Superman: Awesome superhero or Gary Stu?

[Cognitive Gear]

David Goyer, who is writing the script for the upcoming Superman movie, wrote an introduction to Superman: Secret Origins. In it, he touches on the kind of thing that can make Superman interesting:

"There is a heart breaking moment halfway through the first chapter in which young Clark is told the truth about his heritage. He races out into the night, sobbing, stumbling through the cornfields. Eventually, his foster father, Jonathan, finds him."

'I don't want to be someone else,' says Clark. 'I don't want to be different. I want to be Clark Kent.'

'I want to be your son'

"Right there in that moment, Geoff [Johns] contextualized Superman in a way that I'm not sure has ever really been done before. I had an 'aha' experience when I read that. For the first time I was able to grasp how lonely Clark must have been when he was growing up. And what a sacrifice Clark must continually make by being Superman."

[Yamamaya]

John Freeman isn't perfect. He got there slow and then Gordon Freeman was zombie goast.

By perfect, I meant how noble and true his heart was. Not to mention how he gave his life to protect the world and his son from combines.

[Nate]

Since everyone here seems to idolize Batman, I think I should quote Batman's thoughts on Superman.

"It is a remarkable dichotomy. In many ways, Clark is the most human of us all. Then... he shoots fire from the skies, and it is difficult not to think of him as a god. And how fortunate we all are that it does not occur to him."

Batman says Superman is a great character and the most human of anyone. BATMAN said that. So ha. You just got told.

P.S. Later, as Infinite Crisis began, Batman admonished him for identifying with humanity too much and failing to provide the strong leadership that superhumans need.

[Solid Ronin]

David Goyer, who is writing the script for the upcoming Superman movie, wrote an introduction to Superman: Secret Origins. In it, he touches on the kind of thing that can make Superman interesting:

The problem there is you say "can" as in its a possibility. But its a fact that Superman is a great character. Geoff Johns is great Superman writer actually. In fact He wrote "Infinite Crisis" with the idea that since Watchmen every hero has to be some flawed man stumbling over his own imperfection and it was time to change that.

-The story itself had some holes, but the spirit was beautiful.-

[Nate]

I love Watchmen but I also kind of wish it never existed since it started the whole "Dark and violent is MATURE" phase of comics as well as what you said, the idea that every hero HAS to be flawed and imperfect. Not to say that flawed imperfect heroes have no place, but that shouldn't have to be the standard.

[Cognitive Gear]

The problem there is you say "can" as in its a possibility. But its a fact that Superman is a great character. Geoff Johns is great Superman writer actually. In fact He wrote "Infinite Crisis" with the idea that since Watchmen every hero has to be some flawed man stumbling over his own imperfection and it was time to change that.

-The story itself had some holes, but the spirit was beautiful.-

Eh, I find that he's interesting in well written stories, and incredibly bland in poorly written ones. It depends on the writer, like just about every other superhero.

I love Watchmen but I also kind of wish it never existed since it started the whole "Dark and violent is MATURE" phase of comics as well as what you said, the idea that every hero HAS to be flawed and imperfect. Not to say that flawed imperfect heroes have no place, but that shouldn't have to be the standard.

Yeah, even Alan Moore feels this way. I read an interview where he expressed how annoyed he was that people latched on to the "dark, flawed and gritty" thing instead of the "serious literature" thing.

[Rusty Claymore]

You can't do what's right?
You can't see the good in humanity?
You can't be the better man?
You can't strive for a better world?

Wow, Claymore, setting the bar low.

If the only thing you get out of Superman comics is "Dude can fly and shoot laser beams," you're reading them wrong.

Huh, I didn't know he shot lasers.

[Nate]

Heat vision technically.

[Yamamaya]

I love Watchmen but I also kind of wish it never existed since it started the whole "Dark and violent is MATURE" phase of comics as well as what you said, the idea that every hero HAS to be flawed and imperfect. Not to say that flawed imperfect heroes have no place, but that shouldn't have to be the standard.

