Mature Anime without (im)Mature content?

[Kraavdran]

Hey everyone!

I just wanted to open a discussion about "mature" anime. "Mature" can mean many different things, so perhaps I should explain...

So, I've been watching anime since early high school... nearly 10 years. A few years ago, I realized that anime was losing its appeal for me. I talked with a friend about it and we discovered something. Most anime that does not contain objectionable content (of particular importants, in my mind, is the "nudity scale") is typically shounen or shojo* and, more often than not, focuses on a student (usually middle school or high school). These anime tend to focus on themes that are common among their target audience. This is what made anime so great, in my mind, because it was really something I could relate to. Unfortunately, as I get older, the characters and their struggles and environment become further away from where I am.

The unfortunate thing is that the anime for older people, Seinen and Josei**, often contain significant objectionable content (and, I know, "objectionable content" is different for each person). However, objectionable content is not always part of these anime. Two examples I can think of are: Utawarerumono (which the review database rates the violence at a 6 and nudity at a 3) and The Sacred Blacksmith (Not yet in the database).

Now, if you are older and are fine with all anime, that's perfectly fine! I am honestly envious. I'm not trying to stir up trouble or anything. But I was interested if people had similar thoughts (or, if not, any thoughts about the topic). I'd be interested what everyone has to say! Secondarily, if you have any recommendations, I'd be interested in them.

Anyways, thanks for taking the time to read this post! I know that this can be a sensitive topic, so I tried to be as eloquent as possible. Please let me know if it needs clarification.

* Shounen and Shojo - For those who don't know, they are names describing anime made for a target audience of 10-18. Shounen is targeted for men, Shojo for women.
**Seinen and Josei - For those who don't know, they are names describing anime made for a target audience of 18-40. Seinen is targeted for men, Shojo for women. These do not mean explicit content is present.

[Midori]

Well, I guess this is a tricky topic. There are a few things I want to say, and I don't know if I'll say them well, but I'll try.

1. I'm sure there are plenty of shows that match what you're looking for, though it may be hard to root them out sometimes. If you're concerned about nudity specifically, I do recall Sacred Blacksmith has some exposed female breasts in the first episode, though I haven't seen any further episodes. That puts it in the 4-6 range in CAA's review system. However, there are a lot of other shows that'd work. I can't think of anything off the top of my head because I have a defective top-of-head-thinker, but I'm sure other people here can help you out on that. Isn't that what forums are for? : )

If you can't find enough titles that fit what you're looking for...

2. I'd go into the standard lecture on how nudity isn't inherently sinful and it's just a problem of how it's viewed and portrayed, but I'm sure you understand that already. I am not going to judge you if you simply don't like it or can't handle it, or if it leads you astray. That's totally fine. That said, there are an awful lot of shows that are just disrespectful or (as per your thread title) immature in their depictions of the human mind and body. That can significantly degrade the quality of a show, in my opinion. But they're not all that way. It's possible that if you put a little effort in you could expand your range a little. Similarly with violence and other "objectionable" themes.

On the flip side...

3. I think that there's a tendency among adults to dismiss things aimed at younger people as meaningless or trivial. I'm not saying you're doing that; I'm just saying that it happens. It may not be the majority, but there are shows intended for children that have quite deep and meaningful themes; after all, children are thinking people too. But if you never look for that meaningfulness, you'll never see it. This may be mostly my opinion, but I think that every adult needs to keep the mind of a child somewhere inside of themselves.

Flipping back to side A...

4. However, it's true that shows that are appropriate for children often don't have enough to give to adults. It's not because what's good for children isn't also good for adults. It's because adults often have to deal with things that children can't deal with. The fact is, adults need to consider the meaning of things like violence and sex, and that means they need art that isn't afraid of touching on those issues. That's part of why so many shows intended for older audiences have that sort of content. I mean, even the bible has parts that are full of violence and sex, and not just in a childish "this is bad don't do it" way. We don't often talk about those parts in church these days. I guess what I'm saying here is, if you feel a need that shows for younger people just can't fulfill, you may want to think about what that need actually is.

Well there I go talking my mouth off again. I hope that collection of perspectives was helpful at least. I'm not saying you have to do all or any of the suggestions here. You're free to do what you think best.

On a more practical note, are there any kinds of anime you're looking for specifically, that might help people give suggestions? I'm talking about broad categories like action, romance, comedy, fantasy.

[Nate]

Maybe I'm not the best person to answer this question for multiple reasons. :V

I really did fall out of anime though as time went on. It just in general didn't have the appeal to me anymore, though I'm hesitant to blame it on any particular thing. I could go the Hayao Miyazaki route and claim that otaku are ruining the anime industry and making bland moe crap to pander to the lowest common denominator, but that wouldn't be true. After all, I really did enjoy Madoka Magica. I guess, to me, the things I like and the themes I enjoy just aren't prevalent in anime very much. But of course, that has nothing to do with maturity, because now instead of watching Japanese cartoons, I'm watching Japanese live-action shows for children. Well okay, and adults too, I mean I watched Garo and it was pretty great.

