CAA: Christian Anime Alliance

4Kids is worse than we thought.

Manga: Essential of Disposable?


His full speech:

"Um...How do I say this without becoming...I think that the um...right now that the trend that I believe is gonna happen and if you look in the next five or six years - is that we're seeing in the Japanese anime companies. They're looking for co-production partners. They're looking for people who help them localize a show in its inception and create something that has a much more global reach coming out of the market. One of the issues that happens in Japan sometimes is that you get a show that has a lot of Japanese culture built into it. And that culture is hard to translate in France, in Italy, in Spain, in Germany. So what we're seeing now, and especially with the anime...animators - TOEI, uh, especially - where we have a number of joint ventures, we're developing new shows. One of them called Chaotic, for instance, which will be coming out worldwide in September. Which is being produced and written in Japan, but the pre and post was done in the U.S., as opposed to the usually when the pre and post is done in Japan they do it the animation , we get it, we do the post. Now we're doing the pre and post, and we're using them to add the sensibility, the spin, the look. But the story arc or the idea is our idea and it's being done in conjunction with other Japanese companies. So I think that's going to be a process. Every Japanese company I know of is looking for joint venture partners to do that. The second part will be, I think...will be complete co-productions where the...even the intellectual propery is co-owned, which is a totally foreign Japanese concept. They don't wanna give you any copyright, yet all the properties we're currently involved with are co-copyright holders. We own them in perpetuity - we won't go through another Pokemon experience - and, y'know, we will end up working more colla...more collaboratively with the Japanese to create something that can spin out for a long time.

My manga comment is...I think manga is a problem. It's a problem because we're in a culture that is not a reading culture. The kids today don't read. They never...they read less today. Every survey...they're watching more television, they're on the Internet more; and that content, although being king, is very disposable. Because the way content gets put out now, it's going to be put out free. More and more content will be available for free. You'll go to the Internet, you'll be able to download as many...we're-we're streaming most of our shows. The reason why we're streaming them: we want kids to watch them as much as they can so they get invested in a concept and go out and buy products. The products ain't free. The content is going to be free. And manga, in my mind, is trying to put a square...um...y'know, a square peg into a round hole in the United States. It will never be a big deal here. For kids that are into the computer, or the Internet generation. They're not going to read. They haven't read, so they're not gonna start now."

Wow. That's all I have to say.

The kids today don't read. They never...they read less today. Every survey...they're watching more television, they're on the Internet more

Oh yeah, because there's no reading on the internet whatsoever. Nope, you don't have to know how to type in a web address, or read a hyperlink, or...oh wait. My bad. EVERYTHING on the internet involves reading.

Al Kahn is a complete moron.

And I agree with the article. If kids aren't reading, then manga is the perfect thing to get them to START reading. I think it's funny how the article says librarians were booing him. Maybe if he realizes nobody likes him he'll go away.

Exactly. And perhaps (most definetly) their most recent addition (Pretty Cure) will strengthen the hate for them and lead to their (long-awaited) downfall.

As a writer, a reader, and a person who spends a good amount of her time pouring over manga in both English and Japanese....I feel absolutely sickened by that comment. Absolutely sickened.

HOW does this guy's head work? A square peg into a round hole? Then explain to me WHY, in my 6+ years of following manga, I have seen the manga section grow from a half a bookshelf to 10+ bookshelves in Borders?

Perhaps he can't read... or he's just greedy... or stupid... or all three.

Oh, and apparently this is the actual speech (complete with laughter and booing) though I haven't listened to it yet:

http://ia300224.us.archive.org/2/items/ ... 2Manga.mp3

Ah yes, I remember this article in the Arlong Park forums.

I would advise you guys don`t use the ad hominen facilcy (aka calling him an idiot irrelevantly when you really hate what he said not who he was). Questioning his motives to say such things is acceptible but calling him an "Idiot" is not nesscary.

What he said was clearly stupid, but you are no smarter than he is.
I am at fault for this with Politicians.

Sorry guys for being against you all, but the reason I`m so passionate about this is because I got in trouble for this very thing (not the same guy specifically, but for mocking someone).

I'm getting t3h 404 on the clip, Myoti. =0

Tom Dincht wrote:I would advise you guys don`t use the ad hominen facilcy (aka calling him an idiot irrelevantly when you really hate what he said not who he was).

Actually, ad hominem is saying a person's argument is unsound because of who he is. That's not what we're doing.

We are taking what he said and making a judgement about him based on what he says. He says stupid things, therefore he is stupid. Ad hominem is saying that a person is stupid, therefore he says stupid things, which IS a fallacy.

Example of ad hominem fallacy:

"You claim that this man is innocent, but you cannot be trusted since you are a criminal as well."

"You feel that abortion should be legal, but I disagree because you are uneducated and poor."

