Let's Watch: Durarara!!

[Kung_Fu_Master]

Where's the Police when you need them? All they've done so far is give Celty a phobia of Criminal Justice.

On the flip-side, does anyone get the impression that Izaya is more than he lets on (besides the seeming to be a nice guy but likes to mess with people to have them kill each other.) ? I'm saying that given how some people are in this show he may not even be human at all.

[TheSubtleDoctor]

On the flip-side, does anyone get the impression that Izaya is more than he lets on (besides the seeming to be a nice guy but likes to mess with people to have them kill each other.) ? I'm saying that given how some people are in this show he may not even be human at all.

I have thought this for a while now and mentioned it a bit earlier in this thread. I think this is a very plausible hypothesis, given that he so easily believes in the Dullahan myth and that he often refers to humans as if he himself isn't included in that class.

[mechana2015]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I53smUYwqnc well guys, I finally found something worth posting.

[MightiMidget]

Rofl, Mechana!!! xD

[ich1990]

Another great buildup episode; less info dumping, yet much was still told to the viewer. What impressed me most, however, was the music. This series has always had a great atmosphere, and I think the music really contributes to that. This episode especially stood out in that category, even without the trademark "Naw-mee, naw-mee, naw-mee" noise that indicates something weird is about to happen.

DON'T MIND ME JUST DROPPIN' THIS OFF HERE.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAO4M5_Gf00

Oh, great. Now I feel honor bound to change my avatar.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I53smUYwqnc well guys, I finally found something worth posting.

Never mind, my avatar is just fine.

[blkmage]

Something that I neglected to mention before was that I felt like when the OP changed, it seemed to indicate that there'd be a shift in tone or atmosphere. At the beginning, it was really whimsical with hilarious antics and strange characters doing amazing things. Now, things have gotten a bit more serious and are starting to get out of hand and we've even begun digging underneath all of the funny fun times to find all of this stuff that the characters have been hiding.

[Fish and Chips]

Episode 20



It occurred to me recently that a lot of my annoyance with the turn this show has taken is due to the difference in temperament between the East and West - that is, individualism vs. groupthink. Eastern societies for the most part stress communal thinking and interaction in day-to-day affairs, creating a cohesive package at the expense of the individuality of its members. As Western thought lends itself more towards critical thinking and self-choice, I find myself growing increasingly impatient at Kida for not going with what I think is the obvious solution, which is only obvious to me because I've been thinking like that my entire life. Kida hasn't, and probably wouldn't. So that's that.

You know what? Forget it - this show is now about Walker and Erika and it's the best show ever.

And to all you folks who think Izaya is more than human or less than human or not human or whatever, what is he doing that's inconsistent with humans in the least? Izaya is the most human character in the cast, which is amusing considering he's also the biggest monster. Food for thought.

[Falx]

Man you know it's on when Walker opens his eyes. Strange how such a small change can make a character swing from strange and harmless to creepy and dangerous.

[ich1990]

I always did hate this part in sit-coms or sit-dramas. Why not just tell him, Kida? Who knows, maybe even Anri will be emboldened and tell her side of the story too. Then you can all talk about it like rational people and settle your differences. Maybe it is just my personality type, but I like direct communication between friends.

Everything else is awesome though.

[Yamamaya]

Cool episodes are cool but there's far too much drama over, "Your friend is leader of said gang."

Also Mikado stop being a pansy and do something.

[Mr. Hat'n'Clogs]

This is probably my favorite episode since eleven. It had humor, awesomeness, humor and awesomeness. While it did fall into a bit of a slump for a couple episodes, I'd say it's recovered at this point.

And while I would love Kida to spill and tell everyone what's going on, I can see why he wouldn't too. For starters, he's super ashamed of the whole Saki thing. Fair enough, he should tell Mikado still, right? I also can see it taking him a little while to muster up the courage though, I mean, it took years for him to finally visit Saki. But as he's gathering courage, what happens? The Yellow Scarves beat up Takeguchi to the point where he has to go to the hospital. Can you imagine how it might seem to Mikado just might react if right after Kida denied telling Takeguchi's membership to anyone Takeguchi is beat up followed by Kida telling Mikado he created the organization that beat Takeguchi up? I can see being afraid at that point.

