CAA: Christian Anime Alliance

please don't ban me! I'm just totally annoyed with some folks who are really closed minded so here we go!!!

"dear anime/manga fans,
you should be all ashamed of yourselves!! shame, shame, shame!
don't you kids feel dirty for watching this, this... anime attrocity?!
don't your mothers teach you anything at home? I have three kids, Mandy, Andy, and my little darling Dot (not real names). I was coming home from work and lo and behold what, are my little angels watching?
Dragon ball z! so I joined in and try to deconstruct the "show". what did I found out? people with spiky hair and one green guy beating the snot of each other! so I quickly turned off of our set and put the children to sleep early. I did a search on the aforementioned "cartoon" on the net and I come across thousands of sites offering sexually explicit shows and pictures. judging from this, all animes are bad! it sickens me to think that people watch this kind of rubbish!

last week I walked in my favorite book store, and I saw "books" from japan that are read from left to right.
those crazy japanese! I asked an employee if he/she (trying not to imply gender) reads manga and which he/she prefers. the employee points to a book called "inuyasha". so I read It. Its one morally corrupting book!! the main protagonist "inuyasha" is a half-demon. a HALF-DEMON!!
it doesn't take a theological scholar to know that anything that has the word demon on it is evil!! I pass judgement that all mangas are from the devil. don't get me started with "captain underpants and its anarchistic view!! again I say, shame on you all!!!"

lovingly,
Mrs. knowitall

afterword:
I think some people take things a little seriously. they should lighten up a bit and smell the roses. to quote Jhonny the homicidal maniac, "Movies, books, tv, music - they are just entertainment, not guidebooks for damning yourself." darn straight!

Ack! Of course we we get heat from watching anime. It's like people set it a side as a complete differant type of entertainment, but it's no worse then network T.V. Shows, and you all probably know which part got to me

"the employee points to a book called "inuyasha". so I read It. Its one morally corrupting book!! the main protagonist "inuyasha" is a half-demon. a HALF-DEMON!!"

**looks at avatar**
Yah, even Inuyasha is shocked (Ok, I am a freak!)


AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACK! Okay this what it is, ok, Even though "Youkai" or "Yasha" are translated into English as being actually demon it's not. The Japanese Youkai are actually Japanese version's of Europe's Dragons, Fairies, Nymphs, Ogers....ect. Watching Inuyasha is not worse then watching "Shrek". I don't even think they even mention Angels.

"Youkai are not the Bible Demons and Inuyasha is not a Nephailem! Infact Rumiko Takahashi, the creator of Inuyasha, say's that she means it to Mean Dog forest creature/Spirit...LOL also another translation for "yasha" is a felame youkai...**cocks head to the side**

But if anyone get's on your back about Inuyasha then... Here's a qoute from one of my Fanfics-

"“Kagome?â€

*takes a deeeeeeeeeeeep breath* Okay... I'm not particularly partial to DBZ, but that's just wrong! You can find "explicit" *ANYTHING* these days. I was watching TV (you know, regular, good ol', Amercian TV), and I saw something called "Sesamia Street," in which all the main characters from the KIDS' SHOW Sesame Street were stoned out of their brains. This is proof that you can turn literally everything into something it's not. But if I went to this woman and said to her "Sesame Street is evil, and for that matter, ALL American TV is evil," she'd probably have a nervous breakdown. As a manga artist, who writes *Christian* manga, I don't really take kindly to people who say that all anime and manga is evil. But then, everyone is entitled to his or her own opinion, and we should really be praying for this woman's closed mind rather than grouching about it between us. ^^
~Chibi

Chibi wrote:*takes a deeeeeeeeeeeep breath* Okay... I'm not particularly partial to DBZ, but that's just wrong! You can find "explicit" *ANYTHING* these days. I was watching TV (you know, regular, good ol', Amercian TV), and I saw something called "Sesamia Street," in which all the main characters from the KIDS' SHOW Sesame Street were stoned out of their brains. This is proof that you can turn literally everything into something it's not. But if I went to this woman and said to her "Sesame Street is evil, and for that matter, ALL American TV is evil," she'd probably have a nervous breakdown. As a manga artist, who writes *Christian* manga, I don't really take kindly to people who say that all anime and manga is evil. But then, everyone is entitled to his or her own opinion, and we should really be praying for this woman's closed mind rather than grouching about it between us. ^^
~Chibi

huh? you're saying there are a show where the sesame street characters are stoned? I've seen flash animations on the net but a t.v. show?
all I could do is....

