Help: Is This Printer/Publisher a Scam?

[USSRGirl]

Sorry, don't really know where to post this. Someone sent me this site http://www.lulu.com/ as an idea for how to get my writing published. The site claims to print the book for you if it sells and take a percentage out of sales. Supposedly they charge no up-front fees and you retain all copyrights. >.>;; Sounds scammy if you ask me. I checked around on Writer Beware and Preditors and Editors but both sites gave "Lulu" (Can I possibly trust a company with a name like that?! ) a positive or at least neutral review. I know they're not a real publisher, just a printer that lets you self-publish. But if it's free... what'd I have to lose?

Anyway, just asking if anyone out there have heard or used Lulu before and can give me a clue on whether or not its a scam like Publish America, New York Literary Agency, ect. Help would be appreciated!

[Kuro-Mizu]

Never heard of it before.... but It doesn't seem like a scam to me... Just make sure to read all the fine print heh

[Aileen Kailum]

I've heard of Lulu, but I haven't ever used it. I know a lot of people on the Nanowrimo site talked about using it to get a copy of their books. It sounded legit, from what I heard. This is all second-hand, though. Sorry I can't be more help.

[Esoteric]

I've never used lulu, but I know that it's been around for a while and is one of the better known vanity/POD publishing companies. I don't believe they market your book for you though....most POD places don't. They just keep the book on file until someone orders a copy and then they print it and ship it. I'm pretty sure you(the author) have to do all the marketing/advertising though...and that's the hard part for a new author.

On top of that, since they only print books on demand, they can't provide the same discounts as large run publishers, so customers buying your book will have to pay a bit more for it than what they're used to...which is also a downside for a new author. In general POD publishing has proven much more effective for nonfiction writers than for fiction, although there are occasional exceptions. So are they legit? Yes. Will you make money off your book? The odds are strongly against it.

[USSRGirl]

Thanks for the replies everyone. Seems like most people think its legit then.

Esoteric, I'm not so concerned about making money as... losing it. XD I know PODs tend to have the most scams and don't market the book for you, but I'm willing to give that a shot (terrible as I am on it) until I find a real publisher (yeah, that should probably happen in... oh say, the next 50 years. XD). Like you said, I'm writing fantasy so I suppose it would be harder to market congested and overly inflated as the fantasy/sci-fi market is right now. Hrmm... I'll think about the Lulu thing.

[Warrior 4 Jesus]

Lulu are very well known. They aren't a scam but Print On Demand is not a good option if you want to be taken seriously in the publishing world. Also you would be giving up your first publishing rights!

[USSRGirl]

Well, I'm not giving up on getting published for real. So far as being taken seriously, wouldn't printing with Lulu really be the same or better than being a starving writer with a novel on my harddrive? Also, what do you mean by "give up first publishing rights"? Since Lulu is a vainity pub, it's not really the same as being published professionally. Correct me if I'm paranoid, but PODs DO allow you to retain your own copyrights as they say, riiiight?

[Esoteric]

Well, I'm not giving up on getting published for real. So far as being taken seriously, wouldn't printing with Lulu really be the same or better than being a starving writer with a novel on my harddrive? Also, what do you mean by "give up first publishing rights"? Since Lulu is a vainity pub, it's not really the same as being published professionally. Correct me if I'm paranoid, but PODs DO allow you to retain your own copyrights as they say, riiiight?

Yes, you do retain your copyright with first publishing rights. I couldn't find a comprehensive explanation of publishing rights, but this is a starter...
http://www.asja.org/pubtips/wmfh01.php

You should research the subject and scrutinize any contract before signing it, but First North American Publishing Rights are typically what publishers acquire in their contracts. Basically, you're giving them sole permission/the right to print the first run of your book, for whatever period of time specified in the contract. That's my understanding of first rights anyway, but again, you should research the subject. Books on the subject of 'publishing your book' usually explain the various rights in understandable layman's terms.

[USSRGirl]

Oh, I see what you mean now. Thanks for the link. I'll google this some more before doing anything.

[Mave]

You could try asking the editor of Anime Angels since that's how the Mangazine is distributed.

[Mithrandir]

I used lulu when I had my dissertation bound for my grad work. They are very reasonably priced, and it was pretty painless (easy to use publish, easy to buy).

