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me and a friend we talking briefly about me going to do missions in japan. she made a comment that, 'christian values are so outdated'. how would you reply to that?

Uh, I think I would then ask, "why? Explain to me why they are outdated." In order to debate a point, you have to understand the whole argument.

I would reply, "How so?"

It's not enough to let such a statement hang. If you play your cards right, you can skewer her with your own words.

sldr4Christ1985 wrote:me and a friend we talking briefly about me going to do missions in japan. she made a comment that, 'christian values are so outdated'. how would you reply to that?

Well to be honest modern hedonistic values could be found in any ancient city

"Question the questioner" as a lot of others have mentioned. Also bring up the subject regarding about ethics in society and stuff.

To me, it seems like that's what people say whenever they want to live as immorally as they want. "Having morals is so outdated" basically equivilates to "Christian values are so outdated," at least in my mind. Of course, I do not know your friend, so that may not be what he/she means. But if it is, then I would just say that we don't hold those values to pointlessly cling to tradition, but that we do it to please and love a God who has saved us from unthinkable meaninglessness. And because of that, that living with those values is our pleasure.

It seems to me that the statement your friend made carries with it the assumption that values are like fashion.

I don't know your friend, but there's a chance that she treasures and upholds some of the very values that she thinks is outdated.

here would be my reply,

that's funny, 'cus ya know, people have been living without "christian values" much longer than christianity's been around

Yeah, going to heaven is so... last century.

Ultra Magnus wrote:It seems to me that the statement your friend made carries with it the assumption that values are like fashion.

I don't know your friend, but there's a chance that she treasures and upholds some of the very values that she thinks is outdated.

This is a very valid point.

An ironic thing about morality is that Nietzche always criticized Christian Moral values, yet later in life he died of syphilis.

Nietzche was sad. He lauded the coming Superman (ubermensch) who would transcend humanity and morals and set himself up as a god, but died alone, nearsighted, insane, and unable to help himself. Sadly telling, I have to admit. How can Christian morals, which are based around loving God and loving our neighbor, become outdated? Those who claim to transcend or outgrow morals inevitably find themselves in dire need of morals. Because, really, has humanity changed in the last 2000 years, or even the last 10,000? We could flatter ourselves and claim that society and humanity have advanced to the point that the old moral systems are outdated, but simply looking at the way people act will tell you that little has changed, and that humans need the same moral guidance they have always needed.

Puritan wrote:Nietzche was sad. He lauded the coming Superman (ubermensch) who would transcend humanity and morals and set himself up as a god, but died alone, nearsighted, insane, and unable to help himself. Sadly telling, I have to admit. How can Christian morals, which are based around loving God and loving our neighbor, become outdated? Those who claim to transcend or outgrow morals inevitably find themselves in dire need of morals. Because, really, has humanity changed in the last 2000 years, or even the last 10,000? We could flatter ourselves and claim that society and humanity have advanced to the point that the old moral systems are outdated, but simply looking at the way people act will tell you that little has changed, and that humans need the same moral guidance they have always needed.

What's also interesting was that Nietzche had great interest in Jesus. "There was only one Christian, and he died on the cross" was along the lines of something he said. He believed that Jesus could of been a possible candidate for the ubermensch.

sldr4Christ1985 wrote:me and a friend we talking briefly about me going to do missions in japan. she made a comment that, 'christian values are so outdated'. how would you reply to that?

I would respond that these these other "values" are designed to feel very good while poisoning everything and everyone in the world withspirals of hate, pain and tears, greed, selfishness, exploitation, dehumanization, mercilessness, and a long strain of lies and hypocricy. Oh no, it isn't just some of us Christians who are hypocrites, they merely follow the dominant culture in this. The dominant culture makes the satan out to be the hero of John Milton's Paradise Lost, a lie entirely inconsistent with this work alongside his Paradise Regained, but fueled because our culture's creed alongside the satan is "Better to reign in Hell than to serve in Heav'n", or if you prefer my own variant, "Better to make Hell than to serve God". The Christian Industrial band Regenerator is right when they say "We're going nowhere at the speed of light" (Nowhere by Regenerator in the album "War").

Lets have a look here at a few Christian values... (I'm deliberately picking ones that still apply today even to non-Christians).

1) Forgiveness. As far as I can tell, everybody needs it, most people want it and a lot of people give it, though in different degrees depending on the individual.
2) Treating others the way you'd like to be treated. And, in my own experience, often you get treated the same way back. People still like to be treated nicely.
3) Telling the truth. If everybody lies, we lose the ability to trust what people say and the facts we are presented with. Honesty is still highly valued today, even if a lot of people lie.
4) Not stealing or murdering. Kind of speaks for itself. You do these things, you typically break the law and tend to end up in prison. I'm pretty sure these are still important.

