Let's stop supporting <illegal streaming site> and others like it

[MxCake]

i kinda agree to the statment that the people that make the animes need to lower there prices. it would cut down on some of the torrents if the price of the anime was lower i mean everyone cant buy 20 dollar dvds and some cant be as lucky as me to have a store that sells them for 15 bucks and then has a sale that sells them for 3rd there price >.> sorry please dont be angry i dont choose to have an awesome store where i live =3. but i digress lol. I could also get into the whole thing with piracy and if its really stealing dosint make it less illegal because to gov. makes the rules but i heard a interesting phrase that says pirating videos is like if someone took your car but your car was still there. and i mean i don't see morally anything wrong is someone buys the dvd and then streams is out since he did buy the disk.(i do have a problem with people copying the first stream and then streaming it out again) im not condoning anything or saying its right or wrong just my observations and opinions

[J.D3]

I could mail a check to Sunrise saying "Here's money because I bought a used copy of your show" but that's stupid.

But yeah, I always go for torrents or download sites. Speaking of torrents, I wonder if the new Star Driver is subbed yet...and Kamen Rider. *goes off to check*

You'd have to be one heck of an honest guy (or crazed otaku) to mail a check to them! Rofl XD

I agree, streaming sites are SLOW AS and I usually just download anime videos and watch them later if I want to see what a series, etc. is like(quality's not as good, but a heck of a lot faster than waiting for buffers). After that I decide if I wanna buy them *hopes for sales*

I'm new to this torrent thing though, are there any sites that wouldn't be blocked by, say, a library's internet security?

[Davidizer13]

and i mean i don't see morally anything wrong is someone buys the dvd and then streams is out since he did buy the disk.(i do have a problem with people copying the first stream and then streaming it out again) im not condoning anything or saying its right or wrong just my observations and opinions

I'm not sure about anime, but I know that a few gamers did this for games with excessively restrictive DRM, like Spore or Assassin's Creed 2, because the pirated version had that removed. They'd buy the retail version, and then installed the cracked version to play the game, with no restrictions on use. In the emulation scene, there's people who believe that if you own a physical copy of the game, you can legally possess it in ROM form.

None of this has actually been tested in court, though, and even if you buy the game and play the cracked version, there's still going to be a huge number of people who don't buy it, so the net effect of that piracy is that the developer loses sales (at least in the first example - emulating old games falls into the even more legally dubious category of abandonware, which is for software which the developers no longer sell or support, but is still under copyright). Even if those games didn't have the backlash against bad DRM going against them, people would still pirate them anyway, because free > paying for something.

If people can get something for free, they will, guaranteed, so to cut down on piracy, you have to provide incentives to pay for it that pirated versions won't have. This works well when you're dealing with a physical media-based model. like selling DVDs, when you have bundled extras/feelies, but breaks down when you get into the realm of downloading and streaming. The most a legal streaming site can provide is higher quality, but that gap is closing (or probably has already closed). That's what these studios and distributors are facing: a seismic shift in how they do everything, and their non-reaction is a major element to this whole "death of the anime industry" thing.

[MxCake]

I'm not sure about anime, but I know that a few gamers did this for games with excessively restrictive DRM, like Spore or Assassin's Creed 2, because the pirated version had that removed. They'd buy the retail version, and then installed the cracked version to play the game, with no restrictions on use. In the emulation scene, there's people who believe that if you own a physical copy of the game, you can legally possess it in ROM form.

None of this has actually been tested in court, though, and even if you buy the game and play the cracked version, there's still going to be a huge number of people who don't buy it, so the net effect of that piracy is that the developer loses sales (at least in the first example - emulating old games falls into the even more legally dubious category of abandonware, which is for software which the developers no longer sell or support, but is still under copyright). Even if those games didn't have the backlash against bad DRM going against them, people would still pirate them anyway, because free > paying for something.

If people can get something for free, they will, guaranteed, so to cut down on piracy, you have to provide incentives to pay for it that pirated versions won't have. This works well when you're dealing with a physical media-based model. like selling DVDs, when you have bundled extras/feelies, but breaks down when you get into the realm of downloading and streaming. The most a legal streaming site can provide is higher quality, but that gap is closing (or probably has already closed). That's what these studios and distributors are facing: a seismic shift in how they do everything, and if their non-reaction is a major element to this whole "death of the anime industry" thing.

yea which is truth and a sad truth

[Nate]

Why is that a sad truth? If anime companies can't provide better quality services than the illegal streaming sites, why do they deserve my money? The whole point of capitalism is "I can give you a better product than that guy over there, so give your money to me instead of him." Why should I pay the anime companies ten dollars for a half-rotten apple if a guy down the street is giving away ripe ones for free?

