CAA: Christian Anime Alliance

I just seen where Japan sentenced a teenager who was 18 when he commited a double murder of his girlfreind and her sister when she tried to break up with him. The teen is now 19.
I know in our area there is a boy 14 who killed a teacher at a youth detention center. The state is trying to decide how to work out the way to go to trial on this one.
In Japan anyone under the age of 20 is a minor.
This is the one of the trials that a jury has been used. Most trials have been judged by a set of judges.

This has large potential to turn into an ugly political debate, so I'm dropping an official moderator warning here. If we get uncomfortable with this thread we may lock it. That said, don't be afraid to voice your opinions as long as you're respectful.

I'm going to be honest here. I'm not a big fan of the death penalty. I'm not sure how it works in Japan, but here in America it seems to mostly be a tool of vengeance for the victims of the family.

It costs more to sentence someone to death than it takes to keep them in prison for life. Not to mention the high rate of error that comes with the death penalty. We can spend our tax dollars on better things than the death penalty.

I agree with Midori.
@Yamamaya: The Death Penalty when used in the correct circumstance is none of the above mentioned. The unfortuneate being that our current system could never execute it.
I spend a lot of time with old timers, most of them Vets, and the reason they give for the Death Penalty is, "No repeat offenders." If this Japanese guy was to hook-up then break up with another girl, he has deadly potential. Maybe that was what the Japanese legal system decided.

From what more I read of this, the young man admitted to the court he had done the deed and the judge decided his fate.

Well, justice is something that people ought to have, but I always hesitate before I look at a case as necessary for the death penalty.

If a man is a serial pedophile or rapist, there is no real way for him to repay or fix what he's done, and there is no likelihood of him changing his ways. The only real way to have some sort of justice that satisfies anybody is to kill him off.

That said, some murders are crimes of passion, yet are still atrocious enough for it. There have been men and women who killed off their entire families because of unfaithfulness on the part of one - was that really called for? Absolutely not. Neither is killing a girl AND her sister just because she's broken up with you.

I don't know all the details, but I definitely understand where the legal system is coming from.

This is very sad, as all human deaths are.

Also I would like to note that my opinions on the death penalty largely come from theological grounds rather than legal. More importantly, I must be opposed to it in order to remain ideologically, theologically, and morally consistent.

After all, Paul was a murderer (of Christians, no less), and was used by God in a powerful way. I can't imagine where Christianity would be today if it weren't for the forgiveness offered to Paul by the early Christians.

bkilbour wrote:If a man is a serial pedophile or rapist, there is no real way for him to repay or fix what he's done, and there is no likelihood of him changing his ways.

I disagree. Chemical neutering and/or libido suppressants actually work fairly well, from what I've heard. Further, the rate of repeat child molesters is low according to studies done (though I couldn't tell you specifically where I read them).

Also, please do not use the word "pedophile" as a substitute for "child molester/rapist." They are two very different things. Not all pedophiles rape or molest children, and not all child rapists/molesters are pedophiles.

The only real way to have some sort of justice that satisfies anybody is to kill him off.

I wasn't aware justice was about satisfying people.

But I'm with Phil on this one. I am completely opposed to the death penalty in all circumstances. I cannot think of any crime that would warrant the taking of a life of a person. Taking a person's life will not restore any victims of his crimes, and the only reason I can see for the death penalty is a sick, twisted form of "That guy got what he deserved." Which as a Christian, I cannot support, as all of us deserve Hell for our sins, and yet, we do not go to Hell, because we repent and ask for forgiveness, and God is good and forgives. No matter how many times we sin against Him.

Now obviously I'm not saying criminals shouldn't be punished, and for very severe cases, life imprisonment seems to be a fitting punishment. I really can't think of any reason to sentence someone to death that life imprisonment would not also be solved by life imprisonment.

Yamamaya (post: 1439555) wrote:It costs more to sentence someone to death than it takes to keep them in prison for life. Not to mention the high rate of error that comes with the death penalty. We can spend our tax dollars on better things than the death penalty.

That's usually because life in prison doesn't mean life in prison. Which makes me wonder why we still call that sentence "life in prison" if all we really mean is many years in prison. If we really sentenced people to life with no parole or amnesty, then the death penalty would be cheaper.

Generally, I think that if we aren't going to have the death penalty then life in prison should mean life in prison with exceptions for cases where new evidence proves someones innocence. While it would cost a lot more with our current system, I think it would allow for some redemption from people and not result in the killing of innocent people for justice.

I agree for the most part with Nate and Cog. I heard about this guy who killed 6 people and then became a christian in Jail.
I think the deaths of these girls are horribly sad ad outrageos, but vengance is not ours, it's God's.