Be prepared to wait, though. Print on demand is very time consuming, and it can be pretty slow.


For those of you who are interested, one of the main founders of Redhat software started Lulu.com. Just thought you might be interested.

[JasonPratt]

Arriving a little late (but not remotely as late as my promised commentary on your book Temulin... sorry. {g} I promise it's on my slate of things to do, once I've gotten my own typesetting out of the way.)

As with other people here, I've heard of Lulu and that it has a good safe rep. I have no specific experience with the service myself, but the advice I've read so far in this thread is very good. (Edit: I should also in fairness add that they're really set up to do exactly the kind of thing Mithrandir had them do. Or to print up catalogs for my factory. That kind of thing.)

The point to what War4J and Esoteric have said, regarding First Publishing Rights, may be better understood this way: publishers do not typically sell to publishers. Publishers typically sell to distributors and _maybe_ to wholesalers and retailers (though really that's what distributors are for.) A modicum may be sold directly to the end reader, but again that's typically what these other elements of the publishing industry are set up to help facilitate.

What publishers do _NOT_ do, is sell to other publishers; not in the same sphere-of-influence, so to speak. TOR can sell publishing rights to RJ's _Wheel of Time_ series to some other publisher in Great Britain (assuming they aren't really the same publishing company to start with!), but they aren't going to sell it to Bantam or Warner-Aspect here in North America (US/Canada/Carribean.)

If you are now thinking to yourself, "So what? I'm not a publisher!"--that's where everything is going to fall to pieces. Either you or Lulu _will_ be regarded as the publisher. They'll probably consider Lulu to be the publisher for the very simple and basic reason that Lulu is the one who is fronting the cash. (Rule of thumb: he who puts up the money is the publisher.)

And they're going to notice that you didn't take a financial risk with your book at all; and they're going to notice that Lulu is absolutely minimizing any financial risk with your book at all. So, why should _they_ make any financial risk on your book?

On the other hand, if your book is selling great--why are you going around trying to shop your publishing rights to another publisher!? If your book sells great, the publishers (I assure you) will start coming to you, to ask _you_ if you would like to take the burdensome annoyance of being a publisher off your shoulders and let somebody else carry that cross for you (and earn the financial returns for you. {g})

But to maximize your book's chances to sell, _you_ have to _be_ the publisher, and not just in title but in action and in responsibility. That means treating your operations exactly like a small business, because publishers are _businesses_. It means getting up _and_ producing a cover design for the book, and it means proofreading, and it means typesetting, and it means marketing (promotions are free of course but relying entirely on promotions is tantamount to suicide), and it means dealing with wholesalers and retailers which really means dealing with distributors, which in turn means (and I can't emphasize this enough) _HAVING STOCK TO SHIP_ sitting somewhere in a warehouse with professional invoicing and fulfillment and that kind of thing, because these other people are professional businesses and that's what they expect. They only respect POD insofar as it means they can get 200 or 500 or 1000 copies or whatever printed on demand, in not much more time than it would take to get them shipped from a warehouse. And now you're talking spending _more_ money, both overall and per unit, than you _otherwise_ would have spent, because POD is actually a premium service. At best, you're only back to paying the money you would have spent in the first place for stock.

It's a harsh truth; but it takes money to operate a business, and to get your book out to people means dealing with other businesses who are going to expect you to behave like a business and to treat your product the way you want _them_ to treat your product.

This is why most authors are not publishers; and why most authors who try to get along without publishers become doomed. Publishers are there for a reason. If you want them to finance your work, you'll have to convince them to do so, one way or another. If you don't want to bother with that, you'll have to bother with a bunch of other things that _they_ were going to be bothering with--and you'll have to foot the bill.

I repeat: _somebody has to foot the bill_ (even God. {s}) If you don't want to foot the bill, then convince someone else to do so. But unless they commit to _really_ footing the bill, then your product will be going nowhere because it won't have the fuel to go anywhere. If you starve your product, it'll die. You'll either have to feed it yourself, or convince someone else to really feed it (not just give it a bit of food now and then because some third party agreed to share the cost of that bite of food with this other entity whom you have _entrusted_ your book with.)