That letter sounds suspiciously unreal. Supa, where did you get that letter? It's way to cliched and just doesn't sound like it was constructed by an adult.

I wouldn't be surprised it if was written by a teen anime fan just to laugh at stereotyped "anti-anime mothers". These kind of people are there but I wouldn't be quick to judge them. In fact, honestly speaking, I would rather a kid grow up without anime at all--only He knows that they will grow up to be people that would be a blessing with their time that would have been covered by anime watching, etc.

These people might give Jesus Freaks a bad name but, thinking more about it, a person might be better off with less influence on their lives. I myself realize how much time I'm wasting on watching anime & reading manga opposed to actually drawing and finishing projects for Him--eventhough reading manga was what got me into it in the first place.

Gah, just my two cents... *fades into the background*

I agree with Pyscho Ann. However, in my short time on the planet, I have become convinced that there is no limit to ignorance, so I suppose that it's possible. All too possible...

the title already implies that this thread is a satire, its not an actual letter but an opinion of a woman who lives in our city. she just doesn't listen when I try to defend manga. so to blow off steam I constructed a satirical letter.
Gomen m (_ _) m

Great satire, BTW.

thanks...
I feel good already.

Who says we like all anime anyway? I know I don't.

supa dupa ninja wrote::lol:
huh? you're saying there are a show where the sesame street characters are stoned? I've seen flash animations on the net but a t.v. show?

I don't think it was an acutal TV show... it was probably a commercial for something stupid... probably Howard Stern or the Man Show.

~Chibi

yeah generalizing is a bad thing. you do have to listen to your parents though mine dont really care i make my decisions they think its dumb stuff, anime. they just say no hentai nothing to violent or satanic (this rules out stuff like ninja scroll and ninja ressurection and any hentai duh!) i cool with that dont like it myself so we do fine there. otherwise i think and my parents do kinda so k.

You know, I really should start reading the INTRO to the start of threads >_<;; Sorry about that. I usually just skim over stuff before landing on the heart of the thread.

Well, I know the frustration, but aside from the "normal" anime/manga world it IS pretty bad. I wouldn't really blame a parent if they seem close-minded about it. The hentai business in anime/manga is very strong and with anime being so wide-spread around the world would also shed more light on the "satanic/occultic/demonic" traits that nearly everything else has too.

Anime being a "cartoon" would add to the outrage too since parents, being the "older generation", would find it extremely offensive for a "child's media" being "tainted" with sex and violence. Anime is animated, it's essentially a cartoon made in Japan--they would expect slapstick humor where no one dies and silly characters with a 2D personality to match. Throw in the violence and sex then everything would be *wrong*. It's natural they would immediately be repelled.

I'm not judging anyone right or wrong here, but I'm personally getting tired of bashing "anti-anime parents" as I am with the "anti-anime parents" themselves.

And if I'm *really* honest, I would start to side with the parents that something is wrong with anime (Eventhough I'm a fan myself). Something of this world (entertainment media especially) that causes tension, and maybe even hate, between parent and child should be questioned.

Hmm, I'm ranty today.....

Psycho Ann wrote:
And if I'm *really* honest, I would start to side with the parents that something is wrong with anime (Eventhough I'm a fan myself). Something of this world (entertainment media especially) that causes tension, and maybe even hate, between parent and child should be questioned.

Hmm, I'm ranty today.....

Me too. ~.^
I'm sorry Ann, but I must disagree with you there. In almost all the cases I've seen online and offline (and in what I've personally encountered), it's not anime/manga/games that are the direct cause of the tension between generations. All are just the scapegoat for an age-old debate that in the absence of anything related to anime, would find its focus elsewhere.

