CAA: Christian Anime Alliance

So while I can't really 'recommend' Ghost in the Shell because of certain elements, I can say that personally I enjoyed it a lot. To save you the trouble of watching it and since it ties into my question, let me summarize the concept. The idea is that customization of human bodies has reached the point where - in a very near-future society - everyone is mechanically enhanced in some way, and some people walking around are actually organic brains ('ghosts') in entirely man-made bodies ('shells'). And since computers and the human mind have become so interconnected, it's now possible to search, rewrite, delete, and purge memories and consciousness just like a hard drive. Major Kusanagi, the heroine, is a true example of a ghost-in-a-shell, as her body is completely fabricated. The movie opens with her and her partner dealing with a case where a hacker mastermind has 'flashed' the mind of a garbage collector and is using him to carry out his legwork all over the city. The hacker was able to give this man false memories of a family, divorce, and everything else he needed in order to rationalize what he was doing.

This makes Kusanagi doubt her assumptions about reality. How can she know that what she remembers is real, or that she is actually alive? There is a possibility that her 'knowledge' of human existence is actually just an artificial memory injected into an AI program. If this reminds you of The Matrix then that's because this is what inspired that movie. But unlike The Matrix, Ghost in the Shell doesn't present a far-flung world where machines dominate and the entire human race is in a virtual world. It suggests a much more real possibility of individual illusion, whether it be mere memories or existence itself.

So my question is this: is there any way to know for certain that we are living in the real world? I know it's really easy to just say "we can't know for sure, but it's obvious". My sister and I were talking (arguing) about that subject this morning. She suggested that it didn't matter whether we were living in an illusion or reality, because either way that's where God wants us to be. But if you take this thought the whole way, can't religion and Christianity as we know it just be a carefully designed secondary reality for those in the simulation? Her answer to this was to quote Puddleglum and say that she'd rather be in the illusion, if this life really is an illusion. No offense to her, but this doesn't grab me at all. I would want to know the truth, not content myself with counterfeit existence.

I've only really just started thinking about this, but as of yet I haven't come up with a single way to convince myself that what I/we see is the primary reality. I also haven't figured out what that means about the way we should live... My guess is that we have to live according to what we know best to be true, because otherwise there's no point in living at all.

Thoughts?

First of all, I wouldn't put much more thought on the philosophy of an anime series.

Second of all, God isn't a deciever:)

Godly Paladin wrote:So my question is this: is there any way to know for certain that we are living in the real world?

No. We are completely limited to our perceptions, so you don't even know if you existed five seconds ago. You could have been created right then with memory of everything you think you know.

However, that strikes me as an inevitable reality, not a major cause for concern. You can never be completely sure of something, but that doesn't prevent it from being a valid basis for your life. I don't know if the sun will rise tomorrow, but I might as well plan as if it will. More practically, I don't know if I'll live past this week, but I operate under that assumption. This is completely beyond my control, so there's no sense being paralyzed by indecision.

That's a rather theoretical answer, but it was a theoretical question.

I've seen all the Matrix movies... watched Ghost in the Shell... read hundreds of conspiracy theories... etc etc etc... still, I know God's love so strongly that I would never second guess truth anymore. It's not spiritually healthy to go about life thinking about other realities and stuff lol really, I know it may be serious to you, I am not making fun, but satan uses things in this world to get our minds off God and onto thinking about other things, to the point of driving us nuts worrying about what is true... it's just not a good thing.

You know, I'm just going to ask you guys to be 100% honest with me - when I talk about stuff like that, do I just sound like a moron or what? It always happens to me - I think about stuff, it sounds all right, I mention it, and then I feel stupid.

You don't sound like a moron, GP. Epistemology is a really trippy, but important field of thought. Here's my take on it. Can we know anything for 100000% super-hyper-mega positive? No. No we cannot. There's always the argument that you're just in another Matrix. If I recall, this was brought up in the second Matrix film. However, if we just spend our time speculating about it, we are paralyzed. We must accept something as axiomatic in order to function. Could I be in the Matrix? Sure. Right now, however, there's no way of knowing, and I must press on with the knowledge I have, keeping my eyes open. Does that make sense?