That said, I would totally be down for Walker and Erika being the main characters.

[blkmage]

Really? You can't think of any reason why it wouldn't be a good idea for you to reveal yourself to the leader of the gang you suspect is inciting violent clashes with your gang? Alternatively, in the case that he isn't the leader of said gang, there's really no reason to avoid revealing that you're the leader of the gang that's the cause of the violence around town?

That's not to say that those reasons are necessarily good enough to justify not revealing your hand, but it's far from obvious that the best solution is to just talk it out, especially given that we have far more information (and know some of the characters better) than any of the characters do.

[Yamamaya]

Really? You can't think of any reason why it wouldn't be a good idea for you to reveal yourself to the leader of the gang you suspect is inciting violent clashes with your gang? Alternatively, in the case that he isn't the leader of said gang, there's really no reason to avoid revealing that you're the leader of the gang that's the cause of the violence around town?

That's not to say that those reasons are necessarily good enough to justify not revealing your hand, but it's far from obvious that the best solution is to just talk it out, especially given that we have far more information (and know some of the characters better) than any of the characters do.

It's not in anyone's best interests to spill the beans entirely. Once everyone figures out who everyone else is, it's going to create a lot of tension. In addition, it will be difficult for Mikado and Kida to keep their gangs under control once they suspect someone else of being the leader of the rival gang.

This is what gives Anri a huge advantage in this war. She can control her subjects absolutely. Of course this also creates a problem since Anri doesn't want to hurt Kida or Mikado.

[TheSubtleDoctor]

[SIZE="3"]"The merciless are failed catfish."[/SIZE]
---
I think it makes sense for Kida not to risk destabilizing the relationships that orient him/give him a place to belong to, and revealing to Mikado and Anri that he is a different person than they thought he was might do that. For Kida, spilling the beans appears to be a huge gamble. He wants to protect Mikado and Anri, but he is so intensely projecting his past onto the present, that I think his desire not to lose them might be so strong that it doesn't allow him to see possible long-term benefits of having a tell-all session.

Now, from my observer's perspective I want Kida to reveal himself ASAP, so the plot will kick into overdrive. Since Kida is "in it" and not "above it" though, I think his actions up to this point make sense from his own perspective.

[Yamamaya]

Also
"Your world can be filled with moe, tsundere, and BL!"

Oh Erica.

[ich1990]

Hm, perhaps it makes a better war strategy to not tell Mikado, but it certainly makes for a better peace strategy if he does. If my gang was having accidental clashes with my best friend's gang, I would tell him about it. I mean, even if my gang just beat up another one of his best friends, I am sure he would know that I personally didn't mean for it to happen. Relying on the level of trust and friendship that has built up by hanging out with each other for months and 20+ episodes doesn't seem to be much of a gamble to me.

If his goal is to avoid having another one of his girlfriends harmed, it would make a lot of sense to work towards peace and cooperation, right? It was out of control gang fights that hurt his ex in the first place.

Would this destabilize the friendship he has with Mikado? Possibly, although I think a relationship built on false pretenses is pretty inherently unstable anyways.

I do agree about Anri, however. You are quite right in that neither Mikado or Kido have any reason to tell her about their respective gangs. I momentarily forgot how little Kido knows compared to how much the viewer knows.

[Fish and Chips]

There's a deceptively simple solution here.

The Yellow Scarves are already aware that Dollars pervades just about everything in Ikebukuro, including the Yellow Scarves themselves - several members admit as much early in the arc. How difficult would it be to establish an envoy between the two gangs? "The leader of the Yellow Scarves would like to meet with the leader of Dollars. Anonymously, of course." Anyone with even the most tangential idea of how Dollars functions could dully point out Dollars doesn't control every aspect of its members' behavior - the problem exists apart from them. After that it's a simple matter of joining forces.

This leaves the Slashers, who Anri controls absolutely when using Saika. Mine them for information, send an envoy of her own, "The Slashers have been experiencing some anarchy locally - the problem has been dealt with." No one has to compromise anything.