This makes me sad. I second Phil's comment. As Christians, we have a moral obligation to be opposed of all forms of capital punishment; as well as war and other actions which result in the death of another person save for perhaps when it's a matter of compassion.

There are some things worse than death.

Not all pedophiles rape or molest children, and not all child rapists/molesters are pedophiles.

I could see the former being true, but wouldn't you have to be a pedo to do the latter?

I was going to answer your question but I don't want to start talking about this subject publicly so I'll PM you.

[quote="Mr. SmartyPants (post: 1439605)"]This makes me sad. I second Phil's comment. As Christians, we have a moral obligation to be opposed of all forms of capital punishment]

Eh...I wouldn't go that far. For one, we see consistently in scripture places where God uses countries to carry out his judgment on Israel and vice versa. In fact, come to think of it, it seems we still carry this theology today just in a different form. I've heard numerous times people equate acts of compassion from people as miracles or acts of God. This seems to parallel what I mentioned earlier in the fact that an act by humanity is equated to an act by God. It seems consistent to me to keep that old idea as well if we are going to keep this newer idea however, obviously, we should never equate a current event to something God has willed. But I'm just thinking out loud really.

The big reason I wouldn't go this far is that there are too many exceptions that I can think of where, if someone killed someone, it wouldn't be looked at as being immoral. The common example is usually self defense such as if a person breaks into your house and threatens you and your family. Augustine's concept of just war runs off of this. I really don't think there is anything wrong with a country defending itself and I don't think God would see any problem with it. In fact, Luke 22:36 seems to be suggesting this very thing by Jesus' command for his disciples to buy a sword. So, what I'm saying is, depends on the situation.

I agree with Peanut. I think in self-defense cases, I hesitate to say killing is "ok", but if someone is truly intent on killing you then killing them may be the only way to stop them, unless you are skilled enough to take out all their limbs before they can kill you. As for capital punishment I view it the same way. If a guy is sorry for his actions or it appears he won't do it again there is no reason to kill him, but if there is no way for them to turn around and them being released will more than likely result in more crime and death, I know I personally would want a faster death rather than to rot in a cell the entire rest of my life. So, I know I'm treading on shaky ground when I say this and please don't take offense, but I think for someone who has no intent of changing their ways, capital punishment seems humane to me, because I would prefer a faster death over a slow one. Just like we put down dogs who are going to die rather than just let them die.

1. In judging that a person is unwilling to change, you're claiming a prescience that the guilty will not at that point in time and thereafter until he dies is unwilling to or unable to be rehabilitated.
2. A lot of people forget that the justice system is not only to meant to punish wrongdoing, but to prevent excessive retribution against the guilty.
3. I wasn't aware that Japan still had the death penalty, and I wonder what that means with their famously high, near-100% conviction rate.

blkmage (post: 1439624) wrote:3. I wasn't aware that Japan still had the death penalty, and I wonder what that means with their famously high, near-100% conviction rate.

Apparently it either isn't used much, or the number of murders that happen in a year is incredibly low.
This interactive map offers some hard numbers by year.

I agree with Nate and Phil. I cannot support the death penalty --all people have value --even those who are murderers/have committed other severe crimes. I cannot justify taking someone's life because they have taken a life/lives. It doesn't sit well with me --it's like saying that the person forfeited their worth and humanity by killing someone.

I've volunteered with the Bill Glass prison ministry on several occasions. And I can tell you that even these people who society deems "beyond hope" can have their lives turned around by the Lord. I've heard stories of mass murderers coming to Christ after hearing the Gospel in prison --and then turning around and start sharing Christ like crazy with the other inmates. So nobody is ever beyond hope of redemption.

I do believe that people should be punished for their crimes --and agree that life in prison (truly life) is a fitting punishment over death. The death penalty just seems to carry that old mindset of "an eye for an eye" --which Jesus talked about that doesn't really apply anymore in the New Covenant.

I dunno, prison doesn't sound like that much of a punishment to me. Free rent, free food, free clothes, free cable...

ShiroiHikari (post: 1439634) wrote:I dunno, prison doesn't sound like that much of a punishment to me. Free rent, free food, free clothes, free cable...

It's not an easy place to live. You can't even have a regular toothbrush --you have to have a little stubby one that you can't turn into a weapon. And they tell you when to eat, when to get on your bunk for count, where to go and when. You have to give up a lot of your freedoms when you go into prison.

Being separated from my friends and loved ones --and not being free to come and go and do things like on the outside--all that sounds like a pretty harsh punishment to me.

