Plastic/Cosmetic Surgery

[Kai Robin]

Says who? Let me tell you something. I like women that are a bit overweight. I like women that have smaller chests.

You see the problem with your statement? Beauty is extremely subjective, as Ryan said. A woman that's a bit plump, if she dieted like crazy and ended up looking like Kate Moss, that would make her extremely unattractive in my eyes.
.

First off, I said for arguments sake, second off..says "who" is pretty much the entirety of the population we live in. Beauty may be extremely subjective, but it has it standards, how else would they hire models for Tres Emme hair products? I think we can all agree on whats beautiful or not without having to pull the philosopher's "well its subjective" statement.

[Nate]

First off, I said for arguments sake,

Fair enough. Still, that's kind of a bizarre generalization to make, same as if I said, "For argument's sake, let's say you stop at green lights." Well, you COULD assume that, but it would fly in the face of logic.

I think we can all agree on whats beautiful or not without having to pull the philosopher's "well its subjective" statement.

Um, nope. Do you know how many people I see say Paris Hilton and Pamela Anderson are hot? I don't think they're hot at all. In fact, I really find them to be extremely ugly.

No, we can't all agree on what's beautiful or not. That's the point, is that beauty is COMPLETELY subjective. I had a friend in the Navy that was married to a woman that everyone talked about behind his back, "Man, how could he marry someone as nasty as that?" But you know what? Despite the fact that everyone else thought she was beyond ugly, he thought she was the most beautiful woman he'd ever seen.

My last girlfriend, when I was dating her, if her face had been bitten off by crocodiles, I still would have found her infinitely more beautiful than any other woman on the planet.

If you can't understand that, well, I pity you.

[Sammy Boy]

To Mave, answering as one of the guys:

[1]. The general principle I live by regarding any kind of operation is: If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

[2]. If my partner wanted to get surgery for cosmestic reasons, I will actually try to talk her out of it. I don't think it is necessary, because when you love a person, you will see past his/her physical appearance. But she sees eye-to-eye with me on this issue, so we don't need to discuss it anyway.

Regarding the double eyelid operation, I do not understand this one. Single eyelid and double eyelids seem irrelevant to me...

For myself, eating well and exercising regularly are worthier pursuits than cosmetic surgery. I just need to exercise more...

[Radical Dreamer]

On the subject of beauty, I totally agree with the position that beauty is in the eye of the beholder and is completely subjective. Just because our pop-culture says that tanned skin, a big chest, and a slim figure is beautiful doesn't mean that the people who don't measure up to those "standards" aren't beautiful. For instance, here in America (and in other European countries), white teeth are more beautiful than yellowed (or even black) teeth. But in certain African tribes, black teeth are like a gem, and are seen as very beautiful. That's kind of an extreme example of perceptions of beauty, but it definitely goes to show beauty's subjectivity.

I agree with Alice, too. Every time you have anesthesia, your risks during surgery are heightened (my dad has had it lots of times for different heart surgeries, etc.). To endanger yourself to look "prettier" is, like Alice said, wasteful and totally pointless. I mean, a nose job isn't gonna mean much once you get a whole new body in heaven. XD

[Cap'n Nick]

I think it's also worth pointing out that our current bodies are not God's perfect will for us. We were meant to live in communion with him, free from disease, death and deformity. For some reason God allows these things in our world but it would be against scripture to say that God enjoys sin and its effects, which include imperfect bodies.

In regard to my earlier comment, I didn't mean to give the impression that cosmetic surgery was as trivial as a haircut. But, I do believe that all of us practice a certain level of vanity already simply so we can live in society. The problem with cosmetic surgery lies in cost and risk, not in the desire to change your appearance.

[Icarus]

If my (theoretical) girlfriend told me she was having cosmetic surgery done, my immediate reaction would be to ask why. If she can sell me on the reasons, then I'll support her.

But, I do believe that all of us practice a certain level of vanity already simply so we can live in society.

Strangely enough, this is something I've thought of before. If we brush our teeth, comb our hair, and bathe simply to live in society; then it's not vanity so much as consideration for others. It's vanity when you brush your teeth because you want pearly whites, do your hair in a style that looks good on you, and bathe for clear skin.

[Cap'n Nick]

The point is you are still changing your natural form to please other people and improve their impression of you. If we were true about avoiding all vanity we would follow the example of St. Antony and the early ascetics. According to the accounts of Athanasius, St. Antony wore nothing but a coarse hairshirt, ate and drank no more than absolutely necessary and did next to nothing in the way of personal hygiene. I imagine he must have been quite offensive to some people, but he did all of this because of his firm belief that he should concentrate entirely on the things of God and thoughts of the life to come.