Ah, but, probably too late for this now though. Izaya's running shop behind the scenes and Horada's clearly beyond Kida's ability to control anymore. It's almost Fargo in a way.

[Mr. Hat'n'Clogs]

Forgive me, but who is Horada again?

Also, simply establishing a connection between the leader of the Dollars and the leader of the Yellow Scarves would seem more difficult than I would think. Remember, Izaya, Kida, and maybe Takeguchi(well, maybe Namie, but she isn't really worth mentioning) are the only people who know who the leader of the Dollars is. How much power does Mikado really have? All he's done besides found the Dollars was to call a meeting. Where no one learned who he even was. Would they, after being attacked by the Yellow Scarves multiple times, have much of a reason to follow Mikado?

On the side of the Yellow Scarves, we see an issue. A large group of the gang is no longer loyal to Kida, to the point of ignoring his orders. Just the people who attacked Takeguchi alone represent that much, and its obvious these people also just like violence, and authority, like when they attacked Shingen. They want control, after having had it then losing it following the loss of Kida, and now that Kida is back, he doesn't want to fight the Dollars for control. Neither gang trusts the other, really, and neither leader has much authority. I'm pretty sure both Kida and Mikado know this, which is why neither have really acted on it.

It also might have something to do with the fact that most of the are highschoolers, which may be sometimes known to act like highschoolers on occasion.

[ich1990]

There's a deceptively simple solution here.

While that would be a clever way to solve the current dilemma, it doesn't really solve the problem. The whole reason this gang war started in the first place was from a lack of communication. If that fundamental weakness isn't corrected, Izaya will easily be able to brew more trouble and we will go back to this all over again. Three friends, each with an army of violent subjects underneath them, all lying to each other to save face? That is too easy of a target for Izaya to leave alone, even if they do come to a cease-fire agreement over these latest happenings.

Heck, Kida knows that Izaya is setting this up (or at least strongly suspects). If anything, that should encourage him to be more open with Mikado, if only to rob Izaya of opportunities to make trouble.

[Mr. Hat'n'Clogs]

Hey hey hey hey hey, I think it's a bit unfair to call the Dollars an army of violent subjects, since they haven't done anything yet, bar Shizuo.

And to say Kida should be encouraged by Izaya's planning, I think that Kida knows Izaya well enough to know to be careful with working against Izaya. The guy is crazy enough that it's difficult to work against such an enemy, especially one who has ruined Kida's life before. If I were in Kida's position, I wouldn't immediately go talk to Mikado simply because I think it's what Izaya doesn't want.

And again, this is a man who is desperate to keep his relationships together to the point of rejoining his old gang. Do you really think he wants to risk losing his only friends that he isn't ashamed to be with? It may not be a healthy relationship, but Kida is friggen' desperate to keep it any kind of relationship. Saki was his life before, and it was his fault she was hurt. Do you think that he, who has finally found something to fill his life with, would want to chance losing it again?

[Yamamaya]

There's a deceptively simple solution here.

As simple as that is, we must remember that the majority of Yellow's members are nothing more than violent, stupid people. Kida would have some trouble pulling this off considering the nature of his minions.

[ich1990]

Hey hey hey hey hey, I think it's a bit unfair to call the Dollars an army of violent subjects, since they haven't done anything yet, bar Shizuo.

Sorry, I should have said potentially violent subjects.

And to say Kida should be encouraged by Izaya's planning, I think that Kida knows Izaya well enough to know to be careful with working against Izaya.

Obviously, the goal isn't to tick him off, just make his job harder. There is something to be said for being cautious, but I must reiterate]And again, this is a man who is desperate to keep his relationships together to the point of rejoining his old gang. Do you really think he wants to risk losing his only friends that he isn't ashamed to be with? It may not be a healthy relationship, but Kida is friggen' desperate to keep it any kind of relationship. Saki was his life before, and it was his fault she was hurt. Do you think that he, who has finally found something to fill his life with, would want to chance losing it again?[/QUOTE]
So, on one hand he can do nothing and pretend to be his normal, happy-go-lucky self and risk another gang war that has already involved Anri and will almost certainly involve Mikado (he knows he is part of the dollars). This is a poor option that puts his friends in jeopardy, and will almost certainly disrupt his normal life when they get dragged into a brawl or kidnapped or something.