In effect--and I know this is going to sound coarse, but it may be the best way to get across a notion of what you'll be doing: you are giving your daughter or your boyfriend over to someone who is going to put her or him down into a dungeon where the only attention she or he will get (even food) will happen when someone from outside decides they want to have some sex with her or him.

Which is proportionately unlikely to happen so long as she or he is down in that dungeon.

That's how it is. Admittedly, you may decide that even this is better than having your loved one starve to death in your own home where you cannot afford to feed her or him. But you need to be aware of what is really being offered as an alternative there.

Good luck (and I mean that). {s}

Jason Pratt

[USSRGirl]

XDDD *dying of laughter over that last horrible analogy*

Ah ha.... I believe I get the point.

I did read on their site that, like Mith said, they do a lot of binding for student research papers, dissertations, ect. Kinda like a more sophisticated Kinkos. *shrug* Like you said, I doubt Random House is going to see it and be utterly ecstatic that I got "published" by someone with as much renown as Lulu.

On the other hand, as things stand right now self-publishing will not work for me for the very simple and unwavering fact that I am broke. Being my first novel, the only way I'm going to get it out there is by someone like Lulu (or possibly by a literary agent... been looking at those too), seeing as most real publishers won't take a gamble on newbies. I understand that this looks like I myself am not willing to take a gamble on it financially, but basically what I'm trying to figure out is if I'd be any worst off doing it the POD way than what I'm doing now (eh... which would be editing it every now and then, spamming publishers with submissions and either finding out their scams when they send me a contract the next day or they're full for the year with titles, and swapping it around with friends for crit).

I understand that Lulu won't edit or market the book for me, but once again no one besides myself is doing so now, and it would at least look somewhat more impressive to have an actual bound book that people could order (even if Lulu will mark up the price so no one in their right mind WOULD order it >.>;; )

Anyway, I appreciate the info, folks. I have a better idea of how this whole publishing thing works now. I'll keep googling and think it over.

BTW, Jason, oh yeah... forgot I even asked you to crit it actually. XDDD Would still like to hear your comments if you get time. *shivers* Ack... of course if it was that long ago that means you'll be reading the frighteningly bad/worst beginning before I changed it. Read with caution is all I can say. >.>;;

[Bobtheduck]

Well, Lulu actually does have a service to put your book in Amazon, borders, and Barnes and Nobles, and give it an ISBN... So... It doesn't market your book, but it does make it available to buy at retailers... Marketing would be up to you... My suggestion? Viral Videos...



What?

I was planning on doing my first run of my book on Lulu...

[JasonPratt]

{{Like you said, I doubt Random House is going to see it and be utterly ecstatic that I got "published" by someone with as much renown as Lulu. }}

It isn't a question of renown, though that may not help you any. {sympathetic g} It wouldn't matter if you had been published by TOR (to take perhaps the most well-renowned fantasy publisher in North America): Random House is probably not going to go to TOR and ask to publish your work, and TOR is probably not going to let Random House do that unless RH can make them a _really_ good deal on getting something done that TOR isn't in a position to do.

Renown is _not_ the issue, even in the case of outright scams. A publisher might pity you if you got caught in that, but that (in itself) would make not the slightest whit of difference in their estimation of whether to publish you or not.

If Lulu 'publishes' your work, another publisher is almost certainly not going to do it in the same sphere-of-influence. If you 'publish' your work, another publisher is almost certainly not going to do it in the same sphere-of-influence. If TOR publishes your work, another publisher is almost certainly not going to do it in the same sphere-of-influence.

See the principle?

{{On the other hand, as things stand right now self-publishing will not work for me for the very simple and unwavering fact that I am broke.}}

Then you'll have to convince a publisher to front the money. Or, you'll have to convince someone else to convince a publisher to front the money and do the work--which is why there are such things as literary agents. {g} I recommend focusing on them; that's their job, to screen for publishers who don't take unsoliciteds. It's also their job to give you a boost up over the authors who submit to publishers who _do_ take unsoliciteds. Plus, there are (I think) a lot more literary agents in the world than publishers; and they'll know publishers to submit to that you might not have a clue about.