.rai//

You stated that very eloquently. Yeah, it does make sense, and I was sort of guessing at that at the end of my first post.

this is why i try to AVOID thinking about these sort of subjects. there'll always be more questions and you'll never really be able to find a 100% correct answer. it's purely a matter of opinion.

No need to feel stupid at all stories, such as the ones in those movies are meant to be thought provoking, but they are just that, stories. There isn't anything stupid about wondering or having questions about life, but if you have a relationship with God, I was just saying it isn't healthy to be worrying about such things.

Godly Paladin wrote:You know, I'm just going to ask you guys to be 100% honest with me - when I talk about stuff like that, do I just sound like a moron or what? It always happens to me - I think about stuff, it sounds all right, I mention it, and then I feel stupid.

No, you don't sound like a moron. You actually sound a lot like my brother. He comes up with pretty much these exact same thoughts.

Interesting questions -- I've wondered about these things myself, though not long and hard. I remember already years back thinking that perhaps I was the only human that existed, that everyone else could be an illusion, a simulation. I was the only person that I knew from experience had real thoughts and perceptions. What if all those around me were just soulless simulations that just behaved as though they had minds like my own? I could never "be in their heads" so I could never prove that they were true people.

God has us in a given place and time for a reason. Our purpose is to behave in God's perfect design as per instructed. We are to retain our morality in all situations....however you percieve them.

Philosophy can be interesting to look into, but don't get sucked in too far. Living a christian lifestyle is a philosophy in itself, and many of man's ideas contradict or even outright rebel against God and his perfect design for us.

Anyhow, if you still fancy to go deeper into the rabbit hole given my caveat, this will get you started.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilbert_Ryle

Living on Earth is just a temporary stop-off to the ultimate reality - Heaven, or the ultimate reality - Hell.

to paraphrase c.s. lewis from the ending of the last battle. this is like the title page of a book. it is once we enter into eternity that the story really begins. even paul in 1 cor said that for now we see things through a glass darkly, but then we will see face to face.

Warrior 4 Jesus wrote:Living on Earth is just a temporary stop-off to the ultimate reality - Heaven, or the ultimate reality - Hell.

So, techniquely we are living in a simulation, if you want to put it in those terms.....meaning that, techniquly the architect is Lucifer...but, on the other hand the original Creator of our world...the King, is God, the Father and King....

Acoarding to the Bible, there is also a spiritual war that has been going on for some time now between the Architect and the Creator...Though, the wars end has been foretold long ago, The Architect attempts to take with him as many as he can...

Ok, so I got a little carried away (I must be going through novel withdrawl...that and it's late), but if you read the Bible, especially the letters of Paul, it is plain to see that this war has been going on for some time now...

Danderson wrote:So, techniquely we are living in a simulation, if you want to put it in those terms.....meaning that, techniquly the architect is Lucifer...but, on the other hand the original Creator of our world...the King, is God, the Father and King....

Acoarding to the Bible, there is also a spiritual war that has been going on for some time now between the Architect and the Creator...Though, the wars end has been foretold long ago, The Architect attempts to take with him as many as he can...

Ok, so I got a little carried away (I must be going through novel withdrawl...that and it's late), but if you read the Bible, especially the letters of Paul, it is plain to see that this war has been going on for some time now...

i sometimes view it like this, it's like a ginormous chess game with God Almighty on one side and lucifer on the other. the only difference is that God owns all the pieces and lucifer himself and tells him which pieces he can and cannot move.

We can only ever know with certainty what we can perceive through our senses and our senses can be tricked. We back up our senses by comparing what other people perceive.

If there is a force powerful enough to mask all of our perceptions (The Matrix, the Laughing Man, God), then we would be inclined to believe the deception is real. Even so, our false perceptions of “reality” would still do not change the Truth.

In the end, though, I agree with your sister. It doesn’t matter. We live the lives we live and touch the lives we touch. Our mission is clear regardless of circumstance.

It may be fun to ponder, but I look at it like I look at Gnostic doctrine and most any conspiracy theory. They are all intriguing because they promise the believer “secret knowledge” – knowledge that most people don’t have and powerful people that do have it will do anything to keep it that way.