On the other hand he can be honest, inspire Mikado too as well, work together on shutting down Izaya's war, and then get back to being friends (and even better friends since they have been through a tough time together).

It seems like a no-brainer to me.

[blkmage]

There's a huge risk for Kida to be open if, in the worst case scenario, Mikado actually turns out to be malicious. Sure, he knows what he's like as his friend, but Kida has no idea what Mikado's motivations are as the leader of the Dollars. What's to stop Mikado from using that against the Yellow Scarves if he decides to value the Dollars over his friendship with Kida? In fact, Kida would be even more aware of these possibilities considering he's in the exact same position as Mikado, where he needs to lead a secret double-life. If he can act like a carefree high school student while hiding the fact that he runs a violent gang, why couldn't Mikado?

[Fish and Chips]

Forgive me, but who is Horada again?

On the side of the Yellow Scarves, we see an issue. A large group of the gang is no longer loyal to Kida, to the point of ignoring his orders. Just the people who attacked Takeguchi alone represent that much, and its obvious these people also just like violence, and authority, like when they attacked Shingen. They want control, after having had it then losing it following the loss of Kida, and now that Kida is back, he doesn't want to fight the Dollars for control. Neither gang trusts the other, really, and neither leader has much authority. I'm pretty sure both Kida and Mikado know this, which is why neither have really acted on it.

This guy.

And I stress - I stress - that the window for this is already closed. This is the sort of thing that could have wrapped things up in episode 18, but episode 20 we're dealing with a different problem. My post was in regret more than anything.

While that would be a clever way to solve the current dilemma, it doesn't really solve the problem. The whole reason this gang war started in the first place was from a lack of communication.

Except that how does opening channels of negotiation NOT lead to further communication between them? The whole reason this is even complicated in the first place is because everyone values their anonymity - something my solution would have settled without compromising.

[mechana2015]

At this point I just want Horada to spend some quality time with Erica and Walker.

[ich1990]

There's a huge risk for Kida to be open if, in the worst case scenario, Mikado actually turns out to be malicious. Sure, he knows what he's like as his friend, but Kida has no idea what Mikado's motivations are as the leader of the Dollars. What's to stop Mikado from using that against the Yellow Scarves if he decides to value the Dollars over his friendship with Kida? In fact, Kida would be even more aware of these possibilities considering he's in the exact same position as Mikado, where he needs to lead a secret double-life. If he can act like a carefree high school student while hiding the fact that he runs a violent gang, why couldn't Mikado?

If the worst case scenario were to happen and Mikado were to turn against him, Kida would lose a friendship he didn't really have and a gang he couldn't really control.

On the plus side, he would be able to face this new reality knowing that he put himself on the line for his friends and that is through no fault of his own that his relationships were lost. This is a far better result than, say, waiting around doing nothing because you are afraid of what my happen next --which is what he seems to be doing ever since he found out that Mikado is top dollar. What happened to all of that courage he displayed in talking with the van group?

Except that how does opening channels of negotiation NOT lead to further communication between them? The whole reason this is even complicated in the first place is because everyone values their anonymity - something my solution would have settled without compromising.

Sorry this is a typo. What I meant to say was open communication. If anonymity is preserved, then Kida can't use his friendship with Mikado to strengthen the two groups' shaky alliance. Without that extra support, Izaya will just topple it again.

The best long-term strategy for Kida is to be honest with Mikado.

[blkmage]

If the worst case scenario were to happen and Mikado were to turn against him, Kida would lose a friendship he didn't really have and a gang he couldn't really control.

On the plus side, he would be able to face this new reality knowing that he put himself on the line for his friends and that is through no fault of his own that his relationships were lost. This is a far better result than, say, waiting around doing nothing because you are afraid of what my happen next --which is what he seems to be doing ever since he found out that Mikado is top dollar. What happened to all of that courage he displayed in talking with the van group?

That's an oversimplification that assumes that all of the variables going into the decision and the outcomes are all binary.