I'll put in my 2 cents on this. I too am not a supporter of the death penalty. But thinking on this, there are times when this should applied. I understand that as a Christian, all life, whether a pastor or a serial murderer, is precious to God and the option of taking a life should be the dead last option anyone should have to make. However, if the person has committed an unbelievable crime, human trafficking for example, and has known friends in high places, it's better to end him. Reason being is that the prisoner on death row WILL find a way to get his message out or has already made plans on escape and continue his crime spree. The result being an organization becoming disorganized and become sloppy. Make them easier to track and put them behind bars. "It's better to kill one then it is to kill many." Might as well be the leader.

You can say I don't exactly support it but have an idea of when it should be applied. Oh so very rarely used, ideally not used at all.

Having a mother who has a husband in prison, I can tell you that prison is not a paradise of free recreation like some people would have you believe. For example, the last few times they let inmates out freely at the prison my mom's husband is at, people were killed. When an inmate gets killed, guess what happens? The prison goes on lockdown. Lockdown means you don't get to leave your cell. AT ALL. This means no phone calls, TV, showers, or any other perks. And they would go on lockdown for weeks at a time.

In addition, you're separated from your family in there. That may not seem like a big deal if someone doesn't have a family, but to those who do, it doesn't matter how much free privileges they get...they only get to see their family a couple of hours a week.

Oh yeah, and the food? Sucks. Prisoners do not get quality food. The inmates at the prison my mom's husband is at had to fill out paperwork, repeatedly, to get the cafeteria to stop serving rotten potatoes. We're talking over the course of two months to get edible potatoes.

And they don't get to watch whatever they want on TV. They usually get to see the news, and that's about it, because seriously, you want to let prisoners not understand anything about the world going on outside while they're locked up? Occasionally they get to watch a movie, but it's not often, and again, it's a privilege which means it gets easily taken away in the event of a fight, argument, anything.

I don't know about you, but constantly living in fear of your life, eating terrible food, and sometimes being forced to not be able to do anything but sit in your cell and stare at the wall is hardly, HARDLY what I would consider the easy life. Most of the stories you hear of free weight room access and cable TV lounges and free Xboxes is from minimum security prisons, which are a bit different from ACTUAL prisons.

And yes, it is true that there are people who are willing to commit crimes to go back to jail. Not because it's so nice there, but because it's the only place they know they can go that they will get taken care of. Because let me tell you, having a criminal record does NOT get you hired at most companies. In fact my mom flat out asked the Dollar General warehouse here "Would you hire someone if they'd been in prison?" Their answer: "Nope." When society seems dead-set against allowing former criminals to have anything resembling a regular life even after they've served their time, what do you expect from them? They know crime will pay until they get caught, and if they do get caught, they have a roof over their head and something to eat, even if they have to worry about getting shivved in the shower and the food is rotten. To me, that says more about society and how we treat the lower class than it does the quality of our prisons.

EDIT: Ah ha, Sheenar got to it before I did. Thanks Sheenar. XD

However, if the person has committed an unbelievable crime, human trafficking for example, and has known friends in high places, it's better to end him

I still disagree. To me, that still does not warrant the taking of a life. His execution will not magically restore the lives of the people he harmed, and what about the suffering of his friends and family? Should we just say "Oh, so what if his parents get sad and cry if we kill him, they'll know how the people he hurt feels." That's a horrible, HORRIBLE way to think. I can't believe anyone would even consider that as being anything resembling justice.

Reason being is that the prisoner on death row WILL find a way to get his message out or has already made plans on escape and continue his crime spree.

So...you just contradicted yourself. You said even if he's on death row he'll find a way to get his message out. So then you're admitting giving him the death penalty solves nothing. You even say he can escape from death row. So then so what? It's no different than life imprisonment, and you're not taking a human being's life. It seems to me the death penalty is the clearly wrong choice in this.

You're also (in my opinion) denying the power of God to change the hearts of people. If Saul of Tarsus became Paul, then how do you know another serial killer will not become a powerful witness for Christ? In fact, it seems that putting them on death row would merely encourage them to try harder to escape and/or send out a message to others. At least with life imprisonment, they wouldn't feel like their time was short.

The result being an organization becoming disorganized and become sloppy. Make them easier to track and put them behind bars.

One, I can assure you if the leader of a criminal organization was powerful enough to have friends in high places, he would never be put in jail in the first place. Two, any criminal organization with any worth will have hierarchies established that would mean that the capture of a high-ranking official would do little, if any, to disrupt the organization. It's not realistic, nothing would be accomplished in your scenario.

