Continuing the romance discussion

[ishy]

OK, a friend of mine wrote this, and I have some pretty strong opinions, but I'll just let you read it for yourself first:

http://www.fansforchrist.org/new/viewtopic.php?t=1141

[shooraijin]

Hmmmm. Intriguing article.

Love at first sight is dead.

I guess it depends on what he says "love" is. A lot of what he cited seemed more under affection/attraction/infatuation in my book. I didn't see much in what he said (sweet and mushy as it was) to imply that he disagreed a 'committed companionship love' could not occur at first sight (and I would assert that companionship love never acts that way).

No one wants to fight for love.

I would agree with that. Too many relationships bail out at the first sign of trouble, whether or not it's a red light. They would do better to work things through and see how well their relationship weathers negotiation and resolution. If it does, that seems to me to be a better relationship than one that's never been beaten around a little bit. So, I concur -- too many people just bail out and don't try.

Furthermore, people don't wait (as a corollary). What if you met someone really special that does score very high on your personal "list" and God doesn't give you the green light right that second, or any light? A lot of folks won't wait for it, mistaking no green light for a flashing red one.

No one wants to work for love.

I think this is a continuation of the above.

Perfectionism kills romance.

It sure does. I've learned a lot of stuff that I would have called non-negotiable on my list when I was younger and stupider is really quite secondary to core issues (chemistry, attraction and Christ-centredness). This isn't to say that I intend to "settle" for someone. I've just learned that what I used to refuse to bend on, are not the only good or wonderful attributes that exist. In fact, I missed a few really wonderful ones on my list before.

Women are afraid of men.

Eh?

Poems and adulation are seen as signs of insanity.

Oh, I don't know. I guess it depends on the girl. And let's face it: bad love poetry is still bad poetry, even when written with the purest heart. She may just think he's a sucky poet (I think creativity with affection scores more points anyway).

Okay, I'm done.

[ishy]

This is what I finally wrote in the other thread, after wanting to argue a lot more violently...

AgnusDei wrote:

I personally have a tendency to run if I think a guy is approaching me with some ulterior motive whether it's sex or marriage. Maybe it's a girl thing, but I don't understand why guys can't seem to see that the quickest way to my inner sanctum is NOT to approach me romantically. I need to know I trust you ie, I need to know you're my friend. It's a safety thing.

This goes for me, too. If a guy is not willing to be my friend, but only wants to rush into things, I seriously question if the guy is being romantic for me or really for himself. Because I know way too many people who are after the feeling of being in love and not actually the act of loving someone. If you truly love someone, you would be willing to just be their friend if that makes them happy. I do not believe friendship is on a lesser step to love in the Bible. It's in a class all by itself, and although different, I think it can be worth as much. There's lots of verses on it.

Safety is a huge issue for us girls, and that's not something that's gonna change. I've been stalked by some scary guys....who were all Christians that thought "God told them". Maybe you don't think that's a big deal, but most guys probably don't know what it feels like to feel threatened like that. And when I say "No, I'm not interested", I always mean "No, end of story". If I thought there was a possibility, I would say, "Can we start by being friends?" And the more a guy is insistent and chases me, the more I dislike him. It ain't gonna happen, period.

I heard Mark Lowry tell a joke once that seven women had written him to tell him that God told them he should marry them. He said that either at least 6 of them were wrong or God was a polygamist. Not to mention I was 3 months from the altar when I broke off my engagement with my ex. I'm pretty skeptical about anyone who says anything is definate in the future unless it is word-for-word out of Scripture.

If romance was dead, then most of the people who are (currently) married or engaged would not be so. But I think maybe the place for most true romance is within marriage, not before dating.

[shooraijin]

Why, what else about it concerned you?

[Eriana]

This is what I finally wrote in the other thread, after wanting to argue a lot more violently...

AgnusDei wrote:
This goes for me, too. If a guy is not willing to be my friend, but only wants to rush into things, I seriously question if the guy is being romantic for me or really for himself. Because I know way too many people who are after the feeling of being in love and not actually the act of loving someone. If you truly love someone, you would be willing to just be their friend if that makes them happy. I do not believe friendship is on a lesser step to love in the Bible. It's in a class all by itself, and although different, I think it can be worth as much. There's lots of verses on it.