Also, I don't recall if Writer's Edge is still up and running (I'm lazy, do the search yourself {g}), but if it is, I know they accept submissions of fantasy novel proposals, so long as the material has a Christian theme. Of course, they might also tell you (as they told me) that there is no point sending your material even if all they have to say about it is rave reviews, because there is no overt call to accept Christ in your story and they think Christian publishers won't accept you without it. {deeply ironic grimace} But--if you haven't tried them, they haven't said 'no' yet, hm? {g} And they're pretty much the only way to get a proposal to Christian publishers in North America, if you have no track record. (That's their job, to screen material for NAChristian publishers and send them a list of submissions that passed the screening. Like an agent, but you have to pay them a little on the front end and they only go to work for you once. But then neither do you owe them royalties either for the rest of your natural life. {G} That being said, you'll almost certainly need an agent anyway, even if a publisher picks you up--the publisher herself will insist on it.)

{{I'm trying to figure out is if I'd be any worst off doing it the POD way than what I'm doing now}}

You would be very slightly better off, and it would virtually kill your chances to be any further better off.

{{it would at least look somewhat more impressive to have an actual bound book that people could order}}

It will to an end-reader, yes. It will to a distributor, wholesaler and retailer, yes--and they're going to want you to have several thousand copies of actually bound books. {g} But they aren't going to pay you ahead for that.

It will not look somewhat more impressive to a publisher. It will tell them that you're probably already trying to 'publish' the thing yourself, and that will be the end.

Out of curiosity, what pagecount does Lulu estimate, how much are they going to charge you per unit printed, and how much are they planning to mark up the price? (Btw, variation of basic rule: he who sets the price, is the publisher. {s})

PS: Send me the new submission material, as before: the first chapter, any two other chapters you care to send, and however much of the story you want to give in a plot summary (but try to keep it under 10% of your estimated pagecount. Think of it as a tithe. {g})

That way I can get the revised material; which I was going to ask you whether you had anyway, before I started on it.

Jason

[Mithrandir]

Don't forget, you don't HAVE to ever let anyone know you've published something through them. You can print a copy or 10 for yourself, and keep that on hand for otherthings you might want to "show off" or whatever. It'll give you a little experience, and you can always publish and mail a preview of the story to a publisher. If you tell them it's self-printed (not self-published), then it's just a "professional looking sample" and you only have to pay for whatever you send.

Just a thought. I don't know if it's a very good one, but it *is* a thought.

If you're curious, I've many times considered taking a project binder from a long-running project and using LULU to generate easy-to-store copies of things I want to reference. It looks VERY professional to have those on your shelf when a client comes in. You can non chelantly reach up, grab one of those, and tell the client, "This project sounds very much like this other project I worked on. Does this look something like what you are thinking about?"

That has *very* good results.

YMMV.

[USSRGirl]

Jason - go make friends with Pascal. You two can create the world's longest most articulate message board post in history and drive poor newbs off CAA in fear of your 50-page long dissertations. XD

On a serious note, yeah I'm familiar with TOR though I haven't tried submitting to them yet. Last I checked they weren't taking unsolicited submissions. The difference seems to be that TOR isn't a POD so far as I know, and I probably wouldn't be looking for another publisher if I got in with them. For where I'm at right now I'm not in a position to be holding out for the best pub, as its probably not going to happen.

I have actually switched from looking for pubs to looking for agents, as there seems to be a better chance of getting in through them than doing it on your own. Like trying to sell a house on your own is harder than getting a Real Estate agent.

Writer's Edge, hmm... gonna google these folks and try it. Though... *cringes at horrible Tim Lahay style Christian writing* judging by their awkward shallow criteria I doubt I'd get in (...). I mean, no one suddenly goes "Ooops! Forgot to say the sinner's prayer! Be right back!" in the middle of the story, so... >.>;;

Lulu marks up the price based on how much profit the author wants to receive (of course good luck getting a higher profit if you mark the book up to an insane price). They take 20% off that when the book sells apparently. Hmm... I haven't explored the site that much... just found their cost calculator on here. Let's see... using their cost calculator (they have page estimate set at 50 >.>;; Which is what - an FF instruction manual?!) and using cheap "plasticoil" binding, given my page count, the total cost isssssss.... $11.93?!!!! :wow: Eh... would that be considered high for those of us who frequently buy books rather than accumulating overdue fines from their local libraries?

