About Mary Sues pt 2 (not a story)

[Bobtheduck]

Since that thread wasn't the place to discuss this, I'm opening a new thread

The thing is, Fanfiction doesn't allow for much character development or originality. Original characters are seen as "mary sues" (even if it's not a self-insertion or an insertion of a friend) and if you change a known character's personality during the course of the story, it can offend fans. On the other side, many people who are ok with changing the personalities go way off in left field and write just horrible stuff...

I would laugh if people found out how many of the original characters in many the most famous anime and manga were these "mary sue" type characters, both self inserts and getting their friends in the act... A certain no-discuss anime has a central character that essentially is the mouthpiece of the director and the person who wrote the manga. I had heard that treebeard in Lord of the Rings was written out of Tolkien Being in earshot of one of C.S. Lewis' Classes. Authors commonly put themselves in their stories in one way or another, and almost all put their friends and enemies to some extent in their stories.

I guess for me fanfiction is another world that I could never get into. I myself don't like when characters are completely contrary to their personalities in the real story, but see nothing interesting about rehashing the same stuff over and over again. Writing in general is a hard thing to get into, so it's not worth it to me to add the eyes of fans who "know best."

Ah... No one wanted to get involved in my rant. Good work. Meh.

[Toki-chan]

well, I don't want to get into a debate here, but I always thought fanfiction was about either:
1) put the charictors in another situation and to see there reaction to it (which coupling is included in here)
or
2) giving an idea to what could have happened in a part of a show that could have added on to it or to make it an alternive realty....
But some people do get off charictors personalities... but I don't see how you could not like one written to the charictors nature....

But I'm an addict to this stuff so...(ignore my rants when it comes to this, since I need to stop reading as much as I did) And yes, quite often that is what happens to Mary Sues... and considering most authors (at least the ones I know) don't like puting them or reading them, they usually react in this manner

[uc pseudonym]

A Mary Sue is only a self insertion, and technically only a self insertion that strongly favors you (aka giving yourself super powers, making a main character fall in love with you, etc). There are plenty of good original characters (though often they fall into the Mary Sue styled trap of being too powerful).

Your referance to original characters in original works is basically irrelevant... your original characters generally have some of yourself in them. This doesn't mean they're necessarily a self-insertion, nor that this is a bad thing if you do so.

In my mind, Mary Sues are offensive only because they are a way for the author to gratify their own desires. Not because of their inherent nature.

Why must you rehash events for people to be in character? Do you respond exactly the same way to identical circumstances? I certainly don't. Furthermore, you can place characters in situations that never occur in cannon (the purpose, in my mind, of fanfiction).

[Psycho Ann]

Agreed, Mary Sues are basically self-insertions into FANfiction. I still haven't seen a good Mary Sue but there are good original characters that at the most complement the canon cast.

As for self-inserts into original works... well, I'm not one to talk, eh? XD

[Bobtheduck]

In my mind, Mary Sues are offensive only because they are a way for the author to gratify their own desires. Not because of their inherent nature.

Reminds me of a lot of other debates... The "nudity/lust" debate, the gun debate, etc... Only difference being I'm the only one (well, that I can see) on the side of the debate that I'm on.

So, basically you're saying that if the insertion of that person into the story wasn't just to gratify their own desires, it wouldn't be bad? There are people, however, who don't believe it's possible. There are also a lot of people who will immediately stop reading a story if there's a hint of self-insertion.

Why must you rehash events for people to be in character? Do you respond exactly the same way to identical circumstances? I certainly don't. Furthermore, you can place characters in situations that never occur in cannon (the purpose, in my mind, of fanfiction).

But who truely knows what will and won't happen but the creaters, <sarcasm> and, of course, the 1337 fans</sarcasm>

No, actually I agree with you, but I was really being hyperbolic (did I use that term correctly?) and going to another extreme of safety and making sure you stay in character... Because, after all, your minor deviation may not fall in line with another fan's view of that character's personality. I guess it was really just a rant.

In the fanfiction I was writing, none of the canon characters "fell in love" with the character that was essentially me but not really (since my "Robert Magano" aka "bobtheduck" persona is pretty much fictional) They did interact quite a bit, and this character was a catalyst for the large events in the story.

The first time I ever heard the term "Mary Sue" was on TechTV's Anime messageboards. I asked about my character, and someone said it fit the "Mary Sue" definition, even though he wasn't super powerfull and wasn't involved romantically. I think I stayed fairly close to the rules in the Sailormoon universe. I didn't, for instance, convert Rei into a christian or, um, fix two characters. I kept Usagi childlike and loving. I kept Rei the angry protector. The only thing that could have been considered "Mary Sue" was the "Robert Magano" character (I came up with "Magano" because it's similar to "Magamo" and "Magano" is a real name)

I stopped writing it when I was told that was probably a "Mary Sue" type character. I don't really understand it, though. I mean, it sounds like the whole idea of "butane lighters cause Lung cancer" to me. It sounds like there are bad writers out there who just happen to commonly insert themselves into the stories, and so people think it's because of that that the story is bad.

I think a good writer can take all sorts of concepts and make them work, including working themselves into the story. I don't think that changes just because you're working with a story that was allready written. The only thing is, fanfiction doesn't require a comb over by a publishing company. It requires no money to acquire, and as such the normal "weeding out" methods of the novel industry are not present, and a lot more crap gets through. There is going to be a lot of bad fanfiction because, as fans seeing other fans doing it, a lot of people think "anyone can do it" and they write without really having any skill, because they think that all they have to do is string words together in a semi-understandable fashion and they can post it and watch the praise roll in.

Anyhow... It's probably better for me to stay out of the fanfiction life... I have other things that are much more important to worry about... I have other things to WRITE that are much more important to worry about...

As for self-inserts into original work: My projects list included "Level: The Now" It is a fictional story that will revolve around real people... Myself being in the forefront... Oh, I can hear the cringes now. Meh, don't judge it till you see it for yourself.

However, my novel project "The Diamond Spearhead" is on much more stable ground than Level, which is definately an experiment. The main character is similar to me (even though he originally came from my friend...) but that's just normal, I suppose.

[uc pseudonym]

True, there are people who will attack anything that looks vaguely like a self-insertion. I don't think this is correct, but it is quite common. If you write fanfiction, you just deal with it.

I have a piece in the works that features an original character that seems pretty cool and joins the heroes. I honestly hope that someone accuses me of a Mary Sue, as the character is actually one of the two incarnations of the forces that create the universe, and dies quite quickly. Heh.

At this point, I think I'll just let your rant remain a rant for your own benefit.

[Spirit_Wolf8356]

Mary Sue's are especially prominent in series' that have a lot of one gender. Like LOTR fanfictions. I personally don't mind some Mary Sue stories, especially when they're done in the humor genre of things. I know a lot of the things I write, fanfiction-wise, are Mary Sue's, but I write those for my own enjoyment. I wouldn't post them anywhere. One of the stories I do have posted has 3 original characters in them, and so far no one says they're Mary Sue's, but I try to keep them out of the mainstream.

I really only write fanfiction anymore, just to get a feel for my writing, if that makes any sense. I want to be able to make my ideas flow and have people understand them. I'm currently working more on my character development, so fanfiction is the perfect way to do it. You can put your characters into pre-written situations and work around everything to see how they react.

*shrugs* My take on things.