While I suppose people could argue that values such as these exist in other religions I think the point is that they do exist in Christianity. These are therefore Christian values. (And of course given to us by God). I'd support the argument that these are nowhere near outdated. They are some of the key building blocks for a liveable society.

Personally I'd ask him/her, "How would you go about modernising Christianity then?"

Christianity is 2000 years old and perhaps some of the things are outdated. We can't really relate to the people in biblical stories because they lived lives so different from our own in a time where computers weren't even invented. In that sense i do think christianity could be modernised.

In this time we're doing miracles that God once did. We can destroy millions of people like He did with Sodom with nucleur weapons and we can even bring people back to life when they are dead with medical science. Gods miracles just dont seem so powerful anymore. So beyond our capabilities to achieve on our own without Gods help. And maybe that's part of the problem.

I might try to find out what she meant by "outdated".

However, I would respond as C.S. Lewis might respond: "But is it Real?"

From The Screwtape Letters, a devil's advice to a younger devil:

[Humans don't] think of doctrines as primarily "true" or "false", but as "academic" or "practical", "outworn" or "contemporary", "conventional" or "ruthless".... Your business is to fix his attention on the stream [of immediate experiences]. Teach him to call it "real life", and don't let him ask what he means by "real".... Do remember you are there to fuddle him.

The christian values outdated?
I don't believe so. Explore the costs of different values.
For instant Post modernism- What is right for me may not be right for you. This brings in the question if everyone does what is right in their own eyes(sound formilure) what happens when these values colide. Since both people are "right" how would a dispute be settled, as in the case of anachy, which the above is a form of, the no rule disinergrate into rule of the strong, or the right of the strong.

In Christianinty because there is a standard outside of ourselves, if there is a dispute one can fall on the higher law to have the problem solved.

I'd say if that's true, then how come so many elements of Christianity can be found in other religions, even those not related to Christianity, such as Hinduism.

Were Christianity - or any religion - to be subject to significant change over time, then it should be rendered meaningless. Truth is unchanging. If we are to suggest that our beliefs, the doctrines which we follow, are the truth of God then we must necessarily say that what was true at the beginning of the Church is true as well now. Doctrine may be defined in further detail or its ramifications for current day issues established, but in its essence should be unchanging.

As to Christianity being "outdated", I should say that this is a rather shoddy argument against it. A faith is not some sort of fashion statement. It is a form of belief. As stated above, any faith that is substantially mutable is rendered meaningless in the end for any meaning it has may change from era to era. We do not define the faith, it defines us. My response, I suppose, would probably be along the lines that I personally do not find Christianity outdated at all and that, to the contrary, I find that its long-established nature and the constancy of its traditons speaks well of its veracity.

If their issue is that they believe Christianity is at odds with science, then direct them to the great number of great scientists who were Christians. These people did not seem to be hindered by an "outdated" faith.

sldr4Christ1985 wrote:me and a friend we talking briefly about me going to do missions in japan. she made a comment that, 'christian values are so outdated'. how would you reply to that?

Um....no Christiananity is not Outdated...it is only outdated if the person dose not aply him/her self to the word of God. and outdated is when it is obsoleet, not werth it, old, busted, conpleny?(sp) besides God's word is never outdated. nor is he.

CreatureArt wrote:Lets have a look here at a few Christian values... (I'm deliberately picking ones that still apply today even to non-Christians).

1) Forgiveness. As far as I can tell, everybody needs it, most people want it and a lot of people give it, though in different degrees depending on the individual.
2) Treating others the way you'd like to be treated. And, in my own experience, often you get treated the same way back. People still like to be treated nicely.
3) Telling the truth. If everybody lies, we lose the ability to trust what people say and the facts we are presented with. Honesty is still highly valued today, even if a lot of people lie.
4) Not stealing or murdering. Kind of speaks for itself. You do these things, you typically break the law and tend to end up in prison. I'm pretty sure these are still important.

While I suppose people could argue that values such as these exist in other religions I think the point is that they do exist in Christianity. These are therefore Christian values. (And of course given to us by God). I'd support the argument that these are nowhere near outdated. They are some of the key building blocks for a liveable society.

CreatureArt got at what I was thinking when I first read this. A LOT of our modern laws still have foundation in things God taught the Israelites thousands of years ago.

