Postby JasonPratt » Mon Jun 04, 2007 1:23 pm
[quote="Fiore teh Duck"]I've been reading the bible a lot lately]
Oy. This is like a 4000 page answer, y'know. {g} (What was it Voltaire once said? You only have to read the Bible, and a million other books? {lol!})
Right, then. Skipping over 800 pages of metaphysics, Christian theological claims come down to this: true love really exists, and is the most foundational thing in all reality.
Atheism, whether naturalistic or supernaturalistic, can't make that claim (because the foundation of reality is non-rational and amoral.)
Negative pantheism can't make that claim (because rationality and morality are illusions like everything else, even reality's foundation itself.)
Positive pantheism can't make that claim (because of highly technical things back in the 800 pages of metaphysics. {s}) (Edit: less technically, because ultimately the goal, if not yet the actual reality, is for one Person to be only one Person loving itself.)
Cosmological dualism of the God/Anti-God or God/Nature sorts, can't make that claim (partly from highly technical things back in the 800 pages of metaphysics, but also partly from the fact that under this proposal the two foundational entities are constantly at odds with one another.)
Cosmological dualism of the Sky-Father/Earth-Mother sort, can't make that claim, although it perhaps comes closer than anything else. (Putting the technicals shortly, the attempt at going for a cosmological dualism ends up pointing to an overarching system shared by the two supposedly independent facts, so we're back to a single foundational fact after all.)
Mere monotheism can't make that claim, because true love isn't integral to God's own self-existent reality.
It takes at least binitarian theism, God actively self-begetting and God actively self-begotten, at least two distinct Persons in one singular 'substance', to make the claim that true love is the active foundation of all reality, including of our derivative system of Nature, itself being loved into existence by God's self-sacrificial action for its sake. Once you're at that point, you've just about accepted every theological proposition of orthodox Christianity except for the Holy Spirit's existence; and that follows (though admittedly not obviously) as a corollary to God's love for His creation. (The Spirit proceeds from at least the Father, and many of us would say from the Father and Son together, bringing the Father-and-Son to us. This is distinct from the 'begetting', which is why we say 'proceeding' and not 'begetting' for the 3rd Person.)
If you can live without true love, then I'd probably have to appeal to 800 pages worth of the metaphysics. {g} But at least you'll know what's at stake: not just rationality and morality (though that, too), but true love.
The historical portion can be summed up by noting that Jesus was claiming this reality was true, and that He was (and is) God self-begotten Incarnate. (Being the 2nd Person and being God Incarnate are not strictly the same claim, but they would overlap because the living action of God is the Person Who would be Incarnated, if one was going to be. {s})
Even if Jesus never claimed (somewhat obliquely) to say such things, it's hard to explain why numbers of people afterward would invent-or-present someone claiming to be such a thing (and claiming it so obliquely, the claims have to be pieced together like a puzzle! {g}) They certainly aren't getting there from the direction I just gave. To me, this looks like revelation on their part, not invention: someone told them, or was trying to tell them, and they were able to retain enough of it to give us the scriptures we have.
But: even reducing the historical claims down to theological irrelevance (which I wouldn't recommend {s}), and retaining the character of the man involved, we still get something like the following description, which I have a couple of former enemies give of a man named Jian as a declaration to their former tyrant whom they have just abandoned. (This comes from _Cry of Justice_, which should be in stores by Labor Day.)
“You, Artabanus, treat us as slaves! The pale man treats his _enemies_ as his brothers! _You_ give only fear and defeat! The pale man inspires both love and victory! _You_ sacrifice your allies to save yourself! The pale man sacrifices _himself,_ even for his enemies! We choose to follow _him,_ therefore, though he be dead, rather than spend another single moment in following _you_-even if you are the king of the world-_which you shall never be!!â€
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in the owner's spare time {g!}
"For all shall be salted with fire. Salt is good, but if the salt becomes unsalty, with what will you season it? Have salt in yourselves, and be at peace with one another." -- Mark 9:49-50 (my candidate for most important overlooked verse in Scripture. {g})
"We must
be strong and brave--
our home
we've got to save!
We must make
the fighting cease,
so Mother Earth
will be at peace!
Through all the fire and the smoke,
we will never give up hope:
if we can win,
the Earth will survive--
we'll keep peace alive!" -- from the English lyrics to the closing theme of _Space Battleship Yamato_
"It _was_ harsh. Mirei didn't have anything that would soften it either." -- the surprisingly astute (I might even call it inspired {s!}) theological conclusion to Marie Brennan's _Doppleganger_ (Warner-Aspect, April 2006)
I'm still working on if I believe all of this...stuff... but I just wanna know why and all >>;; so please tell me if you can .
it's really something to think about. 
