CAA: Christian Anime Alliance

What's you guys' opinions on dragons?
Real, myth? Cool, horrid? Intelligent vs not? Big vs small? Too generic in fantasy? Biblical? All that kind of stuff.

Dragons are mythical but based on what people thousands (and possibly hundreds) of years ago saw in dinosaurs. Size doesn't matter, although the bigger dragons seem to be more popular. I think there are examples in the Bible of dinosaur-type creatures that could've been seen as dragons - the Leviathan (it's not a crocodile or whale!) and the Behemoth (it's not an elephant or hippo!) for one. Dragons have been over-used in fantasy but that's because people aren't broadening their horizons. There is such a thing as too much of a good thing. Personally, I'd like to see more creative takes on dragons.

I love them. I do think that they're a little over-used in fantasy, but I enjoy them nonetheless.

... I even have one of those big color-picture books about dragons, that has 'letters' for various people detailing their encounters with dragons! It's so great!

I love Dragons too! They're pretty cool! I tend to like the smaller dragons, though any size is good.
My favorite fantasy books about Dragons is the inheritance series. I think The Author was acctually more creative with his dragons than most. My only complaint is that so far in the series, we've only properly met 2, although they say Book Four will have more Thorn in it

Dragons are the things of awesome epic suprise in your face ness with wings and shinny teeth and rawrr big nesss of smashing things woot x3

Lynna (post: 1451698) wrote:My favorite fantasy books about Dragons is the inheritance series. I think The Author was acctually more creative with his dragons than most.

He's not, really. I've come across very similar depictions in other, older books.

Obviously dragons never existed, but they exist IN OUR HEARTS!

I think they're pretty cool though. I'm also a very big fan of intelligent dragons as opposed to savage beast dragons. I think that's probably closer to what dragons are "supposed to be" in a sense. I mean if you have a creature that's been alive for thousands or millions of years, it's gotta be pretty smart, right?

the Leviathan (it's not a crocodile or whale!) and the Behemoth (it's not an elephant or hippo!)

Man why does everyone always forget Ziz? Ziz completes the trilogy of the Behemoth (primal monster of land), Leviathan (primal monster of sea), and Ziz (primal monster of air/sky).

Though I suppose Ziz did it to himself. He isn't mentioned during their creation, and he's not even going to be present at the epic battle at the end of time where Leviathan and Behemoth duke it out and then God kills them both and feeds His people with their meat and uses Leviathan's skin to make tents. Maybe Ziz is just chillin' during all this.

Nate (post: 1451707) wrote:Though I suppose Ziz did it to himself. He isn't mentioned during their creation, and he's not even going to be present at the epic battle at the end of time where Leviathan and Behemoth duke it out and then God kills them both and feeds His people with their meat and uses Leviathan's skin to make tents. Maybe Ziz is just chillin' during all this.

Chillin'... and waiting for his opportunity to take their lands for himself. He shall be the ruler of all! Bwahahahaha! Sorry, it just is so very evil villain right there, that I would love to know what Ziz's deal/plan is

Atria35 (post: 1451716) wrote:Chillin'... and waiting for his opportunity to take their lands for himself. He shall be the ruler of all! Bwahahahaha! Sorry, it just is so very evil villain right there, that I would love to know what Ziz's deal/plan is

Man why does everyone always forget Ziz? Ziz completes the trilogy of the Behemoth (primal monster of land), Leviathan (primal monster of sea), and Ziz (primal monster of air/sky).

What is thiz Ziz? I've never heard of it but it must be awesome!!

And true, the Inheritance series wasn't as creative as it could be, but I still liked the way the dragons were portrayed. I do like intelligent Dragons better than beasts. Beasts are boring, unless they're cute ^_^

Nate (post: 1451707) wrote:Obviously dragons never existed, but they exist IN OUR HEARTS!

You are my hero.

While I like dragons, I haven't read anything with one in quite a while. As far as the Beast or Intelligent goes, I'm actually a pretty big fan of the Saint George-type.

Lynna wrote:What is thiz Ziz? I've never heard of it but it must be awesome!!