[JasonPratt]

Well, Lulu actually does have a service to put your book in Amazon, borders, and Barnes and Nobles, and give it an ISBN... So... It doesn't market your book, but it does make it available to buy at retailers... Marketing would be up to you...

I was planning on doing my first run of my book on Lulu...

An ISBN is par for the course, you need one anyway. Also a Library of Congress number, and if you hope someday to do any retailing at all you need a barcode, too. Stores won't stock you without a barcode.

I am a little surprised that Lulu will get your book onto B&N (I am supposing you mean the website, not the brickstores); unless they've changed their policies recently, B&N wasn't allowing books to be put up unless they passed certain criteria of B&N's distribution arm. Legitimate small publishers would meet the criteria, but this included stock, marketing, etc. (Then again I also seem to recall they originally had a deal with iUniverse to allow their stuff on site, years ago, so maybe they've made the same deal with Lulu.) The point was to keep their lists from being flooded by authors 'publishing' books without really being 'publishers'.

The other listings would happen automatically from being listed in Ingrams' catalog, and Ingrams lists _everyone_ who bothers to apply. That's why their catalog is the industry standard for completeness. (They also function as real and very respected distributors, but that's quite a different thing from being simply listed in their catalog.)

It's far from a bad thing, but it's also far from being as much as it may seem. Amazon will list you, but it'll also put up a message saying that your book isn't in stock and could take several weeks before delivery. This, btw, is why I was livid at my own distributor for rather inanely putting June 1st as the release date on Amazon (and elsewhere), when that was actually the date the distributor's catalog would be released for wholesalers and retailers to begin making preorders for the Early Fall season. (Not that that's likely to happen this first year, but that's the principle.) When June 1st rolled around, my book wouldn't be 'preorder' status anymore but 'out of stock' status--THIS AM BAD!!! {gnashing teeth}

As it happens, the distributor got this semi-fixed: the release is still showing June 1st, but it's also still pre-order status somehow. I'll take that. (But I left a note at the bottom of the page to the effect that books wouldn't be in stock until mid-July or August at the earliest.)

That being said, my distributor (Atlas) has also managed to get other distributors (Ingrams, Baker&Taylor) and distribution arms of retailers (Amazon, B&N) to each preorder a copy for their departments to look over. (Ingrams preordered 5!) I take _this_ to be a fairly good sign, because distributors tend to have sole distribution clauses, which means if other distributors want in on the action they'll have to be content with whatever fraction the primary distributor is willing to dole out from their own 14%. Normally, this is a hindrance; if other distributors want a cut of the book, they'll have to move a lot of stock to make it worth their while. Which means, they're already considering moving lots of stock without even having seen a printed product yet!

(Of course, they could see the printed product and go "BLARGH!", but I do seem to have already jumped the first major hurdle of a small publisher: someone else other than my primary distributor is at least initially thinking about taking me seriously. Which is exactly what a distributor is supposed to be working toward: they're like an agent for publishers to wholesalers and retailers.)

Eye-blearingly dull businessy things end here. {s}

[USSRGirl]

That was what I was thinking, Mith. I don't expect to make money off Lulu, but it would be nice just to have a bound copy to show off. Like you said, no one has to know the deep, dark Lulu secret.

[mechana2015]

[quote="USSRGirl"]
Let's see... using their cost calculator (they have page estimate set at 50 >.>]No.

I work in a textbook department at a college and 11 dollars is actually reasonably low for a fifty page spiral bound book. Unfortunately fifty page spiral bound books are pretty low quality (the binding looks insanely cheap for a novel). My suggestion would be to reflow the type and perfect bind the book as this looks... about 30 times more professional. Spiral binding is fine for projects, manuals and possibly for dissertations, but it really dosn't fly with the general novel reading population.

A note on re-flowing text that many people do not realize.

12 point type is the standard for essays and word documents across the board, but it isnt the standard for novels (or any other mass distributed text where there is a lot of words such as magazines). In most cases 10 or 11 point is actually the way to go, and this can alter page count dramatically.

[JasonPratt]

Jason - go make friends with Pascal. You two can create the world's longest most articulate message board post in history and drive poor newbs off CAA in fear of your 50-page long dissertations. XD

Can I give warnings? Usually I give warnings... (uh... usually. {g})

On a serious note, yeah I'm familiar with TOR though I haven't tried submitting to them yet. Last I checked they weren't taking unsolicited submissions.