I guess part of what appeals to me about stuff like Kamen Rider and Super Sentai is the themes. Very clear-cut, good vs. evil stuff. In Kamen Rider especially there's often a recurring theme of justice, which is great (though of course not every series focused on that, Wizard comes to mind, Wizard was also terrible though, but for other reasons than that). And shows with transforming heroes always make me happy because it provides a very clear moment where "stuff has gotten real" and the heroes are forced to transform. It's a big part of why I like magical girl stuff so much, especially Heartcatch Precure, since in general the transforming hero concept is a bit lacking in a lot of anime. Though it is present of course, Rockman.EXE Axess was absolutely a transforming hero series and I liked it a lot.

In the end though this doesn't help you much I'm sure. After all, Precure is an anime aimed at young girls and even if I were to try and convert you to the toku fandom, outside of Garo and parody series like Akibaranger or After V, there really isn't much for adults. So uh...yeah. I'll stop rambling now.

[Thunderscream872]

I'm no longer in high school, but I still can enjoy anime/tv shows about high school students. I think I'm just a sucker for dramas though, lol.

For me all that really matters is that the characters and story are interesting. I don't really care about the level of "maturity" (however you wanna define that). I can enjoy something like Dexter just as much as I enjoy Avatar: The Last Airbender. What themes a show deals with interest me allot more than how mature it is or isn't. I really enjoy shows that focus allot on moral conflict, good vs evil, self actualization, adventure, romance, etc. All of those can be found in both adult and kid's entertainment.

As far as content goes, for me personally, I'd prefer to watch a show that wasn't full of excessive violence and sex, but if the story/characters are good enough, I can easily look passed it. As an adult though, I don't feel any need to watch shows that deal with "adult" issues. That's not saying I can't enjoy a show like that, but I don't need for it to be "mature" for it to seem real and relatable to me.

What type of show are you looking for specifically? There are plenty of anime out there that don't deal with high school students/don't focus on high school issues, but that still leaves a very broad spectrum to choose from.

[LastLfan]

First off thank you Nate for being the voice of the Toku fandom, is Garo really good? I've been meaning to watch, pm me about it so we don't take the thread on a tangent.

Anywho as far as mature anime, I think there's an interesting example to be found in Death note. Yes, the main character is a high school student, but that's not the main point of the show, after maybe two episodes he never see Light at school. The focus of the series is ready very deep and concerned about justice and who can be judge jury and executioner, so is that a high school show or is it a more mature show?

In addition I suggest no.6 as a mature show, there are two male-male kisses, but it's never overly sexual and I still enjoyed the show.

[ClosetOtaku]

I just came from a screening of Princess Kaguya yesterday, and left very impressed with just how universal that film (Miyazaki wouldn't call it anime) is. The audience was mostly adults, many older than 30 or 40. I saw a few older people crying. I didn't think there was much objectionable in the film, though a puritan might have some issues with a couple of the scenes.

I also just finished watching Your Lie in April and was suitably impressed. The target audience may be middle-to-high-schoolers with the typical teenage angst and struggles, yet for me it went deeper. No objectionable content per se, though again a puritan might object to stuff not really seen but hinted at.

My favorite anime of all time remains Haibane Renmei. It's not a visual masterpiece, but the setting and story make up for any shortfalls in that category. It is (very) slow and moody and subtle -- and mysterious if you dare try to peel back the surface layers.

I've thought about these and other anime that I like -- I tend to enjoy slice-of-life more than fantastic realms -- and come to the conclusion that they all involve what C.S. Lewis calls The Tao -- the Reality beyond all predicates, the Universal Truths (or Natural Laws) that are at the core of existence. I watch Haibane Renmei and think of the mechanisms of grace that are hidden in plain sight; I watch Your Lie in April and re-experience the pain and tragedy of mankind's existence; I watch Princess Kaguya and see the dichotomies of Heaven and Earth and images of the Second Coming. Perhaps I'm projecting, but perhaps these authors themselves have pondered long on things that transcend what we normally experience, the Types and Shadows of a world beyond ours.

There is no more mature subject matter beyond that, IMO. That we all struggle, suffer, and eventually die -- "mature subject matter" for the average Hollywood art flick -- is certainly true, but if all of life is nasty, brutish, and short, then it is peculiar that we are as happy or hopeful as we seem to be. That there is a Reality that exists beyond, one which we are inexorably drawn to in one way or another, even though it cannot be seen but through a glass darkly -- now there is something people regardless of age can appreciate.

[Kraavdran]

Wow, guys, great replies! I appreciate all of your thoughts.

Midori, I'll start with responding to you. Thanks for numbering your posts, it will help me respond to them.
1) oh, yes, don't get me wrong. I can find shows that I enjoy that don't contain that sort of content. It involves quite a bit of sorting, but it is worth it. Although, recently, I have not found many. And, I know that "objectionable content" is a very broad term. Generally, my tolerance level is up to around 9 (although I don't like a steady diet of it) or so for violence and somewhere in the 4-6 area for "nudity." Generally speaking, I don't want objectification of women and don't want any sexual content on screen.