Like Leviathan and Behemoth, Ziz is a bit of Jewish mythology that we as Christians don't know much about. Like I said, Leviathan was the beast of the sea, Behemoth was the beast of the land, and Ziz was the beast of the air.

It's kind of like a griffin type deal. And I guess Ziz doesn't get out easily at the end times either. Quick Google search:

"The ziz is a giant bird in Jewish mythology, said to be large enough to be able to block out the sun with its wingspan. According to Hebrew tradition, the meat of this bird will be served as a meal, along with the behemoth and the leviathan, in the banquet at End Times."

Here's a picture of Ziz, Behemoth, and Leviathan. Or well y'know...an ancient painting depicting them.

Nate (post: 1451737) wrote:Like Leviathan and Behemoth, Ziz is a bit of Jewish mythology that we as Christians don't know much about. Like I said, Leviathan was the beast of the sea, Behemoth was the beast of the land, and Ziz was the beast of the air.

It's kind of like a griffin type deal. And I guess Ziz doesn't get out easily at the end times either. Quick Google search:

"The ziz is a giant bird in Jewish mythology, said to be large enough to be able to block out the sun with its wingspan. According to Hebrew tradition, the meat of this bird will be served as a meal, along with the behemoth and the leviathan, in the banquet at End Times."

Here's a picture of Ziz, Behemoth, and Leviathan. Or well y'know...an ancient painting depicting them.

It looks exactly like a griffin to me...but then, it is just a depiction. That's awesome though!

Imma be one when I grow up.

I'm not a huge fan on them, I'll take them or leave them, unless it's Fire Emblem, in which case, I leave them, they're useless, and in Shining Force I take them, for they are tank.

Furen (post: 1451776) wrote:I'm not a huge fan on them, I'll take them or leave them, unless it's Fire Emblem, in which case, I leave them, they're useless, and in Shining Force I take them, for they are tank.

I'm not sure which Fire Emblem game you've been playing, Myrrh can pretty much oneshot anything, and Nasir is pretty much unstoppable.

Imho, dragons are what were real. Dinosaurs weren't actually invented untill the last 100 years sometime by scientists who in their infinite wisdom and creativity named them "terrible lizards". Biblical and extra Biblical accounts, fossils, and other neat stuff are evidence of their existance, and there has been some advancement in theories explaining the ones that breathe fire.

XD That's a pretty good one. Though I personally like "Ezekiel chapter 1 is talking about an alien spacecraft!" better.

I love dragons. My favorite stories about them include (in no order):
1. The Reluctant Dragon
2. Pete's Dragon (it's actually under-rated, IMO)
3. The Hobbit
4. The Voyage of the Dawn Treader (hey, Eustace turned into one, it counts)
5. Spirited Away
6. The Wheel of Time (well, Rand is called The Dragon Reborn...)
7. Dragonriders of Pern (so far, I've only read 2)
8. Dragon Rider by Cornelia Funke (One of her best books)
9. um, I forget, did Harry Potter have one?
10. Legend of the Water Horse (the Loch Ness Monster's kinda like a dragon in this story, so it counts)
11. The Book of Revelation (it so counts)
I think that's it.

You enjoy Anne McAffrey's Dragon books? More power to you. I tried reading one, got 100 pages, was bored stiff and dropped it.
Yes, Both HP and the Goblet of Fire and HP and the Deathly Hallows feature dragons (the former for longer than the latter book).

Dragons are awesome!! Of course i would say that.lol

But how could you avoid this other quote from [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ziz]Wikipedia[/QUOTE] Nate?

The Ziz is an awesome, fiasco-prone, but kind-hearted creature who learns important lessons from God.

Nate, interesting. I've never heard of a Ziz before. Thanks. That ancient mural is a bit confusing though. It shows a giant fish (presumably the Leviathan), a gryphon (presumably the Ziz) and a cow? I don't care which way you look at it, a cow is not a Behemoth. The description in Job doesn't fit and cows would've been common place to the Hebrew people, hardly something to provoke awe at God's majestic creation.

It's more like an ox, but yeah, that's Behemoth. I don't see how it doesn't fit the description though. I mean Ziz looks like a lion with wings. If you can accept that, then I'm sure for a sufficiently large enough ox, its tail would be like a cedar. :p I mean if I was like 50 feet tall my arms would probably be like a cedar Maybe even a redwood.