Ironically, accusing an opponent of ad hominem can itself be an example of ad hominem if it is worded as an insult: "I'm not going to stand here and let him insult me!" or "My opponent is resorting to logical fallacy to win." or "Since he is out of good argument, he's attacking me."

Please understand the meanings of words before you throw them around.

What he said was clearly stupid, but you are no smarter than he is.

How do you know? It's very likely that I am quite smarter than he is. I don't know for a fact, but considering what he has done with Japan's most popular anime property, it's fairly obvious that I am at least somewhat smarter than he is.

I don`t think ruining or saving an Anime company is what truly indicates how "Smart" you are. You don`t know what intentions he had for doing so other than making money. Coming up with schemes to make money is a sign of intelligence, not stupidity. Unless he is loosing money, which I highly doubt.

I personally think the company hired him to say that and tried to hide it with the constant "Umm..."`s and crap.

And some people are smart in some categories while others are smart in other categories. I`m sure you have said stupid things without thinking through. That`s obviously what he and Jessica Simspon and Kanye West, and MANY OTHER PEOPLE HAVE DONE.

Tom Dincht wrote:I personally think the company hired him to say that and tried to hide it with the constant "Umm..."`s and crap.

Not to be contentious, but what purpose would saying something like that serve? As a publicity stunt? Yes, maybe, but it's not making people buy their products or watch their shows. Quite the opposite, I would wager. That statement angered a lot of people and it's sure NOT making 4Kids look good. Either way, whether he was told to say that or whether he said that on his own accord, it was NOT a smart move.

Tom Dincht wrote:Coming up with schemes to make money is a sign of intelligence, not stupidity. Unless he is loosing money, which I highly doubt.

One Piece the dubbed version is one of the lowest ranking shows on American TV. Even FILBERT beat out One Piece the dub on Saturday mornings. Compare this to Japan where One Piece was as popular as (if not MORE popular than) Dragonball Z.

It is safe to assume his idiocy destroyed this awesome anime property. If he was trying to make money, he failed miserably.

I personally think the company hired him to say that and tried to hide it with the constant "Umm..."`s and crap.

Kodai's right. Why would the company hire him to make librarians and teachers angry? It's going to reflect poorly on the company and isn't a smart business move. Since businesses are around to make money, no business would pay a man to make statements that would cause them to lose money.

I`m sure you have said stupid things without thinking through.

Yes, I have. However, I am smart enough to say, "Whoops, that was dumb of me to say, I must not have been thinking." My stupid things are a result of my mouth talking faster than my brain or having incorrect facts.

Running an anime company so poorly that an anime that should have been more popular than DBZ flops horribly is not a person's mouth talking faster than their brain or having incorrect facts. It is nothing but sheer idiocy.

*Looks at article, begins laughing hysterically!* Oh! YEAH! The largest growing section of the book industry several years in a row is never going to catch on in America. Afterall, look at how many years companies have been trying to push manga on the American public, but still we don't see manga in American book stores.

Oh wait.

ROFL, Apparently, the future leaders of America will be uneducated and bad readers. XD According to this guy, anyways. He should stop talking and go hide in a bush.

I thought it was funny in the interview how he mentioned kids don't read, and instead of DOING something about it, he said he was hoping for 4Kids to be the "leader in digital entertainment." So he basically said "Instead of helping kids to read more, we're going to give them more TV shows so they become even more illiterate."

I also didn't like his statements about the show just being a vehicle to advertise products. Somewhere in there he said something about "The show is free, but the merchandise costs money, and that's where we want to be." So basically he wants cartoons to be half-hour commercials for toys like they were in the 80s. Blah.

Just a friendly administrative reminder that both trivial argument (I don't mean that as an insult to anyone involved) and person-bashing are frowned upon. Please keep everything civil.

Personally, I think his statements are shameful and I would be surprised if there wasn't some sort of retraction. To say that functional illiteracy is a problem (even to exaggerate the problem) is one thing, but to brush this off and essentially stand in support of it is quite another.

My newspaper had a big article today about the growing popularity of shojo manga among American girls. If that article is even close to accurate, manga popularity won't be going down for a long time.

*reads article and shakes head*

Al Kahn noted that quality intellectual property will reign supreme no matter where it comes from.

Anyone else find this depressingly funny?

I never liked those guys...

Now we're doing the pre and post, and we're using them to add the sensibility, the spin, the look.

I've been wondering what this meant exactly. Is he trying to say that cartoons produced entirely in Japan have no sensibility?

Anyone else find this depressingly funny?

And a slight bit ironic.

Personally, I think his statements are shameful and I would be surprised if there wasn't some sort of retraction.

Librarians were booing him. How's that?

And so were authors for kid`s books.....

And the Poopsmith was mad too.

kaemmerite wrote:I've been wondering what this meant exactly. Is he trying to say that cartoons produced entirely in Japan have no sensibility?