2) Given that tolerance, I hope you better understand where I am coming from. I think, if we discussed "objectionable content" further, we would agree on more things than not. I agree that nudity, in itself, is not wrong. But, due to "fan-service" and explicit sexual content, a show can be degraded in quality. It is my personal conviction that I should not watch shows with these things to a certain level. I can't say that everyone should follow what I follow, but I know that I should follow it.

3) You make a good point about dismissing things aimed at younger people. I should clarify, because I am not good at explaining: I still really enjoy anime, even the ones targeted for a younger audience. Shounen and shojo anime are still really enjoyable to me. It isn't like they are not enjoyable. I still feel that I can learn from them and be touched by the character's struggles. These things, I think, will always be a part of humans... no matter how old we get.

4) oh, certainly, I think that it is important for adults to consider the meaning of things like violence and sex. They are both very real things of life. Sex is not wrong and is, unfortunately, a taboo topic in our Christian culture. And certainly, the Bible is full of descriptions of violence and quite a bit of sex. However, and perhaps this is where we might disagree, I think that we have to remember the medium used to interact with these ideas. Visuals are particularly important because it is a very different thing for the Bible to describe healthy sexual matters (even stuff in Song of Solomon) and to visually see explicit, unhealthy things. I should note here that I am not judging what you watch. I don't know you or your convictions... or even the shows you watch. I am just explaining to the extent that I understand myself and those I have talked to about these things in greater detail.


Nate, you make some really interesting points. While, as you said, I don't know if I can apply most of the stuff you said to this situation... you did show that tastes are variable. I know a guy who really likes watching traditional magical girl anime. He is older than me and I respect him. His choice to watch magical girl is not a problem because he enjoys it. Each person craves a different take on the world. Some like ultra-realistic and some like magical girl (and everything in between). They can not really be compared because one isn't better (or more mature) than the other. Just different. After all, some people like pie better. Others like cake better. I hope that it is clear that I do not look down on either type.


Thunderscream, I agree with you on several points. As long as the characters and story are interesting, the show can be enjoyed. I also really like the moral conflict, good vs evil, self-actualization, etc.. I suppose that the target audience changes how these concepts are elaborated on or discussed. And, who knows, perhaps I am just tired of the manner in which most shows go about these things. After all, I can't quite explain why many anime shows are just not quite hitting me the same way. After talking with my friend, I had some ideas which I am now talking with you guys. You mentioned something interesting about anime that doesn't deal with high school students. Perhaps that is where the disconnect is for me. I'll have to think about that some more.

In terms of looking past certain things in a show, I can agree with that to a certain degree. However, I think, at a certain point it becomes too much to look past. This is probably different from person to person. To be honest, I have not quite found the line. But, I think, that is good. It is a tricky thing to actively keep pushing towards a line without knowing where that line is. And, perhaps, that is a separate issue altogether? I'm not certain.


LastLfan, that is a really interesting mention of Death Note. It has been a while since I watched it, actually, so it is hard for me to think of it in a time when I wasn't in school. And, honestly, all I can think of is how it is similar to Psycho-Pass at the moment. And, like I mentioned to Thunderscream, perhaps it is not so much the themes the show interacts with, but how those themes are interacted with. There is not too much difference between "adult issues" and "kid issues" when it comes to shows like Death Note or Psycho-Pass. However, Light has a very different thinking process when compared to Akane. Both are interesting to watch, don't get me wrong. But, at this point in life, I can relate with Akane's character more than I can with Light. I think. I hope that I am explaining this right. As a side note, I have seen no. 6. Although, due to some memory issues, I can't remember it very well. That being said, I don't remember enough about it to say whether I liked it or not.


ClosetOtaku, I'm not trying to say that anime targeted to a younger audience is completely incompatible or unrelatable. It is lots of fun and very dramatic (not to mention deep). They all deal with similar themes, but for some reason I have a minor (but noticeable) disconnect with the characters compared to others. I don't know, maybe I'm just overthinking it.

You make a good point about The Tao/reality being a theme that all ages can appreciate. But, my thought on this is that the way people perceive the world, and these answers, is constantly changing. Each person "resonates" with different answers (which change, come full circle, and vary from person to person... not necessarily based on one's maturity). Perhaps I am just taking partially incompatible anime recommendations and just attribute that to the fact that most popular anime focus on high school age characters. This might explain why I like anime from most genres (see my post on recommendations below) and sometimes like one genre, but not always. I don't know. Regardless, you've given me some good thoughts to think about.


I hope that what I said makes sense to everyone. It is hard coming up with words to explain a disconnect that I can't quite find a reason for existing. You all have given me some really interesting ideas to consider.... so perhaps I'll have a more detailed/clearer explanation in the future.


It occurs to me now that I created a lot of confusion with using "mature" to mean older themes as opposed to "mature" to mean adult visuals. I'm sorry for any confusion my words have caused.

Since most people asked what type of anime I enjoy, I'll post that here. I generally like most anime. I don't know if I can narrow it too much. I primarily watch fantasy/supernatural, psychological, and sci-fi/mech genres. I'm not too keen on anime with the "slice of life" tag. That being said, I have really enjoyed some select slice of life anime. The two genres I dislike are sports and musician-focused ones. Comedy anime can be really good, but I feel like lots of the humor is wasted on me since I don't speak Japanese (like for word-play and puns) and don't know many cultural references from Japan.


