ROMS not in violation of DMCA?!?

[Mithrandir]

I ran across an aritcle on the LOC site with some interesting caveats to the DMCA. You may be interested.


http://www.copyright.gov/1201/

[inkhana]

That...surely there must be something in the law elsewhere that prohibits that...? (LOL, it sounds just a little too good..he he)

[Mithrandir]

I wen't looking, but I couldn't find anything. That leads me to another question...

Theoretically, if I distribute a hack for a video game, am I commiting a felloney?!?! I mean, I wrote a hack for FF8, so can I get thrown in jail for it?

Granted this probably won't happen, but still... How, er, messed up is that?

[andyroo]

I have a pdf of the summary and the full law if you want it. It's alot more detailed than that page you showed. The summary, I think, is around eight pages long and the full text is around fifty pages.

[Mithrandir]

I'd love to see it. I only have what that branch of the government wasn't too lazy to tell me. Post a link away! (If you don't have a link - either post an attachment, or PM me with it, and I'll post the PDF on one of my servers.)

[andyroo]

Alright. The full law thingy was too large with the summary to upload to this server. So I've uploaded it too my website's server, hope Myrrhlynn doesn't mind. The summary is 18 pages long. Who new it had a one. Feh. Here's the links:
http://www.myrrhlynn.us/animeology/dmca.pdf

http://www.myrrhlynn.us/animeology/H.R._2281-_final_text.pdf

The one with the shorter name is the summary.

[Mithrandir]

If she get's mad...

Short: http://www.flactem.com/dmca.pdf
Long: http://www.flactem.com/long.pdf

(Just to make sure no one cares. I'll let as many people as want download it without caring.)

So if the above URL doesn't work, you can use these....

[andyroo]

Works for me. I hope those are of any help to you in answering some of your questions.

[Technomancer]

Glad I don't have to put up with this law, it was a case study in one of my policy classes (we concluded it sucked). From what it says though, circumvention would be legal but probably not distribution.

[Benu]

So Roms and Emulators are not in violation of DMCA, Or they are? Anyway if they are not that's Cool!!! But the rest of the law sucks!! Who ever wrote this doesn't like technology too much.

[Mithrandir]

LOL. Most of the DMCA was written, if my memory serves me correct, by the RIAA and the MPAA.

[righteous_slave]

I'm too impatient to read all the legalees, but I'll throw my two bits in. If the company is no longer making the software and or hardware, htere is no reason for them to keep the copyright. In cases like this, the only places with a financial interest are used games stores, not the original manufactuer, and there is nothing that says even if i have a stack of emulators i wouldn't go into the local game exchange and buy them if they have the games and systems. Or in the case of arcade games, drop a quarter in the machines if I come across them.

[Mithrandir]

Um... What about Frogger? If the original owner of the copyright didn't keep it, then they would have been paid NOTHING for the 3D frogger game that came out a few years back. There are lots of examples like that. I'd say it qualifies as 'financial interest' personally.

[MasterDias]

I'm too impatient to read all the legalees, but I'll throw my two bits in. If the company is no longer making the software and or hardware, htere is no reason for them to keep the copyright. In cases like this, the only places with a financial interest are used games stores, not the original manufactuer, and there is nothing that says even if i have a stack of emulators i wouldn't go into the local game exchange and buy them if they have the games and systems. Or in the case of arcade games, drop a quarter in the machines if I come across them.

Not totally true. Some games, especially popular ones get ported to another console(Game Boy Advance for example). Thus, companies can still make money off of them.

Of course, most games never do get ported...

[uc pseudonym]

So... what was our verdict in the end? Do ROMS legally considered obsolete violate the DMCA?

[inkhana]

I would say "no," but the trouble is, the definition of "obsolete" is rather sketchy. I think it said something about it being defined as "reasonably available," but the document didn't really detail what that entailed.

[Mithrandir]

...but the document didn't really detail what that entailed.

Heh heh heh. Welcome to Government work. Think about it though. If they spelled it out, then there would be less work for lawyers. They would lose their jobs... Have to live on the street... End up starving to death in a dark alley under the 'help wanted' section of the daily fish wrap and dog swat...

...But there's probably a down side...

Seriously though, ever heard the worlds biggest lie? "Hello there. I'm from the government and I'm here to help you."

[uc pseudonym]

Heh.

Well, this is an interesting development. I'd say a standard NES counts as obsolete. Perhaps I should get an emulator back. Or not. I think I'm going to give this one some time.

[inkhana]

I would think NES was a safe bet, esp since a lot of the battery backups on the old cartridges are dying. But who knows...

[bemanisuperstar]

LOL. Most of the DMCA was written, if my memory serves me correct, by the RIAA and the MPAA.

It's a matter of time before the Courts expose them fro the crooks those 2 are.

Its kinda off subject here but anybody get sued by the RIAA for harmless
shareing (I've bought more music due to downloads this year than I have in the last 2 years)

[Bobtheduck]

Did you actually hack FF8? Actually, technically I did too... Gameshark is a hacking device (it temporarily changes the code in the game or memory of the system) but I mean did you, say, develop a ff8 where a character might say "Call me mr butterfingers!" or something...