[MxCake]

well are you paying for torrents and free streaming? lol thats not capitalism. and its a sad truth that theres greed on both sides. its greedy for the company's not to make something better so its worth paying for but its also greedy to download free stuff when you think about it.the fans of the anime are pretty much the food providers for the artists for these animes that you download for free. and when people say that without there fans there nothing its the truth and without fans supporting them they go out of business. its how it is.

[blkmage]

Except that's exactly how capitalism and markets work. If there's a huge disparity between the price that's being offered by suppliers and the perceived value of the product by the market, then that disparity will correct itself, whether the suppliers like it or not. And if the suppliers aren't willing to correct that disparity, then things like black markets pop up to correct it for them.

Technology has changed such that reproducing and delivering content is almost trivial. Media industries haven't willingly changed their strategies and pricing to reflect this. It's only until very, very recently that music companies have been forced to this. The only reason why iTunes and the like are so ubiquitous now is because they've been forced to at the expense of letting a huge black market govern pricing. The same is true for other digital media.

Further, it should be noted that streaming and downloads shouldn't be bringing in revenue for anime licensors, just as TV broadcasts don't in Japan. They should be for enticing people to buy DVDs. Whether or not people buy DVDs is another story (because I'm not going to buy a bad show). Obviously, licensors pine for the days when we'd just blind buy crap just because it was anime. Now, they have to work much harder and ensure the quality of their product, exactly as they should be doing.

[Atria35]

I have to admit, both the economy downturn and the illegal market has already forced prices down a lot. Now I can buy an entire season of anime for about $20-$30- the same as a season of American TV. What I have yet to see is that market price reflected in stores (when I went to Best Buy, for instance, I saw Naruto season 1 boxset 1 for $50. I can get it online for $30).

[Nate]

well are you paying for torrents and free streaming?

Actually, yes. I make a donation each year to the fansub site I torrent the majority of my toku from, because server costs and DVDs aren't free.

the fans of the anime are pretty much the food providers for the artists for these animes that you download for free.

No, no they aren't. When a show is licensed in America, the licensing company pays the Japanese studio who holds the rights to it in Japan. That's it. The money is received by the studio when the American licensing company gains rights. How well the DVD sales do in America has absolutely zero bearing on the Japanese studio after that, because the studio got their money. Any money from the DVD sales goes to the American company for THEM to make the profit, and they're hardly the "artists."

At this point I'd like to note that at this point, the American industry is at a severe disadvantage. A lot of anime in Japan doesn't make its money off DVD sales. They make their money off merchandising. DVD sales are a nice bonus, but they make a lot of it selling toys, cell phone straps, gashapon capsules, models, and so on. In another thread, I've mentioned that I've helped support the shows I fansub because I buy the toys. For toy-centric shows like Kamen Rider and Super Sentai that live off merchandising, I'm actually supporting the industry by watching fansubs, because if I didn't watch fansubs I wouldn't be buying the toys from those shows.

At any rate, like I said, the American market is kind of broken for a lot of reasons. We could discuss them, but meh. My point is that if you live in the US, buying DVDs is not "supporting the artists." Japan gets some nice extra money by licensing things out to US distribution companies, but it's not completely necessary for them to do so. And as I've said before, Japan actually might be happier if the US anime industry tanked. The reason is, DVDs in Japan are notoriously expensive. The American licensed DVDs are much cheaper, so sometimes anime fans in Japan will import the American DVDs because of the lower pricing. This of course cuts into Japanese DVD sales, and the Japanese studios don't like that one bit.

[ShiroiHikari]

And as I've said before, Japan actually might be happier if the US anime industry tanked. The reason is, DVDs in Japan are notoriously expensive. The American licensed DVDs are much cheaper, so sometimes anime fans in Japan will import the American DVDs because of the lower pricing. This of course cuts into Japanese DVD sales, and the Japanese studios don't like that one bit.

This right here. Instead of lowering their prices, Japanese companies would rather screw their own fans AND the overseas fans in the pursuit of making money. And I'm supposed to give them my money? :\

[Yamamaya]

This right here. Instead of lowering their prices, Japanese companies would rather screw their own fans AND the overseas fans in the pursuit of making money. And I'm supposed to give them my money? :\

It's all about gathering the dough.

[Cognitive Gear]

Well, it is a business. That's not to say that they don't need to change their business practices if they wish to stay relevant, but it is to say that they don't care if they are screwing their customers, so long as those customers keep paying.