I also liked Watchmen but I have several hangups with it.

No 1: The ending, that is all.

No 2: Dr. Manhattan. I hate his guts. In fact, I hate most of the characters. Except for Rorschach.

[Nate]

"The ending" can mean a lot of things in Watchmen? Do you mean the fact that the one character's plan succeeded (not naming for spoiler reasons)? Or do you mean the stuff Doc Manhattan said? Or do you mean the scene at the newspaper room?

I'm the opposite of you. I can't stand Rorschach. He's probably my least favorite character in the whole thing...well except for the Comedian but that's the obvious choice. I actually think Night Owl is the best character.

[Yamamaya]

"The ending" can mean a lot of things in Watchmen? Do you mean the fact that the one character's plan succeeded (not naming for spoiler reasons)? Or do you mean the stuff Doc Manhattan said? Or do you mean the scene at the newspaper room?

I'm the opposite of you. I can't stand Rorschach. He's probably my least favorite character in the whole thing...well except for the Comedian but that's the obvious choice. I actually think Night Owl is the best character.

By the ending I mean how one character's plan succeeded and everyone else's efforts were completely and utterly wasted. I hated the fact that eveyrone(save for Rorschach) were completely cool with the morally gray method that character used.

Not to mention how stupid it is. We can't figure out how to finish it so we'll throw in a [SPOILER]PSYCHIC OCTOPUS LOLOLOLOLOLOL[/SPOILER]

I guess I just liked Rorschach because I feel like he represented the spirit of Watchmen best. That spirit was certainly dark. I also loved Ror's quotes such as, "This city is frightened of me. I've seen its true face." and "Never compromise, even before Armageddon." Sure he was a fascist, but in the Watchmen universe, that ideology tended to attract the superheroes(which is probably Alan Moore's way of saying superhero ideology leads to fascism or something like that).

The Night Owl was okay, but he was very...ineffective. I just found Rorschach more interesting than him.

Dr. Manhattan is just too inhuman for my tastes(not to mention his ludicrous arguments in favor of destroying life.

[Cognitive Gear]

Not to mention how stupid it is. We can't figure out how to finish it so we'll throw in a [SPOILER]PSYCHIC OCTOPUS LOLOLOLOLOLOL[/SPOILER]

I'm pretty sure that we didn't read the same book.

In fact, with this kind of statement I know that we could not have read the same book. I just don't know how you could come to the conclusion that the ending wasn't planned out and threaded through the entire book.

[Nate]

By the ending I mean how one character's plan succeeded and everyone else's efforts were completely and utterly wasted.

So you hate effective and competent villains in stories. Got it. You want the Dr. Claw "I'LL GET YOU NEXT TIME GADGET!" villains, not ones that actually accomplish anything. Good to know.

I hated the fact that eveyrone(save for Rorschach) were completely cool with the morally gray method that character used.

No, none of them were. Now I'm questioning if you even read the comic. Night Owl said it was repulsive but he had no choice but to go along with it or else all the people who died would have died in vain, and even more would die if the plan was exposed. Doctor Manhattan just commented on how futile the plan was in the first place. I'm too lazy to pull out my copy of the book right now but I think Silk Spectre had the same thoughts that Night Owl did. None of them were like "Hey great job, this was an awesome plan!"

Not to mention how stupid it is. We can't figure out how to finish it so we'll throw in a [SPOILER]PSYCHIC OCTOPUS LOLOLOLOLOLOL[/SPOILER]

That was planned from the beginning. You didn't pay attention during the parts with the special effects guys and the artists on that island? It was never added in at the last second because they couldn't think of an ending, it was always planned from the start of the book.