If Mikado takes an action that benefits the Dollars over Kida, that doesn't mean that Mikado doesn't value Kida's friendship. For all he knows, there could be circumstances under which Mikado would decide that his responsibility to the Dollars is too large to put Kida above. And obviously, also clandestinely leading a gang himself, Kida is aware of all of these choices that Mikado might have to make.

Again, we know that if he does go talk to Mikado, everything's cool. Kida doesn't. Also again, that doesn't mean that his course of action is the best course. All I'm saying is that it's understandable that he doesn't take the direct route and that it's not super obvious that might solve everything oh god he's so stupid why doesn't he just talk with him this is the worst writing ever like you make it out to be.

[Mr. Hat'n'Clogs]

And I stress - I stress - that the window for this is already closed. This is the sort of thing that could have wrapped things up in episode 18, but episode 20 we're dealing with a different problem. My post was in regret more than anything.

See, I'd still disagree with that. Until this episode, the only people who knew the leader of the Dollars was Mikado were Izaya and Takeguchi. Was Kida really going to go to Izaya, the man he loathes, to get information about the leader of the Dollars, especially when he was probably trying more to prevent the Yellow Scarves from starting something but to have them ready if something happened? While Kida had to figure out who the leader of the Dollars was, Horada and friends were itching for a fight. Actually, it probably was a good thing that Kida tried to go slower and not rush into this. Wouldn't it be difficult to try and meet with the leader of the Dollars, when no one knows who he is. That could very well be what he was trying to do when he was talking to Dotachin and friends. It also doesn't help that anyone could pose as the leader of the Dollars if someone just asked "Could we have a meeting between the leaders of the Dollars and the Yellow Scarves.

[ich1990]

If Mikado takes an action that benefits the Dollars over Kida, that doesn't mean that Mikado doesn't value Kida's friendship. For all he knows, there could be circumstances under which Mikado would decide that his responsibility to the Dollars is too large to put Kida above. And obviously, also clandestinely leading a gang himself, Kida is aware of all of these choices that Mikado might have to make.

Even if this is the case, open communication still isn't a bad choice. Again, the worst case scenario is that he loses a level of friendship with Mikado that he can't hold on to no matter what he does. Or, he accidentally sells his gang out to Mikado, which was worth the price of trying to resolve things with his childhood friend. This isn't Death Note]Again, we know that if he does go talk to Mikado, everything's cool. Kida doesn't. Also again, that doesn't mean that his course of action is the best course. All I'm saying is that it's understandable that he doesn't take the direct route and that it's not super obvious that might solve everything oh god he's so stupid why doesn't he just talk with him this is the worst writing ever like you make it out to be.[/QUOTE]

I am not saying this is bad writing. Heck, knowing this show, there is probably some really good and cool reason for him acting the way he does. From my perspective, right now, however, I can't see that, and therefore I am a little puzzled as to why he doesn't take the more direct route. This puzzlement is borderline on annoyance, given that Kida seems content to let partial-truths from Izaya and miscommunication between himself and Mikado to fester when he could clear them all up by simply talking it out.

But like I said, there is probably a good reason for it. Anri was the slasher, so awesome things are always possible.

[blkmage]

Your annoyance has to do with the fact that you have more information than he does. And far as I understand it, Kida has yet to confront Mikado because he feels he doesn't have enough information yet. All he has is Izaya's tip. If he's going to talk to Mikado about it, he'd better be sure that he's the right guy and make sure that he won't get metaphorically stomped on.

Yeah, this isn't Death Note and relationships matter, which is exactly why Kida can't just sell out his gang, because as much as he wants to leave their world, he still has relationships with a lot of those people. And choosing responsibility over friendship isn't Death Note; it's real life. Sometimes you're going to have to make a choice that'll strain friendships. And when you do make one of those choices, that doesn't mean that you don't value that friendship.

Open communication isn't a bad choice, but it's not the only choice and not the most obviously rational course of action. I can sympathize with his decisions, because if I'm going to rock some boats, I'm going to be extra cautious leading up to said rocking and I want to be sure beyond a reasonable doubt. Or who knows, maybe it's because I am a terrible friend.

I think the bigger problem that Kida needs to deal with and is a lot more obvious is regaining and asserting his control over his gang.