That's too bad]The difference seems to be that TOR isn't a POD so far as I know, and I probably wouldn't be looking for another publisher if I got in with them.[/QUOTE]

No, they certainly aren't POD. They spend ridiculous amounts of money each year prepaying the bills for printing and marketing GIANT EPIC FANTASIES!! (edit addition: though it _isn't_ a ridiculous amount to get done what they want to get done. It's just ridiculous in terms of the personal budgets almost all human beings have. {g}) I don't recall if they have a different arm for doing smaller standalone work, but plenty of other publishers do that.

And no, you wouldn't be looking for another publisher. In fact, they wouldn't let you. You'd be contracted to them (through your agent), and they would have all power to do with your work as they wanted. The only real right you would have, would be compensation for units sold, and to divorce them if you decided they were mistreating you (or a better offer came along)--and they'd likely have legal rights to your work after that anyway for a while, which is going to discourage other publishers from picking you up immediately.

But you probably wouldn't want to leave them anyway. They'd probably treat you right, and would have the money to spend on your child taking her far in the world.

I have actually switched from looking for pubs to looking for agents, as there seems to be a better chance of getting in through them than doing it on your own.

Absotively, posilutely! Not quite like selling your house through an agent, although they have benefits of that sort, too. Think of them more like matchmakers, finding you a good sultan to be haremed with. {g} The sultans know which matchmakers have an eye for good talent, over time, and the matchmakers live or die based on how well they can please the sultans. Pleasing you, too, to a lesser extent, but the matchmakers can't pay for the camels in the driveway just by setting _you_ up with a sultan. {g} The point being that if a sultan, analogically, hears from a matchmaker that you're a good prospect, and the sultan has had good experiences with the talent provided by that matchmaker in the past, then... they're likely to give you a shot.

(Kind of a skanky analogy, but hey, it's blibical too. {g} Read the book of Esther, or even Ruth in a way. Same principle. Fun pop-cultural/biblical link: the crazy giant guy who fights the Spartans in the recent _300_ movie, is also the Persian king who marries Esther, if I recall correctly. Insert 'ewwwww's here as applicable. {g})

Writer's Edge, hmm... gonna google these folks and try it. Though... *cringes at horrible Tim Lahay style Christian writing* judging by their awkward shallow criteria I doubt I'd get in (...).

To be fair to WE, the awkward shallow criteria was based on the editor's experience with publishers, I think. {s} I gathered he knew it was kind of a raw deal.

That being said: I also understand and recognize that Christian publishers have a right and responsibility about what exactly goes out their doors and into the homes and minds of their readers, and so do we Christians, too. There's something to be said for the principle of 'If it ain't clear, it might be heresy or worse.'



[quote="USSRGirl"]Hmm... I haven't explored the site that much... just found their cost calculator on here. Let's see... using their cost calculator (they have page estimate set at 50 >.>]

Yah, that's high for a 50 page book. (A 50 page book?? What's your wordcount??) Plasticoil binding, hm... No spine title then, and if it ever breaks (which to be fair isn't likely), your reader suddenly has um 50 pages to regather together. Okay, in a way that counts as 'not bad'. In a way. {g}

Now, here's the next fun question. Is $11.93 what they expect _you_ to pay _them_ for printing the book? Or is that their recommended cover price (what the end-reader will pay at most plus taxes, taxes not going to anyone but the gov't of course)?

[JasonPratt]

Don't forget, you don't HAVE to ever let anyone know you've published something through them. You can print a copy or 10 for yourself, and keep that on hand for otherthings you might want to "show off" or whatever. It'll give you a little experience, and you can always publish and mail a preview of the story to a publisher. If you tell them it's self-printed (not self-published), then it's just a "professional looking sample" and you only have to pay for whatever you send.

It isn't a bad idea, but (speaking more to Temulin, actually {g}) if you do it, for goodness sake _DO NOT_ try to make it look like a 'real' book. Make it look like a 'galley'. Publishers are okay with 'galleys', kind of. {g}

And send it to the agents, not to the publishers. And only send it if they ask you for a full copy.