I think he's trying to say that most American audiences don't catch some of the Japanese culture-centric references in anime and manga. Which is true, unless you understand what someone's talking about you can be lost in references from other cultures. However, I think that removing the cultural aspect of these things is a really bad idea. Every time I have seen an anime try to change cultural references between a dub and a sub, the attempted "localization" to the US just doesn't seem to work in context. Plus, look at British television, plays, or whatnot. I know that there are things in Monty Python or Gilbert and Sullivan I don't understand because they are from a different time and/or a different culture, but removing them takes away from the fun of the show itself. Also, once you start to like something you pick up these previously arcane references and it adds to your enjoyment of it.

The way I look at it they should just let the American consumer vote with their wallets rather than assuming we all want to see and hear things which are entirely familiar. The market for anime seems to be booming, and the bulk of the shows that seem to be popular are not regionalized in the fashion this guy is talking about. Why mess with success? The company is welcome to try, but they should realize that this can be a risky business.

Ok. While i'm not really into anime anymore i've heard plenty about 4Kids. Know where I heard about their "stupidity"? Here. This site. And guess what? ONLY from this site. And guess what else? I've seen many posts bashing on the dumb stuff other companies have done too. Why not post something positive? Complaining is so tedious. If you don't like 4Kids, then they don't need your patronage.

BigZam wrote:Ok. While i'm not really into anime anymore i've heard plenty about 4Kids. Know where I heard about their "stupidity"? Here. This site. And guess what? ONLY from this site. And guess what else? I've seen many posts bashing on the dumb stuff other companies have done too. Why not post something positive? Complaining is so tedious. If you don't like 4Kids, then they don't need your patronage.

I don't know what sites you go to. But, virtually every anime forum that I've ever seen or been to has complained about/bashed/criticized/disliked 4kids entertainment; Anime News Network, AoD, Toonzone, etc.etc. None of them like 4kids, not just this site.
Until 4kids actually does something right, instead of completely butchering series, almost delibrately miscasting characters, cutting out entire story arcs, making pointless edits that waste time and money, or refusing to release uncut DVDs despite the fact that they are proven to outsell the edited ones, you aren't going to hear positive things about 4kids Entertainment or Al Khan. None of the "dumb stuff" other companies have done can really compare to what 4kids has done.

As for Khan's statements, if this keeps up, one of these days he is going to say something...and really offend the wrong people, not just librarians.

Manga is a great way to get kids reading again, the stories which are classified under fantasy like Harry Potter and LOTR are things that appeal to kids imaginations and get them to read. I think manga will continue to gorw more and more popular, but never really mainstream, again because it is in the fantasy genre. I can;t beleive how many new series get liscensed al lthe time and it makes me happy! ^^

What MasterDias said pretty much covers it, BigZam. Heck, even alot of users on the 4Kids Forums hate the company (we go there to tell the people the truth, but they don't... listen much :p ).

There's really nothing good to say about them.

What has 4kids dubbed other than One Piece? I am honestly asking, as I am not certain, though I could presume they dubbed other Fox titles such as SonicX and Tokyo Mew Mew.

uc pseudonym wrote:What has 4kids dubbed other than One Piece? I am honestly asking, as I am not certain, though I could presume they dubbed other Fox titles such as SonicX and Tokyo Mew Mew.

Tokyo Mew Mew, Pokemon, Shaman King, and Yuugioh I know for sure, though there might have been others.

This isn't a complete list, but here are the anime they've done. They've produced and localized more shows than this, but I'm keeping the list solely focused on the Japanese ones:

* Magical DoReMi (Ojamajo Doremi) (August 13, 2005 - present)
* Mew Mew Power (Tokyo Mew Mew) (February 19, 2005 - present)
* One Piece (September 2004 - present)
* Pokémon (Pocket Monsters/Pocket Monsters Advanced Generation) (September 1998 - present; as of 2006 the Pokémon license has been transferred to Pokémon USA)
* Pokémon Chronicles
* Pretty Cure (Futari wa Pretty Cure/Futari wa Precure; licensing announced on February 24, 2006 )
* Sonic X (September 6, 2003 - present, VIZ Media owns the license and contracts the dubbing to 4Kids; ShoPro Entertainment held the license until they merged with VIZ, LLC to form VIZ Media)
* Yu-Gi-Oh!
* Yu-Gi-Oh! GX

The following TV programs have ended or expired but were handled by 4Kids Entertainment during their run:

* Fighting Foodons (September 14-December 2002, Enoki Films had the license and contracted the dubbing to 4Kids)
* F-Zero GP Legend (September 4, 2004-March 5, 2005)
* Kirby: Right Back at Ya! (September 14, 2002-July 2005) (Was put on hiatus various times)
* Shaman King (September 6, 2003-September 3, 2005)
* Tama and Friends
* Ultimate Muscle (September 14, 2002-May 22, 2004)
* Ultraman Tiga (September 14, 2002-December 2002)