Tokyo Bill strikes again!

[ShiroiHikari]

Notably, ten publishers (Shueisha, Shogakukan, Kodansha, Kadokawa Shoten, Akita Shoten, Hakusensha, Shonen Gahousha, Shinchosha, Futabasha, and LEED) are boycotting Tokyo Anime Fair. Given how big TAF is, and how major many of those publishers are...this is a big deal.

That is, indeed, a HUGE deal.

[blkmage]

Well, realistically, the law doesn't mean that the affected series will necessarily get pulled or whatever, but that they qualify under the definition is worrying. The more realistic danger is the chilling effect it'll have on newer or less popular series. Wanna write about a bunch of kids stuck on an island that end up reverting to the basest of human instincts? Might wanna revise that subplot where they end up killing each other in brutal ways.

[Yamamaya]

That is, indeed, a HUGE deal.

I heard the Prime Minister was quite upset about all the publishers boycotting the TAF, considering how much income it brings into Japan.

[Nate]

EDIT: I removed this post because I misunderstood what Yamamaya said, no need to keep it up.

[blkmage]

Is it possible that seinen mags are generally considered as 18+ anyhow and don't get labeled because it would be redundant?

Seinen magazines definitely are not assumed to be 18+. Seinen is an extremely wide demographic that includes everything from K-ON! to Berserk.

And it's a legal requirement, so it'd have to be labelled as such if it were.

[Yamamaya]

...except if you read the FAQ i posted in my first post in this thread you would realize that this bill changes what is considered to be 18+ material.

Do I have to post it again? Is it just not showing up for you? Or are you purposely ignoring it because you enjoy irritating me because I have to explain it over and over again? If so, then good job, because I mad.

I read your FAQ. Geez. I was talking about whether Berserk was 18+ or not.

Not to mention that my previous post had nothing to do with your FAQ. It was merely about what way the government would enforce this new law.

From what I understand, things like moe and fanservice would not fall under the contents of this bill.

However, the bill is still ludicrously vague on what it defines as "violent, sexual, and bad!!!11 so it can lead to the horrible situation of every single animu/manga getting a big fat 18+ rating.

[mechana2015]

Seinen magazines definitely are not assumed to be 18+. Seinen is an extremely wide demographic that includes everything from K-ON! to Berserk.

And it's a legal requirement, so it'd have to be labelled as such if it were.

Eh just wondering, wasn't sure if there might be some sort of cultural thing.

[Nate]

Having seen um...materials that are rated 18+ in Japan, I can say that if something is rated 18+ it is plastered all over the front and back cover, and even on the spine I think too.

Looking at the cover of Young Animal, there is no 18+ label anywhere. It's safe to conclude that Young Animal is not an 18+ publication and, that by default, Berserk is not 18+ either under Japanese law. Now in America, absolutely it would be 18+, but it isn't there...probably because there isn't any explicit sex in it (I haven't read Berserk, but while I'm sure there is sex in it, I'm sure it doesn't show detailed genitalia in it, which would be required for 18+ probably).

EDIT:

I read your FAQ. Geez. I was talking about whether Berserk was 18+ or not.

Okay. Sorry for snapping. My bad. I thought you were talking about anime in general and saying "Well if it isn't 18+ now it won't be under the new bill!" which of course would be incorrect. So yeah, again, I apologize for lashing out at you.

[mechana2015]

Having seen um...materials that are rated 18+ in Japan, I can say that if something is rated 18+ it is plastered all over the front and back cover, and even on the spine I think too.

Looking at the cover of Young Animal, there is no 18+ label anywhere. It's safe to conclude that Young Animal is not an 18+ publication and, that by default, Berserk is not 18+ either under Japanese law. Now in America, absolutely it would be 18+, but it isn't there...probably because there isn't any explicit sex in it (I haven't read Berserk, but while I'm sure there is sex in it, I'm sure it doesn't show detailed genitalia in it, which would be required for 18+ probably).

I think I'm hitting my head on the wall between the difference between Japan and America's different interpretations of 18+ a bit.

