held as dogma in the Church that the world was flat and that the earth was the center of the universe. When scientists tried to refute these as false, they were branded as heretics.

By the way, the beliefs of geocentrism and flat earth WERE supported with Scripture, it's just that the Church was interpreting those passages incorrectly. This proves how interpretation can vastly change what a passage means, and why I am an OEC.

Science is always changing so we should expect this frequent change in knowledge because they haven't reached absolute truth.

Science is always changing, but that's because we gain new knowledge each day, and sometimes when we come across that knowledge it contradicts with earlier theories. This is why scientists are constantly experimenting, and why one scientist who performs one experiment isn't a standard. It takes multiple scientists multiple experiments before they put forth a theory, and as always, a theory doesn't say "This is true, period," it merely says "This has yet to be proven false after countless experimentation."

Faith works a bit differently, as there really isn't anything to "test" about it. So science constantly changing isn't a bad thing; it's actually a very good thing.

I also think it's a bit mistaken to think that science cannot reach an absolute truth about the universe simply because some scientists are not Christians. I dunno if that's what you were trying to say, but that's how I interpreted it at least.

[macguy]

Yeah, his statement was in reference to Christianity. Actually for a long time, it was held as dogma in the Church that the world was flat and that the earth was the center of the universe. When scientists tried to refute these as false, they were branded as heretics.

Just as I thought. I've encountered this argument so many times and I am constantly ridiculed as a scientific heretic who still hangs on to a "flat-earth". One question, are you sure that christians widely believed in a flat-earth? I can see what you're saying without an example but Scripture does not teach a flat earth in very clear terms which is a big difference between Jesus and the shape of the earth. As for the age of the earth, that is not of any concern to me in the slightest. I don't care whether it's Old or Young. So as for now, I'll just let science take the stage in this battle. My area of knowledge is in evolution.

[quote]Faith works a bit differently, as there really isn't anything to "test" about it. So science constantly changing isn't a bad thing]

Was the science comment supposed to refute what i said? Because that's what i was essentially saying. Due to this very frequent change in science, it will never reach absolute truth. No, I never said that they can't reach absolute truth because scientists are not christians... Sorry, I am just trying to avoid a philosophical debate so that's why i haven't presented any reasons in support of my stance. The blame is on me for not being clear so don't feel bad or anything

One could argue that "change" increases our knowledge but scientists know a lot better to think that. Thomas Kuhn has brought a serious problem to the thought that science is the ultimate answer and will once be absolute truth. I'd encourage you to read his entire works if there's a library near you. I am saying this because we are going way off topic and has to be discussed another time if this forum allows it. We can always talk about it in PM though or TheologyWeb.

[bigsleepj]

Strange, we all agree that the tomb is not Christ's, and yet we're still arguing.

[macguy]

Haha, yes on a different but a bit similar topic. Some are basically just saying that if this was true then there wouldn't be a threat to the faith either way. Although I don't see why they need to bring it up unless it was true.

[Technomancer]

Just as I thought. I've encountered this argument so many times and I am constantly ridiculed as a scientific heretic who still hangs on to a "flat-earth". One question, are you sure that christians widely believed in a flat-earth?

Most educated Christians would have been well aware that the Earth was a sphere, since this was a commonly accepted fact well before the appearance of Christianity. Of course levels of education may have varied at different times and different places.

I can see what you're saying without an example but Scripture does not teach a flat earth in very clear terms...

While the descriptions are fairly poetic they do reflect the Mesopotamian cosmology (from which the Biblical descriptions were doubtless derived). This was a flat Earth cosmology, so at least a few books of the bible were probably written by someone who adhered to it.

Was the science comment supposed to refute what i said? Because that's what i was essentially saying. Due to this very frequent change in science, it will never reach absolute truth.

Science never makes claims to absolute truth, although it can state that which is false. However, the changing nature of science is hardly a weakness. Our descriptions of the universe become ever closer to the "truth" as we progress. However, in this case (the so-called "Jesus ossury"), the slams on science and scientists are wholly unjustified, since this supposed discovery has no currency whatsoever amongst actual archaeologists. It is a media event, not a scientific one.

[Mithrandir]

Strange, we all agree that the tomb is not Christ's, and yet we're still arguing.

I'm replying to this one for emphasis. I felt it was important to make sure everyone read it.

[Hakaii]

Ok everybody, can we please, please keep away from theology here? I know it's a difficult subject to do so with but please, lets not get this thread locked.

and while I can understand a need to refute the claims made in the show, can we look away from what the movie maker tells us to see and look at the evidence ourselves? Seriously, a new tomb is found that is at least unique. whether it was a lie, a statistical annomaly, the real thing, or just partially real, doesn't anyone see something positive that we can take from this?

and about proving ones faith... No this one video does not change my faith. But it does intrigue me, or at least the concept does anyway. I agree that it is our responcibility to learn as much as possible about what we believe in. By all means, I would love to learn more about Christ beyond the Bible. Just think about it, you knoiw that you have parents. You love them. But if all you knew was that they existed and what they wanted you to do in life and death, wouldn't you seek out as much information as possible? Such as looking through photo albums and such? Well, why not have the same thirst for knowledge about God? I suppose that what I'm trying to say here is; I seek knowledge about God outside the Bible not out of doubt, but out of love for God.

And besides in the "End Times" the whole world is supposed to become a single religion/ nation right? So the way I see it, Steering away from what organized religion tells me and seeking the truth myself seems like a necessity. Not trying to insult anyone here, just stating my rationality.

And again, Please be carefull about how heated things get. I really was hoping for something positive and logical.

[termyt]

But there are people who believe it does. To some science has become a religion to itself, which unfortunately perverts it's real purpose.

At any rate, I believe many of us are speaking about what we perceive this program to be about instead of what it was actually about. Easy enough to do in a culture where our beliefs are constantly under attack, but we should be careful about jumping to conclusions.

So, to clarify, this program in NO WAY intended to claim that Christ was not physically resurrected. You are confusing the resurrection with the ascension.

The Bible indicates that Christ died and rose again. By evidence in the Bible, we can clearly infer that the resurrection was physical. Thomas placed his hand in the wounds of Christ in the clearest example of that. Bur what happens next? After a time, Christ ascends into heaven. Most Christians assume this to be a physical ascension. I certainly do, but only because it makes the most sense, not because there is Biblical evidence to support it.

There are those who believe the ascension was purely spiritual. I guess this boils down to whether you believe that in our own resurrections we will receive spiritual bodies or new physical ones. Is heaven a physical reality or a spiritual one? If it’s a spiritual one, then it is possible that Christ ascended in His spiritual body and may have left his physical one behind to eventually be buried in some tomb somewhere.

Personally, I tend toward the physical resurrection and physical existence in heaven, which leads me to believe this can not be the tomb of Jesus. But I also freely admit that I may be wrong about it, as the nature of the next life has not be made clear to me.

Eh, another long post.

[Mithrandir]

And again, Please be carefull about how heated things get. I really was hoping for something positive and logical.

I hope this doesn't come across as bitter, but given the nature of the thread, and the history some members (who may or may not be posting in this thread), this hope seems to be unfounded optimism, to me. That being said, let's definitely drop the theological debate overtone that we're devolving into.

[Technomancer]

A fairly good article on the subject from a reputable source:
http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?chanID=sa027&articleID=14A3C2E6-E7F2-99DF-37A9AEC98FB0702A

[Fish and Chips]

Nice article. It's all in the statistics.

And why does Jesus always look so depressed in these pictures? Must be all the in-fighting on CAA.