If you're curious, I've many times considered taking a project binder from a long-running project and using LULU to generate easy-to-store copies of things I want to reference. It looks VERY professional to have those on your shelf when a client comes in. You can non chelantly reach up, grab one of those, and tell the client, "This project sounds very much like this other project I worked on. Does this look something like what you are thinking about?"

Actually, I was sitting here thinking with my _other_ business cap, 'hm, 50 pages, $11.93 per copy, plasticoil biding, deal Lord I would gladly pay _twice_ that to not have to work up a company catalog every couple of months.' {scribbling mental note!}{g}

[JasonPratt]

12 point type is the standard for essays and word documents across the board, but it isnt the standard for novels (or any other mass distributed text where there is a lot of words such as magazines). In most cases 10 or 11 point is actually the way to go, and this can alter page count dramatically.

An excellent point. Um, an excellent 12 to 11 or 10 point! {g}

That being said, agents (and publishers) do want to see submissions in 12 point monospace font (like courier or new courier) with double-space between text lines. It's for physical editing purposes eventually.

Also, Temulin, going back to the reflow thing: don't use a monospace font like courier or new courier, and don't use double-spaced lines between texts. {paradoxical g} Use a nice looking font that will take up less room across the page. It's pretty easy to test, with any fontable word-processor.

As to $11.93 being a lot or not--no, it isn't at all a lot, depending on what you're trying to do. But it's horribly cost-inefficient if you're trying to print a novel for any purposes other than just having a copy of your novel around (in which case Kinkos or some other place like that would work just as well as Lulu, or better.)

CoJ is going to be professionally hardbound with a full color jacket (and wraparound leaves), and foil stamping on the cover and spine of the actual hardback itself (which no one will ever see unless they take off or lose the jacket {g}), at just over 450 pages, and I'm going to be paying about $6.30 (roughly depending on planned expenses) per unit. That's dividing back in expenses for typesetting, cover design, marketing, etc., too. My next printing of the same book won't cost me so much per unit, because a significant amount of my cost (cover design, typesetting, some marketing) will have already been paid for.

Even so, I'm still paying a _lot_ more per unit made (not counting overhead) than I would be if I was financing 50,000 copies instead of only 5000. But 50,000 copies is what a major publisher is going to have to finance (plus overhead); that's the kind of money an author is asking them to risk, up front, on her book.

I should probably add that I personally, even as the publisher (much less as the author), will see very little of the $25.00 the book is going to list for. As the author-and-publisher, I _might_ in some good situations personally see about $1.20 per unit sold. Could easily be more like $.30. If I was only the publisher, it would be a fraction of that range. If I was only the author, it would be a very much smaller fraction of that same range. {s}

Still, hey, $1500 to $6000 profit (after my own taxes and business expenses) is nothing to complain about! And there would be a substantially better potential return on the next printing.

But that only works if the books actually sell first. {lopsided g} There is a reasonably good chance I'm simply going to be out a hunk of money, as the publisher.

[USSRGirl]

Jason - I so badly want to see you and Pascal make the world's largest thread. Complete with disturbing metaphors and quantum physics references.

[Quote=JasonPratt] To be fair to WE, the awkward shallow criteria was based on the editor's experience with publishers, I think. {s} I gathered he knew it was kind of a raw deal.

That being said: I also understand and recognize that Christian publishers have a right and responsibility about what exactly goes out their doors and into the homes and minds of their readers, and so do we Christians, too. There's something to be said for the principle of 'If it ain't clear, it might be heresy or worse.'[/quote]

True. But not every Christian writer has to reduce Christianity to the point of ramming it down the reader's throat with the classic rebellious teen, pious wife, pastor who has lost faith story. Just look in a Christian bookstore. That's all you see, coupled with 'self-help' type fiction on how to be a nice person. The sinner's prayer that has become so pop isn't even Biblical. Conversion is such a deeper experience than that. It just seems like Christianity has been brought down to the lowest common denominator nowadays. Okay... *rant off*

Yah, that's high for a 50 page book. (A 50 page book?? What's your wordcount??) Plasticoil binding, hm... No spine title then, and if it ever breaks (which to be fair isn't likely), your reader suddenly has um 50 pages to regather together. Okay, in a way that counts as 'not bad'. In a way. {g}

Now, here's the next fun question. Is $11.93 what they expect _you_ to pay _them_ for printing the book? Or is that their recommended cover price (what the end-reader will pay at most plus taxes, taxes not going to anyone but the gov't of course)?