[ShiroiHikari]

I am considering writing to the Tokyo Metropolitan Government even though I will be writing in English instead of Japaneeeezu because I am a stupid gaijin. They need to understand what a BFD this is.

[Yamamaya]

I am considering writing to the Tokyo Metropolitan Government even though I will be writing in English instead of Japaneeeezu because I am a stupid gaijin. They need to understand what a BFD this is.

The otakus and the Japanese Communist Party are probably informing Tokyo of this quite a lot already.

[Fish and Chips]

Yeah, that is a bit of a failed experiment.

Guess le bill's criteria are a bit too steep/vague ergo flexible.

The problem is really the bill's flexibility. Let's use cigarettes and smoking as an example. I've written a character who constantly smokes out of habit. If I make him a good guy, I get flagged for making smoking look "Cool" or "Presentable," but if I make him a villain I could get flagged anyway for incidentally featuring smoking in my work. The language of the bill is vague enough to allow this sort of thing. Stuff like Detective Conan could, conceivably, get marked for the gall to have actual murder in a murder mystery series.

I know what Berserk is like and I know that it's not kids stuff or anything, but I still wonder if it's legally 18+ or not. There's a surprising amount of stuff that isn't, and again, it doesn't make sense to me that there'd be 18+ and non-18+ series running in the same publication.

Berserk features sex and violence on a fairly dependable basis. I understand that doesn't necessarily equate an Adults Only shrink-wrap everywhere in the world, but I'd prefer to think any series featuring an entire chapter devoted to[spoiler]A demon emperor breeding an army of abominations who, on panel, eat their way out of their drowning human mothers' stomachs[/spoiler] would warrant some warning for the casual reader.

I'd respond to Nate's post about genitalia here but Berserk is actually a little inconsistent about that.

[blkmage]

Thanks. Just looking for some information. But yeah, Berserk, Eva and Persona 3 are all 17/18+ works IMO (Berserk and P3 are in actual fact), and Solanin is cutting it pretty close.

I just caught this and a few other posts and, no, Evangelion and P3 and Solanin are not 18+ in anyone's POV unless you consider them to be pornographic. That is what it means to be 18+. It doesn't mean you shouldn't watch this if you're under 18. It means that these titles will now be treated in the same way as pornographic works. Like Nate said, the equivalence isn't with R for movies or M for games, it's NC-17 for movies and AO for games. I'm pretty sure that whatever anyone thinks of Evangelion or P3, it isn't porn.

[AnimeGirl]

Responding to Nate's "FAQ" part of the post.

WHAAAAT???!!!! Oh boy, then the manga I am writing would be considered 18+ under those crazy standards! O.O 'Cause it contains blood and weapons are present. And dude, that would mean even the edited version of Cardcaptor Sakura could be considered bad, since Li like....HAS A SWORD!! This is sad....

[Nate]

Yep, even the edited CCS could be 18+ because it has romance and weapons in it.

This is why so many mangaka and industry professionals are protesting this bill so heavily. Again, as blkmage said, it won't have much of an effect on series that are already finished, the worry is about ongoing series (such as the Shounen Jump ones) and future manga/anime.

Evangelion and P3 and Solanin are not 18+ in anyone's POV

Quoting this part of blkmage's post for emphasis. There is a difference between entertainment for adults and adults only entertainment. It's the difference between an R rating and an NC-17 rating.

A porn film is adults only. No child is allowed to legally view that material. American History X is an adult movie. Children are allowed to legally view it with someone who is 17 or older with them. It's definitely an adult movie and not meant to be for children, but it is not restricted from viewing.

While in your view, SubtleDoc, those shows may be for adults, they are not adults only, and that's the difference. And uh...I don't even see how Utena can be considered for adults either. Utena the manga was published in Ciao, which is a shoujo magazine. Meaning it's targeted to young girls. I mean it's in the same magazine as Di Gi Charat and Wedding Peach. Utena is nowhere near an adult series. It's not even 17+, let alone 18+. It's like 13+ at worst.