Whew, thanks for reading this all.

[DaughterOfZion]

First off, seeing as you've named psychological anime as a favorite genre of your's and you've been watching for over 10 years, I would assume you would have probably seen or considered many of these (But we all know what that makes out of you and me ;p ), but it wouldn't hurt to name them.

The first thing that comes to my mind as a "mature" anime is Serial Experiments Lain. This is mainly because of pacing, as it would have most kids bored to tears. And it's kind of that "generic" anime that will immediately be named when talking about shows that make people's brains hurt.

Satoshi Kon's(RIP) body of work also falls under what you've described, as it tends to go with higher concept themes, though something like Perfect Blue would likely exceed your tolerance level.

Makoto Shinkai also comes to mind with his often understated drama and romance plot lines, with other elements occasionally thrown in such as science fiction in the cases of Voices of a Distant Star and The Place Promised in Our Early Days.

The other director I think of is Mamoru Oshii, while probably most known on here for the Ghost in the Shell movies he's also done some good mature films such as Jin-Roh: The Wolf Brigade and The Sky Crawlers (which both cover themes of war with different approaches) among other things.

Without having an idea of what titles you've seen, I just kind of spitballed here. I hope this was some help? If nothing else hopefully it would at least give me a better idea what to mention.
Halfway through I also realized I was naming an awful lot of films, and while Shinkai almost only directs movies, Kon does have Paranoia Agent as a series to his name, and Oshii has also worked on other series, though I don't think Urusei Yatsura is what you want, haha.

[MangaRocks!]

One word for you, my friend: Mushishi.

It is, IMO, the epitome of mature-minded-yet-clean entertainment. And there's plenty of it to love, too. <3

I'll also heartily second the recommendation for Haibane Renmei, which is another great mature-minded-yet-clean series. Seriously, though, if you haven't experienced Mushishi yet, you really should get on that.

[EventualDay]

Hi, I just kind of wanted to jump in because I think I get what you were saying in your original post, Kraavdran. Or maybe not exactly, but parts of what you said really resonated with me.

Some of my favorite things to watch are "children's shows," whether this means Disney movies or magical girl anime or etc. I adore them. I thrive on stories that I think are both innocent and intelligent. I don't know how to describe it other than that I have this vital section of my heart that needs to be filled with both beautiful storytelling or character relationships and with happiness where the "bad things" always work out. For some reason things like that have a lot of meaning to me.

But at the same time, despite how I crave them, I'm not always satisfied. (Maybe I just go through moods, hahaha.) Just a day or two ago I was trying to look up the most popular josei anime... and apparently, though there's a lot of manga, there aren't a lot of shows. Which is kind of a shame. Even though children's shows often do an excellent job of subtly addressing adult themes, sometimes they just don't have the dynamics I want to see. (I'm especially sensitive to relationship dynamics. Though I like my shoujo drama, don't get me wrong, sometimes josei is a little bit smoother and less silly, if you know what I mean.)

Anyway, I don't have a lot of seinen/josei suggestions because I don't know of too many (and if anyone does, I'll love them forever ). For josei I can name Chihayafuru, Kuragehime, Michiko to Hatchin, and Honey and Clover. Unfortunately I've only seen (and loved) Kuragehime. Chihayafuru's on my next-to-watch list; I'm hesitant about Michiko to Hatchin because I don't know how explicit the content is (though it's generally quite well-liked). Maybe, though, genre doesn't matter so much as the characters do? There are some shoujo/shounen with older leads, or with more mature leads, or even with leads who just aren't placed in a high school setting. That might make a difference.

(I feel just a tiny bit silly now, but I like this topic...)

[skreyola]

I wasn't able to make my eyes read all of the things posted, and I'm sorry about that, but here's what I have to offer, ATM. I will say that this is a common struggle for me, too. I tend to watch a lot of SoL because it's so hard to find anything more philosophical.
Hardly anyone bolded titles, so I may have missed something I wanted to agree with.
Things that come to mind presently are Gunslinger Girl and Emma, both of which are available on Hulu. Both titles do have some nudity in one or two episodes, but none of it is portrayed salaciously (If I'm okay with it, that's saying something). Both titles also explore deep topics in a mature way, and both are very well drawn (the second season of GG, Il Teatrino, less so, but still fairly decent) and voiced and executed.
I know there were others, but I am having trouble thinking of them at the moment. I'll agree with Mushi-Shi, Chihayafuru, and Honey & Clover, as well.

[LastLfan]

First to jump in with Eventual Day, I watch quite a few "kid's shows" for instance B-Daman crossfire, regular show, adventure time, Yu-Gi-Oh! ZeXal and steven universe. It's nice to see shows that are child friendly but don't talk down to them.

Second, how did I possibly forget One Outs, it used to be my favorite anime but has been replaced with Log Horizon since, it's definitely not a kiddy show, and pretty much a sports anime about a pro team not a high school team as is the norm it seems.