No, no, no. This post is a pudding bowl of misunderstandings. You asked what Lulu puts for their example (I think... unless I misunderstood the post), and they use a 50 pg work. Mine is 375, word count slightly over 100,000. On the calculator I changed it to 375, put in plasticoil, and got a price of $11.93. So I guess that really isn't too bad for 375. This is the price they will sell it for. Lulu claims that I pay nothing. They only print and behind the book when it sells, then take their commossion out of the profit. Of course, if I want to buy copies to send to agents and publishers I'll have to pay that price too.

Actually, I was sitting here thinking with my _other_ business cap, 'hm, 50 pages, $11.93 per copy, plasticoil biding, deal Lord I would gladly pay _twice_ that to not have to work up a company catalog every couple of months.' {scribbling mental note!}{g}

Make that 375, plasticoil, and deaR Lord and you got a pretty sweet deal. ] An excellent point. Um, an excellent 12 to 11 or 10 point! {g}

That being said, agents (and publishers) do want to see submissions in 12 point monospace font (like courier or new courier) with double-space between text lines. It's for physical editing purposes eventually.

Also, Temulin, going back to the reflow thing: don't use a monospace font like courier or new courier, and don't use double-spaced lines between texts. {paradoxical g} Use a nice looking font that will take up less room across the page. It's pretty easy to test, with any fontable word-processor. [/quote]

Other than the title, its in 12 point new roman, double-spaced. I double-spaced it because most submissions I've done ask for double-spacing and it look neater that way. If I print with Lulu, I can single space it again or do 1.5 spacing to save money on pages.

As to $11.93 being a lot or not--no, it isn't at all a lot, depending on what you're trying to do. But it's horribly cost-inefficient if you're trying to print a novel for any purposes other than just having a copy of your novel around (in which case Kinkos or some other place like that would work just as well as Lulu, or better.)

CoJ is going to be professionally hardbound with a full color jacket (and wraparound leaves), and foil stamping on the cover and spine of the actual hardback itself (which no one will ever see unless they take off or lose the jacket {g}), at just over 450 pages, and I'm going to be paying about $6.30 (roughly depending on planned expenses) per unit. That's dividing back in expenses for typesetting, cover design, marketing, etc., too. My next printing of the same book won't cost me so much per unit, because a significant amount of my cost (cover design, typesetting, some marketing) will have already been paid for.

Even so, I'm still paying a _lot_ more per unit made (not counting overhead) than I would be if I was financing 50,000 copies instead of only 5000. But 50,000 copies is what a major publisher is going to have to finance (plus overhead)]

Well, Kinkos only spiral binds, so Lulu is a bit more sophisticated. They give you a generic coverart and do hardback w/dust jacket, paperback, ect. (of course the sale price goes up with the hardback).

Believe it or not, I am one of those strange compulsive people who feel the need to peel the dust jacket off every book I buy just to see what the hardcover looks like. So yes, it does matter for weird individuals such as myself. Judging by those figures, it's no surprise why publishers don't want to risk it on an unheard of author. Having an agent pitch to them is sounding a lot better. It gives it a bit more credence, and there's a lower risk of getting stuck in a scam (unless the agent THEMSELF is a scammer...)

I should probably add that I personally, even as the publisher (much less as the author), will see very little of the $25.00 the book is going to list for. As the author-and-publisher, I _might_ in some good situations personally see about $1.20 per unit sold. Could easily be more like $.30. If I was only the publisher, it would be a fraction of that range. If I was only the author, it would be a very much smaller fraction of that same range. {s}

Still, hey, $1500 to $6000 profit (after my own taxes and business expenses) is nothing to complain about! And there would be a substantially better potential return on the next printing.

But that only works if the books actually sell first. {lopsided g} There is a reasonably good chance I'm simply going to be out a hunk of money, as the publisher.

XD Well, see that's where I don't have the money, means, or skills to self-publish in a million years. Yeah, I know... great pitch for why someone ELSE should gamble on my writing.