And while some of the things preached by Christianity are not necessarily "in vogue" today, they still promote a healthier lifestyle than the alternatives. Take for example "do not commit adultry" - obviously this seems to be one of the major falling-outs of our society today, but look at where adultry leads a person. Emotional turmoil, the possibility of STDs, the possibility of unwanted pregnancies for women...when you look at those risks and compare those to a safe, monogamous relationship, obviously the latter is the better choice (=P no matter what anyone else might say). So God's told us these things for a reason, and like what has been mentioned before in this thread, in the absence of Christian morals we only find ourselves realizing that maybe those morals aren't as "outdated" as we once thought.

"Outdated" and said to be one of the youngest religions...

Well it has been around since the begining, but perhaps not in name, eh?

Amen to that Kokoro.

I'd probrably just ask "Why?" and wing it from there.

Kokoro Daisuke wrote:CreatureArt got at what I was thinking when I first read this. A LOT of our modern laws still have foundation in things God taught the Israelites thousands of years ago.

^_^ Glad to know our thoughts were running along the same pattern.

Exactly. One of the things about Christianity is that it teaches us how to live in a right, moral and ethical manner, promoting the well being of others before ourselves and in the proccess actually helping society. To me, that doesn't seem like something that can be easily outdated.

I agree - God's laws promote a healthier lifestyle and in the end actually give the best results -- even if you were looking at it from an atheistic point of view and didn't count the best result of all.... heaven!

(As an aside: YAY! I finally managed to log in from the Uni computers!!)

Kokoro Daisuke wrote:CreatureArt got at what I was thinking when I first read this. A LOT of our modern laws still have foundation in things God taught the Israelites thousands of years ago.

And while some of the things preached by Christianity are not necessarily "in vogue" today, they still promote a healthier lifestyle than the alternatives. Take for example "do not commit adultry" - obviously this seems to be one of the major falling-outs of our society today, but look at where adultry leads a person. Emotional turmoil, the possibility of STDs, the possibility of unwanted pregnancies for women...when you look at those risks and compare those to a safe, monogamous relationship, obviously the latter is the better choice (=P no matter what anyone else might say). So God's told us these things for a reason, and like what has been mentioned before in this thread, in the absence of Christian morals we only find ourselves realizing that maybe those morals aren't as "outdated" as we once thought.

To be sure it goes beyond simple adultery to fornication. Our society encourages people to whore themselves far and wide, no matter what the cost in consequences, even to the death. That in all the years of training in sexual slavery in culturally mandated harlotry, we're supposed to be surprised that when the time for the actual commitment and lifelong bond in all aspects of life, in body and soul that the sex act implies they are so dehumanized that they have difficulty in compying. This is exactly the sort of thing I intended in my opening ranting, the only thing outdated is the garbage that has replaced the Christian life of love, self-sacrifice, submission before God, loving your neighbor and counting others as more important than one's self, and that of crucifixion and daily death with Christ, and daily resurrection with Christ as one of the living dead already living in the dawn, though dead in the eyes of the truly dead.

GhostontheNet wrote:To be sure it goes beyond simple adultery to fornication. Our society encourages people to whore themselves far and wide, no matter what the cost in consequences, even to the death. That in all the years of training in sexual slavery in culturally mandated harlotry, we're supposed to be surprised that when the time for the actual commitment and lifelong bond in all aspects of life, in body and soul that the sex act implies they are so dehumanized that they have difficulty in compying. This is exactly the sort of thing I intended in my opening ranting, the only thing outdated is the garbage that has replaced the Christian life of love, self-sacrifice, submission before God, loving your neighbor and counting others as more important than one's self, and that of crucifixion and daily death with Christ, and daily resurrection with Christ as one of the living dead already living in the dawn, though dead in the eyes of the truly dead.

Well said, dude.

Its sort of like when people say 'but love, forgiveness etc aren't exclusive to Christianity!' and its like: Yes, they are. God created them, all good things come from him so their foundation is found in Jesus. There's no denying it. Sure you can love and forgive to an extent on your own, but not 'true love' and 'true forgiveness!'

I believe that statement is sort of relativistic in nature. The problem with relativism is that its self-contradictory in nature. When you assert a relativistic argument your saying that absolute truth doesn't exist but at the same time you are asserting an absolute by saying that truth is relative. As for your question, I would respond to your friend by saying this by asking why he believes that and then "attacking" the reason he believes that statement.

Peanut wrote:I believe that statement is sort of relativistic in nature. The problem with relativism is that its self-contradictory in nature. When you assert a relativistic argument your saying that absolute truth doesn't exist but at the same time you are asserting an absolute by saying that truth is relative. As for your question, I would respond to your friend by saying this by asking why he believes that and then "attacking" the reason he believes that statement.