They just need to re-evaluate how much they can screw the fans. XD

[Psycho Molos]

i kinda agree to the statment that the people that make the animes need to lower there prices. it would cut down on some of the torrents if the price of the anime was lower i mean everyone cant buy 20 dollar dvds and some cant be as lucky as me to have a store that sells them for 15 bucks and then has a sale that sells them for 3rd there price >.> sorry please dont be angry i dont choose to have an awesome store where i live =3. but i digress lol. I could also get into the whole thing with piracy and if its really stealing dosint make it less illegal because to gov. makes the rules but i heard a interesting phrase that says pirating videos is like if someone took your car but your car was still there. and i mean i don't see morally anything wrong is someone buys the dvd and then streams is out since he did buy the disk.(i do have a problem with people copying the first stream and then streaming it out again) im not condoning anything or saying its right or wrong just my observations and opinions

Well to use another analogy....it's like the part in "Ferris Bueller's Day Off" when they put Cameron's Dad's car in the parking garage and the sleazy attendant and his friend go joyriding in it and return before Ferris and his friends return!! LOL

[rocklobster]

Gonzo is a Japanese animation studio, and not one of particularly noteworthy output in my opinion.

Hey SOME of us liked their stuff. I still think my time watching Last Exile, Chrono Crusade, and Tower of Druaga was worthwhile. And maybe Gadguard.

And Crunchyroll is a great website Kunoichi. Here's their site: http://www.crunchyroll.com. You don't really have to pay, unless you don't want to sit through 2-4 ads during your viewing.

[Nate]

Hey rock still looking for that article that proves that your two favorite anime companies in the US were put out of business by illegal streaming? Man must be a pretty hard article to find! I mean it's been over a day since I last mentioned it to you!

[rocklobster]

<modsnip>

[Radical Dreamer]

Rock, that sort of post is unacceptable on CAA. To Nate, so is the sort of behavior that eggs it on, as seen in your post. Please see our rules about respecting other members here.

[Atria35]

You know, my dad amuses me. He just urged me to minor in Japanese because we 'do a lot of business with them', and pointed at the tv (in Dad-speak, this means anime.) So apparently if I get a degree in foriegn language, specializing in Japanese, I will get a good job as a translator for anime

[airichan623]

^ Hulu, Crunchyroll, and Youtube have the legal, licensed anime. If I want to watch an unlicensed series, I must go to (insert illegal anime streaming site here) or download it.

And some of the greatest series I've watched are ones that will not be licensed

agreement. like Kimi ni Todoke. Also licensed series that were once on tv, and aren't, or the companies arent smart enough to put up for viewing. like Code Geass R2, Gundam Seed/ Destiny (wow its mostly stupid bandai...), and shojo saturday morning classics like Cardcaptor Sakura, Tokyo Mew Mew, etc. I hate it that I ended up being born too late/ got into anime too late to watch them on tv.

[Atria35]

agreement. like Kimi ni Todoke. Also licensed series that were once on tv, and aren't, or the companies arent smart enough to put up for viewing. like Code Geass R2, Gundam Seed/ Destiny (wow its mostly stupid bandai...), and shojo saturday morning classics like Cardcaptor Sakura, Tokyo Mew Mew, etc. I hate it that I ended up being born too late/ got into anime too late to watch them on tv.

Oh, and don't forget the ones that they license but never ever do anything with! I think 4Kids got ahold of Mermaid Melody Pitchi Pitchi Pitch, but never aired it or released it in any way, shape, or form. They just let the license expire after it sat around for a few years.

Of course, that may have been a blessing in disguise.

[airichan623]

haha, true. lol 4kids. i miss ADV...i liked them. they had pretty good quality dubs, in my opinion.

[Nate]

shojo saturday morning classics like Cardcaptor Sakura, Tokyo Mew Mew, etc. I hate it that I ended up being born too late/ got into anime too late to watch them on tv.

Um...trust me. You're actually lucky that you didn't get to see Cardcaptor Sakura or Tokyo Mew Mew on TV. Very...VERY lucky. I'm going to go curl up in the corner now and cry a little bit for being forced to remember how absolutely awful those dubs were.

Oh, and don't forget the ones that they license but never ever do anything with!

My favorite manga got licensed a while ago and then the company that licensed it said "Oh whoops we actually looked at what we licensed and man we're never gonna release THIS." So it's scanlations for me!

[Psycho Molos]

agreement. like Kimi ni Todoke. Also licensed series that were once on tv, and aren't, or the companies arent smart enough to put up for viewing. like Code Geass R2, Gundam Seed/ Destiny (wow its mostly stupid bandai...), and shojo saturday morning classics like Cardcaptor Sakura, Tokyo Mew Mew, etc. I hate it that I ended up being born too late/ got into anime too late to watch them on tv.