[Kraavdran]

DaugherOfZion and MangaRocks, thanks for your recommendations. I'll take a look at those anime, definitely. Already added them to my list, in fact. I have heard of most of those recommendations, but haven't gotten around to watching them. I have watched Voices of a Distant Star and The Sky Crawlers as well as some of Satoshi Kon's work. Thanks for the recommendations!


EventualDay, I'm glad that you understand what I'm trying to say (at least, you seem to understand better than I understand ). To be honest, I really find classic "children's shows" refreshing. In terms of fairly recent stuff, Frozen was quite refreshing. I'm really looking forward to watching Big Hero 6 and Inside Out for similar reasons. It is odd, after my posting this other stuff, but it is true.

But yeah, like you said, despite how refreshing they are... they are not always satisfying for me. I don't think that it is moods, but a balance? Salt is good. Pepper is good. Just having one is not good. Having too much of one is bad. But having a balanced amount is good. Same with work and play. Perhaps it is the same way for us? Granted, some people dislike pepper. And that's fine too. It isn't necessary for every person to use salt and pepper in the same balance that I do.

I'm sorry that you were looking for Josei anime. They are extremely rare, for some reason. But, you make a good point. While even children's shows address "adult themes," they don't necessarily have the dynamic that is fulfilling. To continue the analogy, sometimes we want pepper... perhaps for variety? After all, some people like variety and others don't. Either is fine, really. Thank you for putting that into words so well! I hope that I am expounding on that along the same lines as you were thinking.

I'll definitely add those recommendations to the list, thanks!

Those are interesting ideas: anime with older leads or even just leads who aren't directly in a high school setting. I don't know if I can say for certain if it is one of those now. But, as I watch a few more series, I'll have to keep that in mind. I did recently watch Fractale. The main character is a high school age boy, but does not take place in school. I could not really connect to the main character well. It could be the show itself... but perhaps it is due to the dynamic role the character plays in his world. This (often) looks very different from a student compared to an adult. The interactions between, for example, a ship captain and the protagonist is going to feel entirely different if the protagonist is a young kid compared to a young man or guy in his 30's. All that said, perhaps it does have to do more with the role the character plays. It is also entirely possible I am just growing weary of seeing that same type of role (I am known to get tired of things a bit quicker than others). All this said, thanks for those ideas! I'll think about it more. Although, now I have to ask... which is it for you? Or is that what you meant when you talked about the dynamic that you want to see?

As a side note, I wonder if that is why you never see a really old (visually, all immortals aside) person as a main character in a series. SPOILER: Highlight text to read: With the exception of Howl's Moving Castle (kinda).

Anyways, I'll be sure to add those shows to my list. I don't know why you say that you feel silly, that was a great reply. I'd be curious to hear more about what you think... especially since we seem to agree on some key points.


Skreyola, I'm glad that you can relate to the struggle for the sake of discussion. I'll have to check out your recommendations as well, I've added them to my list. And, perhaps, I have overlooked Slice of Life anime. The last one I watched, When Supernatural Battles Became Commonplace, was actually quite deep and really interesting. In addition to having enjoyable animation.


LastLfan, Thanks for the additional suggestion. And, as always, glad to know that you also enjoy Log Horizon.

[Midori]

Thanks for your charitable response to my rambling thoughts.

I can't say that everyone should follow what I follow, but I know that I should follow it.

I believe God can tell different people different things. It's amazing how many people can't accept that, but it's true. I'd like to state, in case there's any potential for confusion on the matter, that the way my post was prodding in different directions is simply how I like to think. It doesn't mean I find anything wrong with the path you believe you should take. It's a good one and not enough people take it.

It occurs to me now that I created a lot of confusion with using "mature" to mean older themes as opposed to "mature" to mean adult visuals. I'm sorry for any confusion my words have caused.

My Thought Barometer indicates that the local confusion of those two concepts in your post and in this thread is significantly lower than the atmospheric confusion surrounding those two issues in our culture; thus it is my well-informed opinion that your words have abated confusion more than they have caused it.

[Xeno]

I could go the Hayao Miyazaki route and claim that otaku are ruining the anime industry and making bland moe crap to pander to the lowest common denominator

I'm going to agree with Miyazaki that "anime was a mistake". I also fell out of anime for several years and have only recently been able to watch any of it without feeling like I was watching garbage I should be ashamed of. A lot of anime is really bad, and I mean that in the sense of being bland and wholly uninteresting, while appealing to otaku. I've been able to enjoy some more recent series and movies because they try not to pander to that, but they're pretty few and far between.

Log Horizon is decent. Season one was a lot better than season two, but season two is apparently still better than any of SAO. Gundam Unicorn was better than pretty much anything that's released in the last couple years though.

Edit: I guess what I'm trying to say is I feel about anime pretty much the way I feel about video games. I love anime, but I hate the people who watch it, and I hate the people who make it.

[LastLfan]

Daww Xeno, we hate you too all kidding aside though I think I get where you're coming from. It's like when a band becomes popular and begins pandering to a different crowd. And yes I'd say log 2 is still better than Sao, not going to go on a super long tangent but although the plot wasn't exactly addressed neatly it was still relatively easy to follow while still feeling vast, plus(and this goes back to that whole pandering thing) Log horizon didn't add a boat load of fan service in its second season.