Safety is a huge issue for us girls, and that's not something that's gonna change. I've been stalked by some scary guys....who were all Christians that thought "God told them". Maybe you don't think that's a big deal, but most guys probably don't know what it feels like to feel threatened like that. And when I say "No, I'm not interested", I always mean "No, end of story". If I thought there was a possibility, I would say, "Can we start by being friends?" And the more a guy is insistent and chases me, the more I dislike him. It ain't gonna happen, period.

I heard Mark Lowry tell a joke once that seven women had written him to tell him that God told them he should marry them. He said that either at least 6 of them were wrong or God was a polygamist. Not to mention I was 3 months from the altar when I broke off my engagement with my ex. I'm pretty skeptical about anyone who says anything is definate in the future unless it is word-for-word out of Scripture.

If romance was dead, then most of the people who are (currently) married or engaged would not be so. But I think maybe the place for most true romance is within marriage, not before dating.

Very much agreed.

[ishy]

This particular guy recently posted about this girl he likes who won't go out with him. I am almost positive that is where this is coming from. But, whereas Steve is pretty much arguing 'why can't I romance a girl and win her heart', the point is that romance isn't the way to win my heart (or Agnes'). Gaining my trust by being a good friend is.

There have been friends who admitted they liked me, but even though I didn't share their feelings, I didn't disrespect them for it. And it's the ~only~ way my ex's have gotten to the point of dating me. I don't have a lot of respect for guys that come on really strong, because that not only threatens my security, it tells me they are desperate. And in 100% of desperate men and women I've seen, they're desperate because they are really only thinking of themselves and what they want and not the person on which they have a crush. Desperation is completely selfish.

So that leads me to the conclusion that romance is for a committed relationship. I'm not saying people shouldn't date, just that marriage is made for the expression of love and that you can't hurry up love for a lot of people. Nor can you force it to happen for someone. The steps beforehand are just as important and maybe have a lot more worth than people give them credit.

[holysoldier5000]

It is important to remember the purpose of romance. On dating...

Some may not like to hear this but we all need to be vary careful when dealing with relationships. Let me give some advice that was given me. When your young, you have so much still left to do before you think about "getting married." ..."Wow! Who said anything about getting married?" ... Serious relationships were designed by God for a purpose, and that purpose is to get married. In most cases the relationship goes from courting to marriage within a max of 2 years. That is because most people grow so attached to each other that they want to take the next step. Dragging it past this 2-year mark puts a huge strain on the relationship and can cause turmoil. Now I am not saying that everyone should date for two years and then they have to get married, everyone is different and so too can be the dating process. Only these are the common statistics. ... "What does this have to do with anything?" ... Well b/f g/f relationship is a serious business. It is the process of growing more intimate with someone. First people should start out just as friends and get to know one another. The they can get a more intimate relationship: Then comes dating, then courtship, then engagement, then marriage, then sex, then kids, then growing old together. This is the way God designed it and the person and their significant other needs to understand what they are getting into. Live your life to all that you can. Then when you’re a ready too worry about all the frustrations and joys relationships bring then start dating. When people want to start looking for a boyfriend or girlfriend the first question they always should ask is: "Can I spend the rest of my life with this person?" for that is what relationship building is trying to answer, anything else just isn't right. Lastly, people need to find someone who is a good Christian! The Bible is clear on this subject. Worldly men and women are no good, but Godly men are what we as Christians should go for. And I am not saying every so-called "Christian" male and female is good. There are plenty of so-called "Christians" who are ungodly. But we need to find one who is Godly. And don't stop looking for them until we find him. God will provide, and trust me, there are plenty of Godly men and women out there. So find out if your b/f g/f is a good Godly Christian and be honest with them.

God Bless
HS5K

[ishy]

I agree, however, so you know, something happens once you hit about 25. Somewhere around 22-25 you stop thinking about needing a bf/gf and start thinking, 'Hey, I need to find a mate'. Not only that, but everyone around you is determined to find you a mate, too (ugh!). And then your parents start dropping hints about grandkids. And then about 25-27, you start to panic if you're still single. At least a little bit. I am very much on the less side, but I really had some bitterness because of my past engagement.

The sad thing is, a lot of people expect that finding a mate is going to solve all their other problems. And from those I've seen who have rushed and done like the 3x3 (3 mos dating, 3 mos enagagement), they ended up with a whole lot more problems because they were more interested in the idea of having a mate than in the person they married. I went to a Christian college where finding a mate fast was pushed and pushed and pushed and I saw a lot of people who got really messed up because of it.