As for the RIAA, I do not own a single illegal MP3 anymore... I deleted all of them a while back, and I don't plan on downloading any more... Not so I don't get caught, but because I came to the (personal) conclusion I was stealing... Somehow, my Roms haven't quite made it off (it's like the ring, man... I want to, but I can't... I must take them to mount nintendo deep in the heart of... um... nevermind) I may now that I know I'm not downloading anymore, and I altered the game I wanted on rom anyhow beyond recognition... It's pretty bad... Oh, actually, I didn't alter the old Metal Gear and Solid Snake roms for MSX, the only ones I'm really going to miss (well, those and "Super Marioworld Challenge and Umi Hara Kawase)... Are those considered "Obsolete" it's not like they are makeing remakes anytime soon... Not that many people even know about them, particularly in the US where Metal Gear is more popular than in Japan... If they are considered obsolete, I'd like to know so that I don't dump my MSX emulator tonight... Though I allready dumped my MSX emulator cd for the dreamcast in all the CD's I threw away...

Oh, another game I am going to miss: Final Fantasy 3 (Japan, for Famicom) it's the only game still never released in american shores, and it's not getting a PS release like 1,2,4,5, and 6...

[Benu]

Hmmm....Interresting find I made on the EFF website.

Specifically, EFF had asked the Copyright Office to allow consumers to:

Play copy-protected audio CDs that malfunction to prevent playback
View foreign region-coded DVD movies on U.S. players
Fast-forward through unskippable commercials prior to movies on DVDs
Play and make full use of public domain movies on DVDs

The Copyright Office did grant exemptions for the following activities:

Decoding lists of Web pages or directories blocked by Internet filtering software, also known as censorware. EFF Pioneer Award recipient Seth Finkelstein was instrumental in lobbying for censorware exemptions to the DMCA for each U.S. Copyright Office rulemaking period.
Circumventing obsolete digital rights management devices called dongles that prevent access due to malfunction or damage. The Internet Archive requested this exemption.
Accessing computer programs and video games distributed in obsolete formats. The Internet Archive requested this exemption.
Accessing ebooks for which the publisher has disabled the read-aloud function or the ability to use screen readers to render the text into a specialized format, such as Braille for access by the blind. The American Foundation for the Blind and five major library associations requested this exemption.

These facts were taken from eff.org thought they would be helpful in figuring out the truth about whats "Obsolete" and whats not.

[Mithrandir]

Did you actually hack FF8?

Well, yes and no. I hacked the additions to the PC version of it. Technically, I hacked the interface between when you bring Chicobo back and he gives you goodies. Lots of goodies. Like, say, "STR-UP" type goodies. This is not to say I hacked the CODE, or reverse engineered it, or anything, but it's technically a violation of the DMCA since it's basically a save game modder. But I digress...

[shooraijin]

> I think it said something about it being defined as "reasonably available," but the document didn't really detail what that entailed.

We were talking about that very subject on some of the Commodore lists and newsgroups. From our point of view (though this would definitely be to our detriment), we definitely have a different idea of 'reasonably available' in the classic computing world than in modern PC/Mac terms. It's not very hard for me to come up with a lot of older equipment to run stuff on because I have a lot of contacts, know many smaller outlets and swap areas, and have other deals with other collectors. This definitely isn't what a run-of-the-mill casual retrogamer would call 'reasonably available', however, and it did take me literally years to accrue this kind of background.

I think a lot of the legal wrangling that will inevitably develop once someone claims protection for their ROM or disk image archive under this new tenet of the law will revolve around better definition of this term.

[Fsiphskilm]

I wish.

[lexicalunit]

So Roms and Emulators are not in violation of DMCA, Or they are? Anyway if they are not that's Cool!!! But the rest of the law sucks!! Who ever wrote this doesn't like technology too much.

Emulators are not in violation of the DMCA; this has been tested in court.

ROMs fit into two categories, commercial and non-commercial. Basically if a company is still making a profit or plans to make a profit on a certain game it is a commercial product and distribution of that game's ROM is illegal. If, however, you own said game, making a ROM of it as a backup is not illegal, but learning how to make a ROM is illegal, go figure. If you teach yourself to do it, that's fine, but if someone else tells you how to make a copy or gives you software to make a copy, that's a violation of the DMCA because it bypasses copy protection. If someone gives you hardware that's used in superseding copy protection that is not illegal, it's the software that tells the hardware what to do that is illegal. This has been held up in court, as MOD chips are not in themselves illegal, just the software flashed onto the chips is illegal.

So if you download a copy of Duck Tails for NES that's not really illegal since that's an incredibly old game and is not considered to be commercial. But if you download a copy of the newest Mario game, Nintendo will firebomb your house.

Of course there is a fair amount of leeway on what is deemed commercial and what is non-commercial. This discretion is left up to the courts. Then there's the issue of foreign games, say Joe Bob makes a copy of Nihongo Gaamu Ichi which is not for sale in the USA and then distributes it within the USA. This violates international copyright law, not the DMCA, and international copyright law has basically no enforcement.

[Mithrandir]

Edit: Nevermind. Didn't notice troll-ish-ness.