I, on the other hand, come to very different conclusions. Our bodies are not our ultimate good, but they are still an integral part of our being both in this life and the next and they are one of our most beautiful and useful tools in this life that we have. Total neglect in the style of St. Antony is not a position I can advocate. Instead, I postulate the following ideas:

1. Our current forms are not perfect, nor are they what God ultimately desires for us. The form we choose by choosing to do nothing is no more intrinsically sacred than any other form we might choose for ourselves.

2. Appearance does not dictate who we are inside. We should not worry about losing our identity by changing our bodies.

3. We should not serve our bodies. Our bodies should serve us. We must not become the slaves of our bodies either by spending undue time or effort improving them or by robbing ourselves of social, physical and emotional advantages by refusing to maintain and beautify them.

[mitsuki lover]

Being overweight is not healthy as most of us should know by now.So unless you happen to be a Sumo Wrestler or playing offensive tackle for the Minnesota Vikings
if you weigh anywhere over 300 lbs,actually any where over 220 lbs.then you really ought to think of seriously having some sort of surgery along with dieting and exercising or risk a lifetime of health disorders like certain types of diabetes.
Actually being overly thin isnot healthy either,and it does seem that we tend to
seesaw between the two extremes.Both are equally bad.
That said and now getting back to the main topic:
there are still plenty of reasons(including getting into a healthy weight)for having
plastic surgery.For example if someone has been in a serious fire and need skin
grafts,or if someone has been in an accident and needs limbs or digits replaced.
Yes shows like Nip/Tuck seem to imply that all plastic surgeons do is the vanity type of surgery that brings in the big money,but that is probably just the tip.
There are still plenty of places where people suffer from things like cleft palates etc.
that are easily healed by plastic surgery but they don't have the access to one so
plastic surgeons from the U.S.,etc. volunteer to go to those places to help out.

[Radical Dreamer]

Being overweight is not healthy as most of us should know by now.So unless you happen to be a Sumo Wrestler or playing offensive tackle for the Minnesota Vikings
if you weigh anywhere over 300 lbs,actually any where over 220 lbs.then you really ought to think of seriously having some sort of surgery along with dieting and exercising or risk a lifetime of health disorders like certain types of diabetes.

Generally, the best way to take care of this is eating right, exercising, etc. However, there are some people who are dangerously overweight (400+ pounds), and two women I know have gotten the surgery where part of the stomach is stapled off/removed, and it's helped them immensely. The latter of the two women was having knee problems because of her weight, so there was no way she could have lost the weight from exercise and the like. Granted, that surgery can cause problems, and the recovery time is pretty long, but they're both past that stage for the most part, and are doing quite well.

Anyways, my point is that unless you are physically unable to exercise to lose that weight, then you shouldn't be going in for a liposuction. Unless it's a real danger to your health that you can't get rid of any other way, you should always go for eating healthy and exercising first.

[Taliesin]

I myself have had surgery. it hurt. alot. I would never go through that again to look "good" I actually had surgery on my nose (long story) and no amount of handsomeness would convince me to actually PAY to go through that. if I was horribly disfigured I would consider cosmetic surgery but other than that there is no way I would do it. Getting surgery to deal with a weight problem can be very dangerous and eating right and working out are much better, safer ways to achieve that goal

[Akane]

I don't believe in gettin' plastic surgery if 'tis just for looks. It seems that peeps should have their priorities straight by the time they're 30. Or 'least I hope so, lol. And though it appears that you are vain, it actually screams even more, "I'm insecure and immature! I don't love my whole self! I haven't developed my whole self! I don't have anythin' else important to do! I'm willin' to risk my life to look a lil' tighter O.o", etc.

I DO believe 'tis fine if you have a health problem or if you've been in an accident though!!

So that is my humble opinion.

[Eaglestrike]

I'm very against most forms of plastic surgery (for looks). I'm not a fan of excessive make-up because it's not "real" beauty, plastic surgery is taking make-up to an extreme level.

I'm not fully against it, not everyone was born with a perfect face and I'm not big on thinking God creates how every person is going to look exactly so I don't think everyone looks a certain way for a reason. But for weight issues I'm against it. Honestly I've been very lazy the last 4-5 years (since I injured myself training for XC season basically) and gained a lot of weight. But I'm going to work it off myself, not taking the easy way out. Letting myself gain this weight shows a personal issue with motivation and structure in my life, even if I got all the weight gain sucked out, it'd just come back without a change in lifestyle, so it's pointless.