It's true though that you rarely see anime with a visually older main character, I want to do a little research and see if I can find a couple that might be good.

[Kraavdran]

Thanks for your charitable response to my rambling thoughts.
I believe God can tell different people different things. It's amazing how many people can't accept that, but it's true. I'd like to state, in case there's any potential for confusion on the matter, that the way my post was prodding in different directions is simply how I like to think. It doesn't mean I find anything wrong with the path you believe you should take. It's a good one and not enough people take it.

haha, and thanks for your charitable prodding! Thanks for your clarification, and I actually appreciate the "prodding" as you say, because, well, that's how I think as well. I like to see it from multiple sides to determine what is good (and, as you said, this looks different for each person) for me. You challenging some ideas (on both sides) is good, in my opinion. So thanks! Iron sharpens iron and all that.

My Thought Barometer indicates that the local confusion of those two concepts in your post and in this thread is significantly lower than the atmospheric confusion surrounding those two issues in our culture; thus it is my well-informed opinion that your words have abated confusion more than they have caused it.

haha, thanks! I've tried to make it clear. I'm glad it was not for nought.


Xeno (and Nate and LastLfan), that is a really interesting thing you mentioned, in reference to Miyazaki's opinion on modern anime. Perhaps that is something I'm picking up on and just mis-attributing it.

Although, as a side note, I also enjoyed Log Horizon. I'll have to look into Gundam Unicorn (another friend of mine said he liked it). I also enjoyed SAO (season 1)... it had some great elements... but seemed a bit rushed (suffered from snapshot arcs that made it a bit less cohesive). One part I thought they did really well was that SPOILER: Highlight text to read: the main character and his love interest actually got together before the anime ended, allowing for development of their relationship by the end of the series instead of the typical development into a relationship by the end. But, I can certainly understand why people didn't like it as a whole.

[EventualDay]

Haha, thanks for your response It made me smile. I guess I felt silly because this is sort of hard for me to put into words (and also, perhaps, I'm a bit more used to defending why I think lighter anime are valuable).

It's interesting what you said about Fractale; it's true, even in a sci-fi or fantasy setting, a high school student will probably interact much differently with adults and his peers then say, a middle-aged man would. For me personally, I tend to get easily bored of conflicts that are caused by simple poor communication. Which is unfortunately the case in a lot of shounen and shoujo--the character gets mad without thinking, misunderstands something and doesn't bother trying to ask about it, etc. I'm not sure if this means that I like or dislike certain character roles, but I always prefer characters who act like 'people' instead of 'types.'

I did a truly brilliant google search of "anime for adults" and there are actually quite a handful of lists or blogs on the topic. I'm gonna throw out two seinen I forgot about, House of Five Leaves and Space Brothers. (The bolded titles are for you, skreyola ) But I'm curious what we think of adults in shounen/shoujo? Like Tiger and Bunny, for example. Clearly the main characters aren't in high school, but I would say it's still targeted at a younger audience than say Mushishi is. But then, Mushishi is seinen and I'm fairly certain that Tiger and Bunny is shounen... Does character age really have an impact on maturity, or is it just the way the author chooses to deal with his content?

[PLCDreamcatcher14]

Well, I guess for me, somethings mature by the way it's handled. I mean, you may have something that's like super R rated but it's so silly, ridiculous, or eye-rollingly immature that you just can't take it seriously. While you may have something more G rated and aimed more towards kids like Avatar: The Last Airbender that handles itself better. In terms of content, I'm one of those who is more open to watch/read anything regardless of content. Don't get me wrong, I still have my limits but like Thunderscream said, I can overlook them sometimes. I have watched Shounen, Shoujo, Seinen, Josei, Shounen-ai, and Shoujo-ai anime. I love the excitement and over-the-top powers of Shounen, the cheesy yet sweet romance of Shoujo, the more realistic nature of Seinen and Josei, and the touching bonds of Shounen-ai and Shoujo-ai. And they all vary in maturity. I do wish that there were more animes with an adult protagonist though. But I think the reason why they use teenagers so much (and not just in Japan, but other countries too) is because kids admire teens, teens can relate to teens, and adults are reminded of their teens so it becomes more of a relatebility catch all. The only mature anime I can think of that I've seen are like Attack on Titan (heavy violence), Gankutsuou (mostly just dark and intense with some implied sex scenes and implied incest), and Death Parade (dark, some intense violence, and brief partial nudity). And I also agree with Midori on a lot of stuff too.

Well, I guess that's my two or three cents on the matter. There's probably more things I could say that I'm just not thinking of right now. Anyway, I hope I was of some sort of help.

[Kraavdran]

EventualDay, haha, well thanks! You say that it is hard for you to put this into words, but you seem to be doing a great job. Thanks for your insights.

Yes! I know what you mean about conflicts that are caused by poor (or interrupted) communication. Another common one is "withholding the truth so as not to 'hurt' another person." That one might be more prevalent in American shows. But, I think, it is in a similar vein as what you said. Perhaps that Miyazaki was on to something after all concerning the anime creators needing to know how to interact with people ... because communication is (ideally) learned when around people. While it is important to have 'stock type' characters for side characters, I agree. Main conflict should not push the 'people' characters into 'type' characters. The same formula, in that regard, does get tedious. I definitely agree with that.