[TheSubtleDoctor]

I just caught this and a few other posts and, no, Evangelion and P3 and Solanin are not 18+ in anyone's POV unless you consider them to be pornographic...I'm pretty sure that whatever anyone thinks of Evangelion or P3, it isn't porn.

Oh come on. Eva is so porn.










.../joke

[Falx]

I was FOR this bill, but now that I know how it will be implemented... man how dumb can you get.

[AnimeGirl]

Yep, even the edited CCS could be 18+ because it has romance and weapons in it.

This is why so many mangaka and industry professionals are protesting this bill so heavily. Again, as blkmage said, it won't have much of an effect on series that are already finished, the worry is about ongoing series (such as the Shounen Jump ones) and future manga/anime.

I seriously hope this is a joke, but sadly maybe it isn't

[Nate]

I was FOR this bill, but now that I know how it will be implemented... man how dumb can you get.

That'll teach you.

I seriously hope this is a joke, but sadly maybe it isn't

It isn't. You have to understand the politics of Japan, which I don't fully, but I do know a bit. Japan's older population is very conservative, and so the guy who authored this bill, Shintaro Ishihara, ran on a platform of "Children and foreigners are the reason this country is messed up, and I'll give you more pension money." This bill is his effort to get those dang kids to stop messing up Japan, because it's that evil anime and manga influencing them to criminal acts.

That of course is nonsense, but you have to understand this guy. He's a guy who hates the US and thinks Japan should stand up to us and assert themselves as dominant. He has made racist remarks against Chinese and Koreans, and said that they shouldn't let Africans into the country because "we should be letting in people who are intelligent." And let's not forget his lovely statement that ""old women who live after they have lost their reproductive function are useless and are committing a sin."

Oh and that forests eat children. He actually said that. He even went into detail on how forests eat children.

[ShiroiHikari]

I'm pretty sure Ishihara also denies that the rape of Nanking ever happened.

Ishihara and Ahmadinejad would probably be best buddies if it wasn't for that whole racism thing.

[Roy Mustang]

I'm pretty sure Ishihara also denies that the rape of Nanking ever happened.

He has. In 1990, Ishihara said in an interview that the Rape of Nanking was a fiction, claiming, "People say that the Japanese made a holocaust but that is not true. It is a story made up by the Chinese. It has tarnished the image of Japan, but it is a lie."


[font="Book Antiqua"][color="Red"]Col. Roy Mustang[/color][/font]

[ShiroiHikari]

Speaking of "tarnishing the image of Japan", Ishihara's doing a pretty good job of that himself.

[AnimeGirl]

It isn't. You have to understand the politics of Japan, which I don't fully, but I do know a bit. Japan's older population is very conservative, and so the guy who authored this bill, Shintaro Ishihara, ran on a platform of "Children and foreigners are the reason this country is messed up, and I'll give you more pension money." This bill is his effort to get those dang kids to stop messing up Japan, because it's that evil anime and manga influencing them to criminal acts.

That of course is nonsense, but you have to understand this guy. He's a guy who hates the US and thinks Japan should stand up to us and assert themselves as dominant. He has made racist remarks against Chinese and Koreans, and said that they shouldn't let Africans into the country because "we should be letting in people who are intelligent." And let's not forget his lovely statement that ""old women who live after they have lost their reproductive function are useless and are committing a sin."

Oh and that forests eat children. He actually said that. He even went into detail on how forests eat children.

I knew this bill had to do with someone who wants to destroy anime and manga. *shakes head* Forests eating children? O.o Sure this guy doesn't have...mental issues?

[Yamamaya]

I'm pretty sure Ishihara also denies that the rape of Nanking ever happened.

Ishihara and Ahmadinejad would probably be best buddies if it wasn't for that whole racism thing.

I've met a Japanese ultranationalist on the interwebz before.

The guy also believed the Rape of Nanking didn't happen and that Japan was merely defending itself. He also believed Japan was superior in every way to every other country. And he even once said, "The Japanese will have vengeance against U.S.":grin:

[Midori]

POOOOLITICS!

Let's be done.