Uh, guys? I was kidding. But thanks for elaborating.

ShiroiHikari (post: 1439643) wrote:Uh, guys? I was kidding. But thanks for elaborating.

Funny thing about the internet, you can't read the other person's attitude or tone of voice through this silly text.

Yamamaya (post: 1439555) wrote:It costs more to sentence someone to death than it takes to keep them in prison for life. Not to mention the high rate of error that comes with the death penalty.

that's why we should go back to using guillotines (just kidding of course)

Nate (post: 1439641) wrote:One, I can assure you if the leader of a criminal organization was powerful enough to have friends in high places, he would never be put in jail in the first place.

This. It's been pretty well-studied that death-row inmates are almost pretty much guaranteed to be in the bottom tier socioeconomically speaking.

Eh, this is a touchy subject. I won't lie. At the current time I am not sure what exactly I think about the death penalty. However, I do have a relative who was in jail for many years in my childhood for drug dealing. He got a bible while he was in there and read it three times. It helped him keep going. There was also the fact that he was seperted from his family, his wife divorced him and then took the kids and left the state. No one visited him. He hardly ever sees his children (who are all older then me) even now, once a year if he's lucky. He's truly sorry for what he did and while he might not be the most religious of people I think the bible helped him get through his time in prison. People can change. The problem is they have to want to and sadly some people don't think they've done anything wrong even with severe crimes like murder or human trafficking. By the way, since I decided I want to read the bible all the way through for the first time in my life he's loned me his. So I always feel a bit sentimental now as I read it. I do have a bible of my own, but his is written in more modern speech so it's easier for me to understand. I'm not the sharpest end of the stick sadly.

blkmage (post: 1439650) wrote:This. It's been pretty well-studied that death-row inmates are almost pretty much guaranteed to be in the bottom tier socioeconomically speaking.

Exactly. Especially since the rich guy who commits murder can hire a suitable lawyer which will result in a lesser sentence. More money = no death penalty.

It's really a sociological problem. People born in poverty are stuck in a vicious cycle. And because of the lack of money, all they get is a public defender who isn't as skilled or experienced in his job. They have nothing to gain when their case wins.

Our economic and justice system is so screwed up, man. Everything is intertwined and everything is corrupted. Often times, I can't stand my country.

TopazRaven (post: 1439652) wrote:Eh, this is a touchy subject. I won't lie. At the current time I am not sure what exactly I think about the death penalty. However, I do have a relative who was in jail for many years in my childhood for drug dealing. He got a bible while he was in there and read it three times. It helped him keep going. There was also the fact that he was seperted from his family, his wife divorced him and then took the kids and left the state. No one visited him. He hardly ever sees his children (who are all older then me) even now, once a year if he's lucky. He's truly sorry for what he did and while he might not be the most religious of people I think the bible helped him get through his time in prison. People can change. The problem is they have to want to and sadly some people don't think they've done anything wrong even with severe crimes like murder or human trafficking. By the way, since I decided I want to read the bible all the way through for the first time in my life he's loned me his. So I always feel a bit sentimental now as I read it. I do have a bible of my own, but his is written in more modern speech so it's easier for me to understand. I'm not the sharpest end of the stick sadly.

a couple things i want to say, first, i am totally with you on weather the death penalty is right or wrong, i mean, some people change and some people don't, and making that call is sometimes hard. also, making the descion to read the bible all the way through is a great descion, (sorry my spelling sucks) you never will read it all the way through unless you make it a specific goal to, once you do you will be glad you did!

Nate (post: 1439641) wrote:You're also (in my opinion) denying the power of God to change the hearts of people. If Saul of Tarsus became Paul, then how do you know another serial killer will not become a powerful witness for Christ? In fact, it seems that putting them on death row would merely encourage them to try harder to escape and/or send out a message to others. At least with life imprisonment, they wouldn't feel like their time was short.

Okay, so I didn't think it all the way through.

Things that can be done. Enlarge or create more prisons. These prisons are so dang crowded, no one is able to have a quiet little corner to sit and think most of the time. Have at a minimum 1 meal a week that is good quality, not out of a giant oil barrel or however they do it. The "life in prison without the possibility of parole" are perfect targets for ministers to get to. They have little to no hope but if they can become strong, mature Christians, even if they can't get out, they can be the pastor of that prison. Well, not a church recognized pastor but a shepherd nonetheless. Another thing that bothers me, delayed cases. I remember watching a documentary about prisoners. One I remember is how a criminal has been in isolation for 15+ years and still have not been in court. He mentions how he much he regretting what he did, can't remember what it was. It'll be better to hasten these cases and get them in court.