About God bashing in animes...

[Radical Dreamer]

But in FMA it seemed the first thing they did was preach secularism, so I didn't watch or read beyond the first episode.

That's kind of a shame, because later in the series (anime only]Ed actually says something that suggests he believes there is a God, after going through many of the events in the series.[/spoiler]

Someone can correct me on that if I'm wrong, but I thought I remembered a scene where that happened. XD Either way, it's not really the focal point of the show, especially not after the first few episodes.

[Darth_Kirby]

That's kind of a shame, because later in the series (anime only]Ed actually says something that suggests he believes there is a God, after going through many of the events in the series.[/spoiler]

Someone can correct me on that if I'm wrong, but I thought I remembered a scene where that happened. XD Either way, it's not really the focal point of the show, especially not after the first few episodes.

Perhaps I should've given it more of a chance, and I might have if I had encountered it earlier, but the way they chose to start it made me roll my eyes and say, "typical." I was really interested when I heard the magic in the show wasn't just "mystic" but had very strict physical laws that it was bound to. But if the whole show was going to shove secularism down my throat I figured I shouldn't even bother.

[Nate]

Basic point is, the Crusades were not as simple as EUROPEANS BAD. MUSLIMS GOOD.

Oh no, I wasn't trying to simplify it all that much. It's just the way you phrased it ("Well, these things would never have happened if these other guys hadn't done this") came off to me as "Well you see, it's really THESE guys' fault in the FIRST place, so really THEY'RE the ones who should be blamed!" Which again, doesn't sit well with me.

I understand it a bit better, and now realize you're not saying that, but that's how I took it in your original post. But we're off-topic now anyway, I just wanted to clear that up before I dropped that line of conversation.

[Atria35]

But in FMA it seemed the first thing they did was preach secularism, so I didn't watch or read beyond the first episode.

They do begin the whole thing off with God and religion, but that's because those become very important to the story. Rad is right in what happens eventually.

[Darth_Kirby]

They do begin the whole thing off with God and religion, but that's because those become very important to the story. Rad is right in what happens eventually.

If that's the case I might check it out again, I just didn't want to read the secular version of a bad christain novel. lol

[Atria35]

If that's the case I might check it out again, I just didn't want to read the secular version of a bad christain novel. lol

It is very, very far from it. Which is why most members on the board who've seen it love it! xD

[Maokun]

Okay.I'd very much like to see the list for this.Alternatively, your average Japanese person doesn't understand the true tenets of Christianity any more than your average American.

+1

*SNIP*

Note that I was pointing at the widely known (either factual or mythic) effects of the middle ages as a source of fictional antagonist ideas for foreign observers, and that as such, a condemnation or parody of them don't actually represent an opposition against religion itself, which is why I introduced the topic to the thread before it went "so seriose."

I think what I'm saying is that I get frustrated with how the secular crowd express their views and are considered "enlightened/tolerant" and when christians express their views they are considered "backwards/intolerant."

While this is true, take in account that we're talking of works of fiction here. Often, the negative characterization of the western church or religion are simply used for interesting settings, plot devices or characters and not as an actual political or social stance.

Take your main example, FMA: Sure, they start right off the foot with a very political statement on the validity of religion from a scientific standpoint. However, wait for it, this happens in an universe where Alchemy is common place. Our world's scientist would scoff at the premise of the series in the same way that the characters scoff religion. And seriously, if you are going to create a series in an European setting in an alternate version of the Industrial Revolution, is it not logical to make the main institution and its members follow rationalistic philosophies according to the setting? Having the characters scoff religion from the beginning, rather than being an insult to real religion or to reflect the personal views of the author, serve to flesh out the characters' personality and worldviews in a definitive way. This is especially clever when you take in account the twist mentioned by others further in the series.

That's exactly what we've been trying to tell you so far: Rather than knee-jerky turn your head away in disgust the moment something slightly blasphemous or secular happens, stop and think. Is there a reason why a fictional series is including this elements? Does that inclusion actually represent a political anti-religious statement from the authors or is it simply a part of a story being told which has its reasons (which might have not been stated) deeply ingrained into the whole narrative?

And lastly, as others have advised, if it simply doesn't sit well with you, just let it go without regrets or complaints. Each of us has different limits, anyway and understanding that is as important as allowing yourself to be challenged from time to time with contrary philosophies.