I'll close with saying any woman that gets plastic surgery unnecessarily is not one I'd be in a relationship with.

[Kai Robin]

*sigh*

I take it the board in general is adamantly opposed to said topic.

Getting a designer haircut can change your look just as drastically as plastic surgery. As would a little make-up, change of eye color or new clothes.

Because we're said temples, should I or any of the millions else stop straightening our curly hair? Stop using dax wax? Not plan on buying green contacts? Not set a budget for nice clothes? Not get purple highlights because my hair is "temple black" If any of us have done/do anything similar it's just like excessively cheap cosmetic surgery. Clothes change the physical appearnce of the body, a haircut is "hair surgery," if its too long, you clip it, i don't see the difference from someone who thought their nose was to long and did the same thing.

This is just one of those things where I think we're trying to act a little to righteous for our own good.

[Raiden no Kishi]

I don't think there's any reason to attack, KR. No-one here is trying to be pompous or self-righteous. The idea that I promote is moderation and not being overly concerned with one's self. At least for me, I believe that plastic surgery isn't worth the large amount of money for tweaking your own appearance. It's too frivolous for my tastes.

In conclusion, I say this: We are as entitled to disapprove of plastic surgery as you are to disagree with us, and condemning us for our beliefs on a "gray issue" such as this appears as self-righteous as you accuse us of being.

Why pick a fight? It isn't that important.

.rai//

[mechana2015]

*sigh*

I take it the board in general is adamantly opposed to said topic.

Getting a designer haircut can change your look just as drastically as plastic surgery. As would a little make-up, change of eye color or new clothes.

Because we're said temples, should I or any of the millions else stop straightening our curly hair? Stop using dax wax? Not plan on buying green contacts? Not set a budget for nice clothes? Not get purple highlights because my hair is "temple black" If any of us have done/do anything similar it's just like excessively cheap cosmetic surgery. Clothes change the physical appearnce of the body, a haircut is "hair surgery," if its too long, you clip it, i don't see the difference from someone who thought their nose was to long and did the same thing.

This is just one of those things where I think we're trying to act a little to righteous for our own good.

I'm not opposed to most forms of plastic surgery and I think you made a broad generalization about the population of the forum with reguards to the reasons people are opposed to plastic surgery.

I think the meat of my opinion really can be expressed like this. I've never heard of someone dying from complications of a haircut or hair dye job, but people do die from complications of surgical procedures or are marred for the remainder of their life. I do not straight out hate the concept, but I think that, like any major alteration to your life, it should be considered as such, researched, and given a lot of thought.

I would have the same opinion reguarding haircuts clothes and hair dying if hair could bleed, clothes were sealed or sewn into to your skin or if hair dye perminantly changed your hair color.

[Mr. SmartyPants]

I feel cosmetic surgery is unnatural because it's the physical alteration of inside a person's body to make the outside look different. Whereas getting a haircut or styling it doesn't really do much permanent change.

[Nate]

I'd just like to say that once again, the verse about our bodies being temples was only made in reference to sexual sins if you look at the context. Saying "Plastic surgery is wrong because our bodies are a temple" is taking the verse out of context.

By the way, I don't think plastic surgery is sinful, but I know I personally don't like it. I also think it's kind of not smart to say "I wouldn't date a person who had plastic surgery." Well I mean, let's say you meet a girl/guy, right? And let's say you got to know them, and dated, and after about two or three years you really fell in love with them, and then they told you that a few years ago they had plastic surgery. Well, would you break up with them right then and there? I would certainly hope not.

To sum it up, I agree with mech. You're probably not going to suffer injuries or pain from a haircut (unless the barber is blind XD), but injuries or pain can certainly occur from surgery. Remember when Pamela Anderson (I think it was her, or maybe Anna Nicole) had that thing where the silicon bag in her implants burst, and it was deadly? Yeah, see, that's the problem with plastic surgery and breast implants, is that they're dangerous, but putting on a different shirt or straightening your hair (usually) isn't. So we're saying, it's an unnecessary risk.

[Radical Dreamer]

Yeah, see, that's the problem with plastic surgery and breast implants, is that they're dangerous, but putting on a different shirt or straightening your hair (usually) isn't. So we're saying, it's an unnecessary risk.

Exactly. Plus, you can grow your hair out again and style it any way you wish, you can take out your colorized contacts, and you can change your clothes easier than either of the former two examples (in fact, I think the clothing thing is a moot-point, since clothing is not a part of your body).