Although, I guess that those types of conflicts would be more common with younger characters (less experience communicating and still trying to get a feel for how the world works). For example, in Rurouni Kenshin (a classic shounen anime with an older character) there is not much of Kenshin miscommunicating. More often than not, his beliefs were constantly challenged (which, of course, led to sword fights) and he sometimes needed to reawaken his resolve. Compared to Fractale, for example, the character is constantly trying to find where he fits in the world and what belief system he should have. Communication, as far as that goes, looks very different from Kenshin. I feel like I'm mixing two differences: communication style and where the character is in terms of beliefs (forming in the world vs testing against the world).

So, like you mentioned in the last bit of your message, I'd have to say that it concerns how the author chooses to deal with his content. After all, Fractale and Rurouni Kenshin both focus on morals and how a person should act given a situation. However, the authors went about discussing these ideas in rather different ways. This would suggest that, and I have to agree, that "maturity" is not necessarily the right word (Although, arguably, it could be used in the sense that older characters have an established worldview from which they are tested compared to an earlier moment in a younger character's life where they are tested while they try to form their worldview). So... perhaps it is a little bit of both? Although, I should note that using the word "maturity" that way is more of how the author interacts with content... and does not have to do with the 'maturity' of watcher. :/ I hope that makes sense. The English language is making my head hurt. To summarize, what you said about how the author chooses to deal with his content seems about right... and it seems that what was mentioned earlier (about getting tired of the norm) may be even more accurate than I thought. In this way, the 'targeted audience' may not be as important as I was initially considering.

House of Five Leaves and Space Brothers. I'll have to take a look at those too. Thank you (and everyone else) for these recommendations!


PLCDreamcatcher14, I only just now saw your message, after replying to EventualDay. But, it seems, what you said kinda goes along with the distinction between 'mature rating' and 'how the author chooses to deal with his content.' The example you used, Attack on Titan, I thought, was a good example. Just because a show is "dark" and deals with morbid themes does not mean that it is more mature (in the sense of maturity). Very well put.

Additionally, you bring up an excellent point about how teen characters are the most widely relatable character to have. That also suggests reason for why they don't often have a really old person as a main character. I suppose, to continue the salt/pepper analogy earlier, most people like adding salt to their food. Therefore, salt is made more available. For people who want about equal levels of salt and pepper (or, perhaps, curry), it may feel like there is too much salt. I hope that analogy makes sense. I like food, just like the yellow dragon in your signature, so I use food analogies when possible.

[skreyola]

EventualDay: Thanks for the bolding, hehe... I'll agree with both those titles (though H5L is something of an acquired taste, I think. Good, but esoteric)
However, I think you must be joking about Tiger & Bunny. While the presentation may seem a little bit aimed at kids, it feels to me more like the superhero stuff aimed at adults in the '50s and '60s, and the themes explored are definitely adult problems, including balancing career and family, balancing justice and vengeance, and balancing your public persona and your private self-image. Thank you for mentioning this title, for I think it's probably right on the nose to what the OP is looking for, deep down at the show's core.

[LastLfan]

Not anime, but I think two shows that deserve mention as an example of maturity without "mature content" are adventure time and Steven universe.

First adventure time, I could probably find other examples but the first that comes to mind is the episode "Breezy." In essence this episode is about how casual one night stands don't lead to happiness, but it's in a package that is relatable and appropriate for kids, without being dumb. The whole episode we see Finn thinking that kissing every girl we can will lead to him being happy, and even when one of them pushes him beyond his comfort zone we see him desolate and hurt. This is a very relatable episode that took caution to present a commonplace scenario in a very realistic and mature way. The episode expects that kids can follow and handle the story, while also knowing that adults can understand the metaphor and how it's not just a message for kids. It's very real and emotional and is mature not in its content but rather in the way it carries itself and the kind of entertainment it wants to provide. If a show just wants to provide some laughs and fan service that's fine, there's a place in the market for that, but we also need shows that are willing to address real topics in a mature light.

Second, Steven universe. This is a show that at first glance, is stupid, but when you put aside cartoon network's not knowing how to market it you'll find it is on adventure time level. It's mature in a way similar to that of adventure time, although it's appropriate for a child, it truly is family viewing, it's something that kids teens and parents can all watch together and take something away from, because it shows a devotion to it's lore(a whole other aspect of maturity of a work can be its breadth but that's not the point of this thread at the moment) and doesn't pull punches when showing its characters, not everything is always happy go lucky, these characters seem real and grow and learn.

So, sorry if I'm kind of beating a dead horse there, but wanted to show a little example of how maturity isn't determined by the age rating on a show. Maturity in and of itself is such a strange concept and C.S Lewis actually has a great quote on it that has inspired me very much, and it's great to see such lively discussion in this thread, quite refreshing really.

[dragonzatch]

One series that comes to mind is Oniisama e (Brother Dear Brother). On the surface, it seems like a fairly mild teen drama you'd maybe see on the Disney Channel.

It all goes south though, and the show tackles mature themes that Hannah Montana wouldn't poke a stick at. Fairly discreetly though.