[Yamamaya]

To be honest though, FMA doesn't exactly portray those "rational, religion hating" people that well. For example, there is the wholesale slaughter of the Ishbalans, a group of very religious desert dwellers.

Religion doesn't play that large of a role in FMA anyway. It's only mentioned a few times.

[Syreth]

Since fiction is so interpretive, I usually don't have a problem when a character believes something differently than I do. Even when writers are decidedly against God or religion, I don't have a problem enjoying their works. The only time a problem of that nature arises for me is when there's a decided message or agenda that the author is trying to preach, and when the author sacrifices the quality of his or her story for the sake of preaching the message more strongly.

[Darth_Kirby]

Take your main example, FMA: Sure, they start right off the foot with a very political statement on the validity of religion from a scientific standpoint. However, wait for it, this happens in an universe where Alchemy is common place. Our world's scientist would scoff at the premise of the series in the same way that the characters scoff religion. And seriously, if you are going to create a series in an European setting in an alternate version of the Industrial Revolution, is it not logical to make the main institution and its members follow rationalistic philosophies according to the setting? Having the characters scoff religion from the beginning, rather than being an insult to real religion or to reflect the personal views of the author, serve to flesh out the characters' personality and worldviews in a definitive way. This is especially clever when you take in account the twist mentioned by others further in the series.

That's exactly what we've been trying to tell you so far: Rather than knee-jerky turn your head away in disgust the moment something slightly blasphemous or secular happens, stop and think. Is there a reason why a fictional series is including this elements? Does that inclusion actually represent a political anti-religious statement from the authors or is it simply a part of a story being told which has its reasons (which might have not been stated) deeply ingrained into the whole narrative?

And lastly, as others have advised, if it simply doesn't sit well with you, just let it go without regrets or complaints. Each of us has different limits, anyway and understanding that is as important as allowing yourself to be challenged from time to time with contrary philosophies.

Trust me, mixing their beliefs into their stories, I have no problem with that. I really like XXXholic and Naruto. Both very cleverly mix the tenets of Shintoism into their works to the point that many don't even notice it. It's an actual part of the story.
But one: the magic in the show is knowledge based. Meaning that a secularist would find such a world realistic in the sense that if we did have powers that's how they invision it would be.
Two: As I said before, I don't mind them mixing their views into a story, but when you start preaching your thing and it has no relevence to the story (which in many of the cases that I've seen it, it doesn't. Take Magical x Miracle for example) then it earns my annoyance.
Three: It's true that it (God bashing) can be used to depict the personality of a character that is athiestic or agnostic, but I have seen very few examples where they have genuinely done this. If that was what they were doing in FMA they chose a very stereotypical scenario for the first scene to do it in. One that many have used as well.
Four: I have no problem with looking at different world views or perspectives. If I did then Naruto, Death Note, Magical x Miracle, and many others would not be on the list of manga/anime that I enjoy.

[Cognitive Gear]

Perhaps I should've given it more of a chance, and I might have if I had encountered it earlier, but the way they chose to start it made me roll my eyes and say, "typical." I was really interested when I heard the magic in the show wasn't just "mystic" but had very strict physical laws that it was bound to. But if the whole show was going to shove secularism down my throat I figured I shouldn't even bother.

I just want to jump in here and point out that the attitudes you seem to be bothered by are not secular. Secular refers to something having no spiritual basis, or to something not being bound by religious rules. In this sense, it's really not possible for secularism to offend someone (unless the lack of religious rule is offensive). For example, most American television is secular, since by promoting any particular religious view (even atheism) ends up pushing part of your potential audience away.

I think that what you are describing sounds more like an agressive attack on religion/god than just simply leaving it completely out.

But as to the main topic, I have seen a few shows that make rather strange or profane statements about god. This generally won't bother me unless it is a blatant and poor attempt by the author to convert me to their particular view. In which case, it doesn't matter what their views are, I will dislike the poor writing no matter what the message is.

[Darth_Kirby]

I just want to jump in here and point out that the attitudes you seem to be bothered by are not secular. Secular refers to something having no spiritual basis, or to something not being bound by religious rules. In this sense, it's really not possible for secularism to offend someone (unless the lack of religious rule is offensive). For example, most American television is secular, since by promoting any particular religious view (even atheism) ends up pushing part of your potential audience away.