Although Wikipedia says that the whole "tail" thing could actually mean another thing. I probably shouldn't say it publicly but me saying that should give you a pretty good idea. XD Apparently it has to do with the words describing the "tail" also being able to mean other things in Hebrew.

I don't really like them, as they are usually not written into the story very well. I also find them to be mythological, as I don't think there is sufficient evidence that mankind walked the earth with the dinosaurs. I mean, there are vampire myths on every continent too, and I don't see too many people claiming that they were real.

Cognitive Gear (post: 1452053) wrote:I don't really like them, as they are usually not written into the story very well.

If something about dragons in a story doesn't work, it could potentially be improved. HOW they are improved depends on what about them you didn't like. So that's my first question to you.

Cognitive Gear (post: 1452053) wrote:I don't think there is sufficient evidence that mankind walked the earth with the dinosaurs.

Possibly true. But absence of evidence isn't opposing evidence either.

I take it you don't believe dinosaurs might have breathed fire at one time?

ABlipinTime (post: 1452132) wrote:If something about dragons in a story doesn't work, it could potentially be improved. HOW they are improved depends on what about them you didn't like. So that's my first question to you.

Generally speaking, they don't bring anything unique to the story, despite being very unique creatures. Much of modern fiction seems to suffer from having things in the world or story just because the author likes that thing.

Possibly true. But absence of evidence isn't opposing evidence either.

I take it you don't believe dinosaurs might have breathed fire at one time?

I suppose that you could say that dinosaurs still walk the earth, in the sense that birds are classified, in a way, as dinosaurs.

As far as the fire breathing, I am not aware of any evidence that would suggest such a thing. I would be willing to believe it if we discover evidence of both the biological system and need for such a thing to have occurred.

ABlipinTime wrote:But absence of evidence isn't opposing evidence either.

I hate this phrase because it can be used to justify any stupid idiotic statement.

It's the equivalent of "You can't prove that there AREN'T underwear gnomes stealing my boxers at night!" or "You can't prove that mankind ISN'T an experimental life form created by aliens!"

Plus I'd hate to think if the criminal justice system worked that way. "There's no evidence that you didn't murder this guy so you're under arrest for murder."

Nate (post: 1452213) wrote:I hate this phrase because it can be used to justify any stupid idiotic statement.

It's the equivalent of "You can't prove that there AREN'T underwear gnomes stealing my boxers at night!" or "You can't prove that mankind ISN'T an experimental life form created by aliens!"

Plus I'd hate to think if the criminal justice system worked that way. "There's no evidence that you didn't murder this guy so you're under arrest for murder."

It's a perfectly valid philosophical statement. I'm not saying the possibility is high for such-and-such, but that there is nevertheless a possibility.

Now, I could return fire and say that I hate the response "I hate this phrase because it can be used to justify any stupid idiotic statement" because it's used to justify ignorance, but that would only promote mudslinging and bring us off topic.

So, let's try to stay ON topic and not get on philosophical tangents, shall we?

Now, I know that discussion of whether dragons are real or mythical is part of the premise of this thread, but can we do that without getting worked up? Honestly, dragons of all topics... Now, I know this has potential connections to cosmology (young earth vs. old earth) and that topic is specifically disallowed...but let's think about the reason it's disallowed, and follow the spirit of the rule in addition to the letter, yeah?

(EDIT: Sorry, I sorta jumped the gun with that message there. Doesn't mean it isn't good advice, but I apologize for getting, for lack of a better phrase, worked up about it :)

Anyway, here's an interesting topic: What do you think of the contrast between western imagery of dragons (fat and lizard-like) and eastern imagery of dragons (long and snake-like)?

Midori (post: 1452243) wrote:Anyway, here's an interesting topic: What do you think of the contrast between western imagery of dragons (fat and lizard-like) and eastern imagery of dragons (long and snake-like)?

I admit it- I'm fonder of the Eastern depiction. Lizards don't freak me out, but snakes do, so there's more to the imagery that works for me. And I can add wings to them as I please.

It also freaks me out a buf more since being sleek means they can get into smaller and tighter places- less places for me to hide if one were coming after me!