Countries such as Arab and France tried to target the show to children ("durr, it's one of them Chinese cartoons with the schoolgirls, maybe it's like Sailor Moon, put it on for the kiddies") and failed, so it never really took off anywhere. It's definitely up there with the best anime drama though.

[Xeno]

Countries such as Arab

Can you point to Arab on a map, please?

[LastLfan]

I was thinking that as well, I get the idea...but not a country to the best of my knowledge

[Kraavdran]

Perhaps it was a shortened form of the "United Arab Emirates"? Or a reference to "The Arabian Nights"?


Anyways, to reply to LastLfan and dragonzatch, I actually have some experience with those "mature cartoons" like Adventure time. I used to watch it because a friend of mine did. All irrelevant stuff aside, I did recognize some rather deep, "adult" themes. I think that this agrees with what EventualDay and PLCDreamcatcher14 have kinda hinted at: The method the author chooses to deal with the content.


Some further insight came when I was talking to my sister about this. Specifically, we were talking about what PLCDreamcatcher14 mentioned about how teens are technically the "most relatable to a wide audience" and how this was why no (or at least very few) anime have really old main characters. The authors interacts with the material differently (which, I guess, is correlated with the age of the main character so that the story is cohesive and makes sense... ie: A young kid will be forming his understanding of morality because he has not yet done so... compared to an older character who is testing his understanding of morality). Both ways can interact with the exact same issues. But, for people like me, I like a good amount of variety in that manner. Just a personal preference, more than anything else, it seems. I hope that makes sense.

[Nate]

teens are technically the "most relatable to a wide audience"

Teens are only the most relatable if they're self-centered arrogant idiots because basically all teenagers are self-centered arrogant idiots, the problem is that making your main characters arrogant idiots tends to make the audience not like them. I mean don't get me wrong, that kind of character can work (just look at Archer) but generally the way to get around that and make teenagers likable is to basically give them adult minds...and that kind of defeats the purpose of making them teenagers.

[mechana2015]

I have another show to recommend to you under the category of mature in concept not in content.

Death Parade, little to no fan service, only one incident of really severe violence and it wasn't gratuitous, but there to make a point. Just finished watching the show and I give it high marks. 12 episodes on Hulu at the moment.

[Kraavdran]

Nate, certainly. The stereotypical teen would not make a good main character. And, to be certainly, they are given traits you would more commonly find in adults. That allows the story to continue in a pleasant manner. However, like PLCDreamcatcher14 mentioned earlier, that age group will probably appeal to the largest audience.


Mechana2015, thanks for the recommendation. I'll have to take a look at it!

[the_wolfs_howl]

This is definitely a problem I can relate to, though it was a problem even when I was a teenager and in high school and supposedly in the target audience for all these run-of-the-mill shows. I've never had much patience for high school shenanigans in any medium, or shoujo in general (the four shoujo I've actually managed to sit through have mostly won their place in my heart because they were so hilarious I could make it through the more boring bits and actually enjoy it). So I've always looked for the more "mature" and interesting stories while trying to steer clear of the worst content. I can put up with a lot of violence (I draw the line at eyeballs and fingers <_<), but even though I've grown a thicker skin as I've grown older, I still flail and rip out my headphones and skip all over the video if I run into anything that looks like it's anywhere near a sex scene. Finding good anime is a challenge, but it's one I love because the end results are so rewarding. Here are some examples that I don't think have been mentioned yet:

Kodomo no Omocha - This is probably the best example I've seen of "targeted at kids but deals with mature things." The main characters are actually in middle school, I believe - and I don't know if that's better or worse than high school It's definitely a shoujo, and most of the anime is just completely over-the-top ludicrous and wacky. And there's no doubt that the characters act rather immaturely a lot of the time - but then, they're like 10 years old, so it's hard to blame them for that. And for all that this show is geared for little girls, it deals with one really deep and mature subject after another. Instead of just focusing on school and romantic quibbles, it deals with death, divorce, abuse/neglect, suicide, abortion...you name it, it's probably in there somewhere. It does a phenomenal job of showing that kids deal with these problems just as much as adults. (Note that I've only seen the first 20 episodes, and stopped because it felt like a perfect conclusion.)

Clannad - Admittedly, this starts as just the sort of high school shoujo rom-com that a lot of us are probably tired of seeing, but After Story goes on to their lives after high school, and really digs deep. A lot of family problems, and of course dealing with loss and grief and trying to figure out what to do with your life. It does have some innuendo, but I think it does a great job at showing many different angles of life.

Wolf's Rain - I'm not sure if this really fits the bill or not, but whatever. I'm not sure how old any of the characters are, but only two seem like they could be teenagers (and I'm not sure about Hige). I suppose a lot of this anime fits into your usual shounen fare, with fighting and drama and all that. But because the main characters are on a journey trying to find Paradise, it naturally leads you to think about a lot of religious things, what the purpose of our life is, etc. Or at least it made me think of those things It's also very, very serious and depressing, and doesn't really have anything objectionable in it except for an artfully-covered naked body. And the very real possibility that the ending will plunge you into clinical depression <_<