EDIT: Ha ha Phil said the same thing. Awesome. XD

Also lemme get out some ammunition, spoilered.
[SPOILER]And of course, when you call it a giant squid, it does sound pretty stupid. But it’]
Also,
[SPOILER]The big problem here is that from the moment Dr. Manhattan is introduced in the story, he is shown as being the pawn of the United States government. Doing the bidding of president Nixon in the name of the Stars and Stripes. He even wins the Vietnam War for the US. Would the world really believe that Dr. Manhattan is a universal threat to the world and cause them to cease hostilities against each other? Russia didn’t really trust the US back in 1985, so why would they believe Dr. Manhattan went rogue after years of faithful service to Uncle Sam? If anything, Dr, Manhattan’s attack would either escalate the Cold War or start World War III.

First, the “threat” needs to remain alien in nature and scary as hell. Fans tend to agree, the only way humanity could believably stop warring with each other is if they faced a new and menacing extraterrestrial enemy.

Second, the destruction this “threat” causes should include piles and piles of bloodied and battered corpses. Fans feel that audiences need to see at face value the horror of the “solution” the perpetrator of this plan has caused. In early drafts of the script, the victims of this attack get vaporized, leaving only ash — not particularly gruesome. If you look at the opening pages of Watchmen’s final chapter, you’ll understand why fans feel that kind of carnage needs to be shown. A picture is really worth a thousand words.[/SPOILER]
Finally,
[SPOILER]Look, the giant squid at the end of the graphic novel isn’t a metaphor or a symbol. It’s far-out and weird and bizarre in ways you could never comprehend, but it’s all those things precisely because it HAS to be. Ozymandias wants to unite the governments of the world in a single cause, to force them to lay their petty differences aside and join forces against a greater foe. He wants to make them a team.

The Lovecraft-ian squid achieves that by seeming to come from another dimension – another plane of existence. It’s so beyond comprehension that it absolutely HAS to be a unilateral threat to everyone -- it’s not a U.S. or Russian fear, but a global one. More importantly, it’s not CAUSED by the U.S. or the Russians or the Cubans or whomever. It comes from outside.

Dr. Manhattan, meanwhile, comes from within. Dr. Manhattan is an American. No, he’s more. He’s a TOOL of the American government. Great pains are taken throughout the book to establish this. Any attack that seemed to come from Manhattan, would therefore seem to come from Washington -- to be ordered by the U.S. government itself.

But what if the attacks only happened on American soil? How could the Russians claim Manhattan was working for the government then? They probably couldn’t -- but then why would they help? It would negate Ozy’s goal of joining the world against one common cause, no matter how it was handled.[/SPOILER]

Dr. Manhattan is just too inhuman for my tastes(not to mention his ludicrous arguments in favor of destroying life.

That's the point of Dr. Manhattan is that he's supposed to be inhuman. So you are subtly saying he is a great character, because he's making you feel how you're supposed to feel about him. Further, he was never in favor of destroying life. He just didn't care if it got destroyed (which is another reason the film ending didn't make sense; Doc repeatedly showed himself to be indifferent to how humans acted).

[Yamamaya]

In an attempt to not further hijack this thread I'm going to keep this response brief.(and the fact it took me five times to make this post considering I had to keep on closing the browser).

First of all, don't put words in my mouth. I never said I preferred my villians stupid and ineffective. I said I disliked the fact that all the "heroes" efforts amounted to nothing. They could just stand there gaping at the villian's ultimate plan.

Secondly, I shouldn't have used the term "cool with it." I should have said, "go along with it."

[Nate]

Well to be fair, the plan had already been completed. There wasn't really anything else they could do. Sure they could kill that character, but so what? What would that have accomplished? And that character even said "Sure, go ahead and kill me, I don't mind. I saved humanity, I don't care what you do with me."

And again, yeah they went along with it. Like Night Owl said. If the plan was exposed, everyone who died in the plan would have died for nothing. Their deaths would have been meaningless. And then they'd be right back to where they were before the plan was enacted, and many more would die. And for your statements on how Doc Manhattan was inhuman and didn't care about human life, he killed Rorschach to PROTECT human life. I think that says a lot.

[Psycho Molos]

I also liked Watchmen but I have several hangups with it.

No 1: The ending, that is all.

No 2: Dr. Manhattan. I hate his guts. In fact, I hate most of the characters. Except for Rorschach.