As far as looking, I still don't agree you need to look. I do believe God is perfectly capable of taking care of that. And of making that known to us. Really, I've found it quite freeing to trust God with that and place my concentration in knowing God. I used to go through such an emotional roller coaster and I don't now. Maybe you think that it's not possible to get off the coaster, but it is. And it's so much easier off of it.

[holysoldier5000]

It is also important, no matter what the age, to seek the will of God. If the relationship is God sanctioned then through love, respect, and hard work the relationship will succeed. But it means that both parties must be selfless and forgiving to one another. In a good relationship the husband loves the wife like Christ loves the church, and the wife respects the husband for he is the head of the family. I say these things based upon the authority of the Bible.

Ephesians 5:22-33
22Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. 23For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything. 25Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, 27and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. 28In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church— 30for we are members of his body. 31"For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh." 32This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church. 33However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.

This of course is the Biblical design if someone is getting married. It does not mean that someone has to get married. On the contrary Paul says in 1 Corinthians 7:8 "Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I am." Why? This was Paul's personal opinion. He was advocating that an unmarried person could devote himself more to the Lord then someone who is married. Now this is not the correct diagnosis for everyone and 1 Corinthians 7 goes into that. The point is that whether married or unmarried "each one should retain the place in life that the Lord assigned to him and to which God has called him" (1 Corinthians 7:17). In other words always follow the Lord's will. If it is in the Lord's will that one is to be married then follow it, but if not then do not worry. For the Lord has a plan for everyone, and that means the unmarried people as well. "For I know the plans I have for you," declares the LORD, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future" (Jeremiah 29:11).

God Bless
HS5K

[shooraijin]

This particular guy recently posted about this girl he likes who won't go out with him. I am almost positive that is where this is coming from.

Ah, yes, the hidden motivations do cast things in sharper relief. ^_^

I can emphathize a bit with what you're saying -- I know that I had previously felt things had passed me by (for context, I'm 29 presently), and that the numbers were against me. It took grasping that God was in control of my love life and that with some prayer and attention to His will, I wouldn't miss out on what He had planned even if it wasn't what I was planning myself. I'm hoping there isn't too big a disconnect between those things, though. There are things that I have learned and some occurrences in my life that have helped on this score, and I am anxious to see where God will lead me.

I have heard from many married couples that they met their future spouse after they'd given up. This sort of fits into the whole surrender thing that I've had to learn to do, over and over.

Also, an RL friend of mine wound up in a bad relationship and married off simply because he wanted to be married to someone, and she badly wanted kids. Note how "each other" didn't really enter into that sentence -- they married for particular personal goals, not for love and affection, and if they did, they have a funny way of showing it. Two kids later, I can't honestly believe she's happy, and I'm quite sure he isn't.

I do believe some romance must figure into the early stages of a relationship, but that assumes that you've already determined that the other partner is someone with whom you can transcend platonic friendship. I do agree with you that romance before that determination is premature, because if you're undecided if you could be more than friends with them, romance just becomes pressure and discomfort. That's something I learned the hard way when I was younger. Song of Songs 2:7 comes to mind here.

Boy, the MRS degree problem just infests Christian universities, doesn't it?

[yukinon]

I'm 19 and have never dated anyone until now. (On our first date, my boyfriend choked on his food when I told him that. Funny stuff.) I definitely think I've made some mistakes in the past on my approach to romance, but I'm thankful for that time. It allowed me to find my identity and security in God alone and to be perfectly happy with being single. Even if that meant forever. My mentor once told me "You're not ready to be with anyone until you can be happy with the idea of just you and Jesus for the rest of your life." It took a while, but I got there, and I'm glad. I don't want a guy to be my fulfillment, but I do want him to enhance it and push me towards God. I want us to be better for the kingdom together than apart.

For the record, I'm also learning a million things through being in a relationship. God's timing is awesome.

God does a lot of things after we've surrendered. Like repairing my relationship with my Dad after I'd given up hope, or bringing me to my boyfriend when I definitely wasn't actively looking and was totally cool with singleness. (He wore a Wolverine shirt the first day of school. If that isn't a sign from God I don't know what is. Very personal too. Just like God.)

I've also often heard, and seen demonstrated, that "you have to want the person, not just the relationship." There's a certain poor guy in my college who keeps running into doom because of this.