Yea be glad you didn't see either coz they changed ALOT! I would have liked them a lot more if they hadn't

[otakuminister]

The only reason that I stream anime, is because 1) I don't want to pay $50 for 5 episodes of a show. I would rather get it free. $50 for a whole series/season then heck yes lets talk. I know there are exceptions of course but the fact remains that the prices stink. 2) I do not know what to expect from alot of stuff on the market. So instead of putting up the cash (where the merchandise is un-returnable once opened). I would rather stream to try it out. Now I have bought shows that I loved on DVD but that is after trying them in a stream format.

If the companies want my business, lower the price or give me more content for my dollar. Until then, I am a streamer.

[Neko-Hime]

If it's not on a legal streaming site, I don't watch it. For me, it's not just a case of "Oh well, I can't get it legally, I'll just get it... other ways." It's "Oh, I can't get it legally. I won't get it."

Even if people say it doesn't hurt the industry, I believe it's still respectful to the original artists not to watch it illegally. And it's written into the law that we shouldn't do it. We know the artists themselves don't like it- at least one has written an article against illegal distribution of her works. [right here: [url]http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2010-08-16/black-butler-author-decries-illegal-videos-downloads][/url]

So my question: how do you justify it?

[Nate]

So my question: how do you justify it?

Capitalism.

[Midori]

Capitalism.

So in other words, "It's there and it's free and you can't stop me"?

I am not predisposed to disliking fansubs, because my parents and I were fans of anime back in the days when there was literally no other way to acquire subtitled anime in the states than by getting copied cassette tapes. I do like to support the artists when I can (I recently paid $60 for the BRS OVA with some extra goodies), but the standard legal method of acquiring anime is not as old and well-established as the old fansubbed ways, and doesn't actually net the original studios very much money compared to what they get in Japan for the same anime.

Now I wonder...is it actually possible to send plain money to the Japanese studios who do anime? If so, I think I will end up doing that some when I become financially independent. My sister's family regularly send checks to PBS after torrenting their shows because PBS accepts anonymous donations without saying a word, but I'm not so sure other companies do that. And cross-currency donations might prove difficult.

[MasterDias]

We know the artists themselves don't like it- at least one has written an article against illegal distribution of her works. [right here: [url]http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news...eos-downloads][/url]

While I'm not fully unsympathetic to her necessarily, I really don't think accusing people of shoplifting or making exaggerated claims (starving? seriously?) was the correct thing to do. That said, fans certainly don't get a free pass for sending her tactless messages like "lol I downloaded the series for free." People really should know better.

Now I wonder...is it actually possible to send plain money to the Japanese studios who do anime? If so, I think I will end up doing that some when I become financially independent. My sister's family regularly send checks to PBS after torrenting their shows because PBS accepts anonymous donations without saying a word, but I'm not so sure other companies do that. And cross-currency donations might prove difficult.

Well, I'm not sure about PBS donations, but importing the DVDs directly from Japan bypasses the local/regional industry and basically supports the original Japanese companies directly. But it is really, really expensive.
It's far cheaper to just buy it from Funimation or whoever.

[Midori]

It's far cheaper to just buy it from Funimation or whoever.

The problem with that is that the cheapness of anime DVDs in the US compared to Japan means that the studios make far less money per DVD off of US anime sales than Japan sales. Subtract the overhead of paying professional translators to translate it, and usually professional voice actors to dub it, and you don't end up with much left over.

So if you really want to support the anime industry with your money, buy Japanese discs. I've heard a lot of anime BDs are coming out in Japan with subtitles in English, and BDs have Japan and the US in the same region, so Japanese BDs can be played in American players with no problem. It may be more expensive, but all of your money (I believe; please correct me if I'm wrong) goes directly to the studio.

[Nate]

So in other words, "It's there and it's free and you can't stop me"?

It's more like "I have no other option to watch this show and support the creators outside of fansubs." Also I don't watch series that are currently licensed. I watch either series that are fairly old and no longer profitable (I downloaded Gundam 08th MS Team because seriously, who's making money off that anymore? No one) or current series with no licensor (Star Driver and Puella Magi, as well as every tokusatsu that I watch).

I'd go further, into copyright law and all that, but then that gets into "You can't just choose to ignore laws just because you don't like them!" and the legality of fansubs etc. is a debate that rages to this day, so I won't drag that up. However I will say that DVD sales are (in Japan) not where most of the profit of a series comes from. I think I touched on this earlier? The big money is made off merchandising, the DVD sales for series are just kind of a nice bonus most of the time.

I buy my fair share of imported merchandise so I'm not going to tolerate some sort of "You're forcing artists to starve!" type guilt-tripping on me (not to mention that's a nonsensical argument). In regards to the article, I will say it's pretty stupid and petty of people to email an artist and go "LOL I stole your stuff!"