I think that what you are describing sounds more like an agressive attack on religion/god than just simply leaving it completely out.

But as to the main topic, I have seen a few shows that make rather strange or profane statements about god. This generally won't bother me unless it is a blatant and poor attempt by the author to convert me to their particular view. In which case, it doesn't matter what their views are, I will dislike the poor writing no matter what the message is.

fair enough. I agree that I don't have a problem with secular ideas so much as I dislike "blatant and poor attempt(s)" to covert me. lol

[Atria35]

fair enough. I agree that I don't have a problem with secular ideas so much as I dislike "blatant and poor attempt(s)" to covert me. lol

Secularism isn't about converting anybody- it can't be, since there would be no mention of any religion at all if something were secular.

Aetheism is what you're thinking of.

[Darth_Kirby]

Secularism isn't about converting anybody- it can't be, since there would be no mention of any religion at all if something were secular.

Aetheism is what you're thinking of.

Well that's what Cognitive Gear was getting at. And I agreed with him.

Edit: Ah, the beast of terminology... how many more arguments will you start... XP

[ABlipinTime]

Wasn't there something about a "Sun god" or something like that in FMA? That's what it appeared to me they were hitting on. idk, I never finished FMA - didn't like it - kinda reminiscent of Harry Potter (in that it's just another story involving man's chasing after super power and has somehow become very popular), so I don't have the full details.

As far as god-bashing goes, there's always going to be people who say negative things about religion. Like MrKrillz0r said, just move on. That's what I do. I think you did do the right thing and bring up the topic - that way people can help you address the problem and you can get different insights as to how others see it and perhaps how the actual author might see it. So feel free to keep bringing this stuff up, though it would be alittle nicer to bring it up more in question format.


Oh, and "secularism" is a funny subject. Some people see it as directly associated with atheism or tighter, some see it as a cultural descriptor, some see it as ... ... *blabbers*... In Darth_Kirby's case, he has a particular definition in mind I'm sure, so he's not necessarily wrong as far as his definition is concerned. But I suppose if we want to stay on the same page, we can use this:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/secular

EDIT:

Ah, the beast of terminology... how many more arguments will you start... XP

Beat me to the punch there, didn't you?

[rocklobster]

If that's the case I might check it out again, I just didn't want to read the secular version of a bad christain novel. lol

My feeling about the whole "religion-bashing" that was done with the corrupt cleric in FMA was that it was showing us that we must be cautious and not let ourselves be led astray by con men and false prophets. The Christian religion is certainly not exempt from false teachers and should be criticized for this. If anything, it only reveals the human side of religion and how it has been used to manipulate people. Even though I am a hugely spiritual person, that part of FMA didn't bother me in the least. I thought the issue was treated very fairly.

[MrKrillz0r]

Haha I remember that I also stopped watching FMA at the very first episode since, if I remember right there was someone who said something which I did not approve. xD But in all honesty I've stopped watching loads of anime/manga very early on because of something I found offensive, just because I'm not really that intrested in it and therafore I don't even give it a chance. Although I often find myself giving them a chance later if I find a intrest in watching it, only to find out it wasn't that offensive at all.

k, now you know my story, I don't even know why I wrote that cool story of mine.

[Atria35]

Haha I remember that I also stopped watching FMA at the very first episode since, if I remember right there was someone who said something which I did not approve. xD

I treat anime kind of like real life- Not everybody is going to say things that I agree with. I try to understand where they're coming from. I can't make everyone agree with me. So I try to pay attention to the overall message instead.

[Darth_Kirby]

I treat anime kind of like real life- Not everybody is going to say things that I agree with. I try to understand where they're coming from. I can't make everyone agree with me. So I try to pay attention to the overall message instead.

yeah, but with hundreds of anime to choose from (many being downright cliche) what can you really do to get the overall message of all of them? Some you just have to taste the first few chapters and discard or go with. Anime is no different than books in that regard. There's just too many.

[mechana2015]

The question is... would you discard a critically and popularly acclaimed book, just because you didn't like the first paragraph or so? Sure, the more fringe stuff is discardable but sometimes it's good to see well known or popular media, to see what's gotten so much attention, regardless of whether you agree with it.