I hate Doc Manhattan too...flaunting his stash all over the place and stuff...that was just wrong!

[Nate]

I hate Doc Manhattan too...flaunting his stash all over the place and stuff...that was just wrong!

I'm sorry you feel so self-conscious.

[Seto_Sora]

Superman is totally a Gary Stu. You see, the character actually has no development. A common staple of the hero is the challenge, trial, or difficulty that makes a hero stronger. You journey with that hero as his weakness is made known and he overcomes or dies (and I'm not talking a green rock). A hero must be challenged by something greater than he is, that could destroy him, and he can overcome. What I'm saying is, there is no believable development in him. He kinda stagnates. But, as an amateur opinion, that is my unprofessional opinion.

[Seto_Sora]

I also liked Watchmen but I have several hangups with it.

No 1: The ending, that is all.

No 2: Dr. Manhattan. I hate his guts. In fact, I hate most of the characters. Except for Rorschach.

Oh hahaha! That is so cool! Totally agree with you Yamamaya! Rorschach was the only cool character in The Watchman!

[Nate]

I've never read a Superman comic in my entire life.

Thank you for your contribution.

[Rusty Claymore]

I hate that generic minion #382. Geesh, for crying out loud! He's got no development, no face, and he doesn't even have a motivation! He just gets ordered around and can never finish any of his assigned jobs. Just a lousy, "Oh no! *insert superhero* is here!" and then he gets punched, kicked, or heat visioned into the next volume. Obviously, the most annoying literary character of all time. Srs. XP

[Solid Ronin]

Superman is totally a Gary Stu. You see, the character actually has no development. A common staple of the hero is the challenge, trial, or difficulty that makes a hero stronger. You journey with that hero as his weakness is made known and he overcomes or dies (and I'm not talking a green rock). A hero must be challenged by something greater than he is, that could destroy him, and he can overcome. What I'm saying is, there is no believable development in him. He kinda stagnates. But, as an amateur opinion, that is my unprofessional opinion.

Did you miss the parts where Superman sings the songs that ends the corrupted Earth, and the part where he builds the miracle machine to wish for a happy ending. Or the part where he unleashed mini- kryponitans to travel the world and literally FIGHT disease. Or when he fights doomsday to the death but only knocks him out because he respect life to much to end even his. Or where he becomes the sun.

I've never read a Superman comic in my entire life.

Oh wait, Sorry I didn't see this post, nevermind.

[Psycho Molos]

I'm sorry you feel so self-conscious.

I'm not self conscious it's just that he should keep it in his pants...heck he should be introduced to CLOTHES for crying out loud!

[Nate]

I've never read the Watchmen comic and do not understand the character of Doctor Manhattan.

Thank you for your contribution.

[Yamamaya]

Nate knock it off for crying out loud.

On the topic of Superman, he can be done correctly in which he faces a major threat or problem and has to struggle to solve it. However, if he's going around kicking everyone's butt without breaking a single sweat, then he's moving close towards Gary Stuness.

Also Rusty wins the internet

[Psycho Molos]

yea Nate for your information I have been reading through Watchmen so nya!!!!!

And you were putting words in my mouth that I never malfing said....for shame!

[Rusty Claymore]

Also Rusty wins the internet

Yay! ...wait... 0.o XD

[Nate]

And you were putting words in my mouth that I never malfing said....for shame!

Well, I can only think of two reasons to complain about Doc Manhattan being naked. I'm just wondering which one it is. If you were a female, you'd have a third reason, but for guys, there's only two.

[Seto_Sora]

Hmmm... I noticed Nate has a nasty habit of putting words into anyone's mouth. LOL Don't let him bother y'all. He doesn't know what he is talking about, so he has to make stuff up. And yes, I have read enough Superman Comics to make me sick of the hero forever. LOL So I happily take my stand with everyone against Dr. Manhattan and Superman! XD

SDG

[Nate]

If you read Superman comics how come you know absolutely nothing about him then?