I believe it is a bit more complex to refute ethical relativism than simply relative truth, as they might say "Well the absolute truth is that ethics are relative". However ethics can be considered truth as well. So I'm not too sure.

that's an other thing that trips me out that people are zany enough to buy into, ok think about this for a second, in order for all truths to be relative, that truth by its very nature would have to be absolute, and if that truth is absolute, then why not others?

or perhaps there is a truth that is absolute, but not necessarily THAT one

I read through this whole thread and finally decided to post from the perspective of someone who used to believe that the values of Christianity were outdated. (For those who haven't heard my backstory, I lived over half of my life believing strictly in science - no "faith" whatsoever.)

Here's the "values" that an outsider to the faith sees:

When I was in fourth grade, a group of Jehovah's Witnesses came to our house in the middle of winter. The snow was several inches deep in the yard, it was windy, and it was somewhere around 20 degrees that day. The car stopped in our driveway, and a girl of about five or so years old got out. No coat. No hat, no gloves, no boots. Shiny black dress shoes over white tights and a yellow sun dress. Blonde hair in curls pulled back from her face. She came up to our door and knocked on it. When my dad answered, she offered him a pamphlet and asked if he wanted to talk about Jesus. He told her politely but firmly - "You go back to that car and tell your parents to put pants, boots and a coat on you, and maybe we can talk." She went back to the car, opened the door, and spoke to someone inside. Then she climbed into the car and the car took off down the driveway and we never saw them again. All my dad had to say as he shut the door was, "Unbelieveable. Sending a little thing like that out in the snow to stand on a stranger's porch dressed like that."

I was told regularly by schoolmates that I was going to Hell because my family didn't go to church. I never made a big deal out of it, but we always lived in small communities where it was clear who went to church and who did not. And those who did not heard about it in school, regularly.

I lived in an apartment complex when I was in sixth and seventh grades, and for the first six months that I lived there, not one of the other teens in the complex - even those in my own class at school - spoke to me. I would sit alone on the swingset in the apartments' playground or walk the perimeter of the yard alone. One day, a girl who would later become one of my best friends, approached me on the playground. She kind of stood there awkwardly for a moment and finally said "Hi" in an embarrassed sort of way. I said hi back and asked if she wanted to sit on the swing beside me. She ended up telling me that the friend she usually hung out with, Stacey (NOT her real name), was out of town that week visiting her dad. I was a bit surprised that Stacey's parents were divorced, because her mom always made a HUGE deal every Sunday of packing her family off to church and infused everything she said with something about God, Hell, or Jesus. Stacey herself had once yelled something about me going to Hell from her window. After several months of being best friends with my newfound friend, she confessed to me that Stacey (who I later discovered was a leader of a local gang and helped funnel drugs through the area) had threatened all of the kids in our apartment complex with being personally beat up by her if anyone were to talk to me.

When I was in high school, I had a best friend who's mom was VERY devout. VERY devout, to the point that when we visited her house one time, I noticed that she had THREE floor-to-ceiling shelves of books, and EVERY ONE of them was some sort of Bible or book about the Bible. Illustrated Bible, Children's Bible, Children's Picture Bible, King James Version Bible, History of the Bible, etc, etc. She wore earrings and a pin every day that were those tiny little feet sold by anti-abortion groups (the little feet that are like the size of a dime or smaller together, to show how little a fetus is when it develops its feet). She wore a cross around her neck every day. She didn't let my friend listen to ANY music except Christian bands that were approved by her - no country, no jazz, no rock (definitely no rock, she had this weird, fierce passion against all rock), no blues, nothing but particular Christian bands that she pre-approved.

This is what I saw of Christian values, as an outsider, growing up. It made me bitter toward Christianity. All I heard out of people who were loud about their "Christian values" was hate, anger, restrictions and a very narrow focus in life.

Fortunately, I grew to realize it was individuals, not the religion. As I started to broaden my horizons and actually talk to people about Christianity, I realized that there were good people, who treated me like a human being, who were Christian - they just didn't wave their Christianity in my face like a flag and yell hate at me.

But, I had to go seeking Christianity to realize that. If I hadn't one day had the spark to start seeking, I would probably still harbor the bitterness and still argue that "Christian values are outdated" today.

I expect that your friend is in much the same situation - vocal anger, hate and condemnation are being mistaken for "Christian values". (Though, from a 'debate team' standpoint, it could be argued - for the sake of argument - that those traits are not outdated either. )