[Darth_Kirby]

The question is... would you discard a critically and popularly acclaimed book, just because you didn't like the first paragraph or so? Sure, the more fringe stuff is discardable but sometimes it's good to see well known or popular media, to see what's gotten so much attention, regardless of whether you agree with it.

Yeah, true. Not to offend all anime loving people out there (cause I love it too) but I don't really give anime alot of grace because alot of them are very bad in quality (story writing, etc) when compared to other forms of media. Hindsight is 20-20, but as I said before, you don't always have the time to sift through alot of these stories throughly.

[Atria35]

^ Maybe it's that I've been watching anime for so many years, but at this point I can pinpoint an anime that I will like (or not) by the description. I usually don't have to waste my time on the bad ones. It actually is easier than you think to do it.

I would still say that when watching an anime which virtually everyone has seen and loved, it should be given more of a chance.

And I would definitely say that the only reason it seems like there's more bad-quality anime is because it's so niche and there aren't that many titles to begin with- there are just as many, just as terrible, stories in other media formats.

[blkmage]

The reason it seems like there's a lot of bad anime is because of Sturgeon's Law.

[Nate]

The other reason it seems like there's a lot of bad anime is because when a person first gets into anime, everything seems fresh and original, because they haven't seen any of it before. When you don't know any of the cliches and rehashes, you don't recognize them as such. But after you've watched anime for a few years, then you start to see them, and it isn't as new or exciting, so it seems like the quality has decreased over time, when that actually isn't the case.

[Darth_Kirby]

The reason it seems like there's a lot of bad anime is because of Sturgeon's Law.

lol yeah... I do seem to adhere to that philosophy for all forms of media.

The other reason it seems like there's a lot of bad anime is because when a person first gets into anime, everything seems fresh and original, because they haven't seen any of it before. When you don't know any of the cliches and rehashes, you don't recognize them as such. But after you've watched anime for a few years, then you start to see them, and it isn't as new or exciting, so it seems like the quality has decreased over time, when that actually isn't the case.

Tiss also true. I have noticed that series I once loved are very cliche to me now. lol I guess it goes back to, "There is nothing new under the sun."

[Mr. Hat'n'Clogs]

I guess I never interpreted Arakawa as bashing religion because of all the awesome Ishbalans who are portrayed as both great and religious people. FMA has atheists who were good people and Ishbalans who were good people. Do the Xingese characters mention any sort of religion? I remember Scar's brother remarking at how similar the Dragon's Pulse of the Purification Arts was to their concept of Ishbala, so I wonder if there's a spiritual meaning or idea behind the Dragon's Pulse as well.

[spoiler]Then there's the whole Truth being God and ultimately being good.[/spoiler]

Edit: I guess the last thing could be construed as a spoiler, sorry.

[Darth_Kirby]

I guess I never interpreted Arakawa as bashing religion because of all the awesome Ishbalans who are portrayed as both great and religious people. FMA has atheists who were good people and Ishbalans who were good people. Do the Xingese characters mention any sort of religion? I remember Scar's brother remarking at how similar the Dragon's Pulse of the Purification Arts was to their concept of Ishbala, so I wonder if there's a spiritual meaning or idea behind the Dragon's Pulse as well.

[spoiler]Then there's the whole Truth being God and ultimately being good.[/spoiler]

?... is this spoiler stuff for FMA? Cause I'm totally lost. lol

[ShiroiHikari]

The reason it seems like there's a lot of bad anime is because of Sturgeon's Law.

Thanks for that.

Nate also makes a good point.

[mechana2015]

Not spoilers per-se, just mentioning characters past the first few episodes, some of who are from brotherhood, except that last bit which I'll spoiler in your post DK.

For the record of the thread I've only ever stopped watching one anime due to content.

[Maokun]

Yeah, true. Not to offend all anime loving people out there (cause I love it too) but I don't really give anime alot of grace because alot of them are very bad in quality (story writing, etc) when compared to other forms of media. Hindsight is 20-20, but as I said before, you don't always have the time to sift through alot of these stories throughly.

Exactly. What people have been trying to tell you here is that you ar missing a genuinously good anime because a first, mistaken impression. Indeed, there are hundreds of worthless series; no need to miss on the few good ones because you disagree with the views of one of the characters.