[Cap'n Nick]

Very much agreed! It's not changing the body that's wrong. It's risking your life for it.

Come to think of it, I actually have had cosmetic surgery. I didn't think to mention it because it doesn't fall into the stereotype we're discussing here, but my parents got me vision correction surgery as a graduation gift.

Vision correction is a little different from some of the procedures we're discussing here in that it provides practical as well as aesthetic benefits, but it shares a lot of the same concerns. It wasn't something I needed to live or even to be accepted - it was perfectly optional. It wasn't cheap. And, even though it was low, there was still some risk.

In the end, everything has worked out fine for me. Given the choice, I would certainly choose it again. But, I'm curious to see how other people feel about the matter.

[termyt]

Excellent point, Cap'n.

Eye surgery is a form of elective surgery for the majority of folks who get it - and it does have its risks. I'm not aware of anyone dying from it, but if the surgery doesn't go well, you could end up blind. That could be a heavy price to pay just so you don't need to wear glasses anymore.

For that matter, contacts are also significantly more dangerous than eye glasses with increased risk of infection and damage to the eye should the contacts not fit correctly or not be cared for properly.

All of that could be considered as frivolous as a tummy tuck or a face lift, but if you have the financial resources to cover the cost, then it simply becomes a matter of risk assessment in my book.

I guess you could argue the money would be better spend elsewhere, and I would hope that everyone participates in charitable giving, but it’s not up to me to say how you use your money and the same could be said for the $30 you last spent on anime or video games.

[Jack Bond]

I don't support it unless it's necessary to health. You should live with the body God gave you.

[Kai Robin]

I don't think there's any reason to attack, KR. No-one here is trying to be pompous or self-righteous. The idea that I promote is moderation and not being overly concerned with one's self. At least for me, I believe that plastic surgery isn't worth the large amount of money for tweaking your own appearance. It's too frivolous for my tastes.

In conclusion, I say this: We are as entitled to disapprove of plastic surgery as you are to disagree with us, and condemning us for our beliefs on a "gray issue" such as this appears as self-righteous as you accuse us of being.

Why pick a fight? It isn't that important.

.rai//

One, I wasn't picking a fight, I simply threw out "for arguments sake," and some people seemed to jump all over it like sharks in a frenzy.

Two, everybody saying the EXACT same opinion isn't so much a discussion as much as well, people saying the exact same opinion. Seriously, its like a topic where someone says "list your 5 fav anime" and people just make lists without even saying why; seriously, does anybody really care to read a monologue list? Honestly this thread would be alot more interesting if someone else agreed with me so we could have an actual discussion.

[ShiroiHikari]

I don't really like the idea of frivolous cosmetic surgery. It's not that wanting to look good is a bad thing-- it makes you feel better about yourself. (And let's face it, it makes people treat you better.) But there are other, less extreme ways to make yourself look nice-- getting a new haircut, wearing clothes that compliment your appearance, et cetera.

[Raiden no Kishi]

[quote="Kai Robin"]One, I wasn't picking a fight, I simply threw out "for arguments sake," and some people seemed to jump all over it like sharks in a frenzy.

Two, everybody saying the EXACT same opinion isn't so much a discussion as much as well, people saying the exact same opinion. Seriously, its like a topic where someone says "list your 5 fav anime" and people just make lists without even saying why]

Well, the way you worded your post, regardless of your intention, came across as picking a fight.

Secondly, who cares if people generally agree? The idea of threads like this is to see what people on the forum believe about an issue. If they all believe similarly, then the thread did its job. There's no need to argue "for argument's sake".

.rai//

[Maledicte]

If plastic surgery is "frivolous", what about dental work?

My former overbite didn't make it hard for me to breathe, hamper my eating, affect my health, etc. It just made me look stupid. So I wore braces and they cost $1000's of dollars. My facial structure changed dramatically and I'm happy with it now.

So, was it all vanity? Pointless? Frivolous? Should I have lived with the face God gave me? People pick on plastic surgery but are happy for people who get their teeth straightened.

Just thought I'd throw that in there.

[Nate]

Again, though, the major point is that teeth getting straightened usually isn't life-threatening, but surgery is. That's why I don't support plastic surgery, not because it's "frivolous," but because it's an unnecessary risk.

[Alice]

Well, there is some difference, I think, between surgery for teeth and surgery so you don't need glasses, (even though these aren't strictly "necessary"), and surgery "so you have a bigger chest."