Rather, I personally believe the intergenerational tension is caused by several issues, and I'll address them separately.

First is the hypocrisy issue. Most of us probably know someone who is a huge movie or TV buff but who hates anime for some reason (usually because they think it's for kids despite ratings, reviews, and disclaimers, see something that wouldn't even faze them in a liveaction TV show or movie, and get very upset over the misunderstanding. A good example of this would be my dad-he has an entire movie and TV show collection spanning more than 500+ VHS tapes and ranging from 1989 to the present. He likes all genres aside from horror and pr0n (obviously, he's not into those). He's also a huge western fan-has every one of them that has ever been on TV on tape, everything from "High Noon" to "Walker, Texas Ranger." Yet, if he saw an episode of Trigun and knew I was a fan, there would be much yelling directed at me. ^sigh^ Even though I'm 19, I still live at home and have to for the next two years at least.

The tension there is not over anime specifically (it could be over anything from books to pets to what job we will take)-it is over the hypocrisy that is quite inherent and the unwillingness of one generation to accept that liking things that are different does not necessarily make the next generation wrong, and two, that there is some (or maybe even a lot of)common ground if only both sides were willing to acknowledge it rather than close each other out and talk at each other.


I'll reply with more later, but this is one *major* sticking point.

No prob Milly ^^ I think I said just why they get so worked up about anime as opposed to live action--anime, as they think, *shouldn't* have those kind of themes. It's animated afterall and it being animated it would have more impact (as least they think so) to children. Knowing that anime has bad influences would marr the whole media's credibility for the parents. Aren't they all complaining about the same thing? That anime has pornography and is violent then refuse to see otherwise?

Milly, you might have explained in another thread (but I missed it) but just *what* is your father complaining about?

And disputes over books (now this, again, is another media. I would be seriously wondering if there's something wrong it--unless it has something to do with persecution for not reading His word), pets (it wouldn't last this long. And there must be a good reason for a parent to refuse a pet--more often than not, the parent has a better idea on things), and jobs (Usually it's just that parent have high espectations for the child. It would take a lot of convincing to get yourself a job that would potentially starve you without having your parents breathing down your neck. Many children "follow their dreams" while rejecting any advice from their parents--they usually end up failing miserably. To be fair, many go with their parents wishes and become sucessful YET miserable--and this is what we always hear just because it is what we WANT to hear. Proving parents wrong: the ambrosia of a teen's life)

Hypocrisy is something I hear a lot. If a parent is a smoker, and he/she doesn't let the kid smoke--is it hypocritical? Should he/she then let the child smoke just because he/she does? I think the same thing applies to anime. They may watch many stuff with bad influences then seem to not let you watch anime for the bad influences there--it may seem unfair but is it really? It's always easier to tell others not to do something than not doing it yourself. Parents are just looking out for their kids, maybe going overboard in the process but I really think they shouldn't be looked upon THAT harsely.

Like Milly said, both sides *could* work it out--unfortunately life isn't that simple but it is a starting point. And it needs to start with us; as the children. We have a responsibility to our parents (as commanded by God, mind you) and their words go first before we say otherwise. If they won't listen to reason then offer to watch an anime with them. And if you watch the cleanest anime you could get (Superbook for instance) they might actually believe you--not knowing that you actually watch anime that IS violent etc etc.

If you show them an anime you LIKE it wouldn't go well, since most likely the anime we like would have violence and magic stuff or what not. Start from the bottom and slowly work up, they'll start to get that anime has a WIDE range and not all is bad (though honestly MOST of them are).

What I'm trying to say is intergenerational tension is normal, but over small things, like a certain media, it's really not worth the trouble. Choosing between anime/books/pets/jobs/etc over parents--I would choose my parents. Unless they come between me and the one thing higher than them: God.

Two points.
One, Ann is absolutely correct. Biblically speaking, you are to obey your parents in all aspects, including your choice of TV. Note it does not say "only if you agree with them", it says all the time. So until you move out, you are under your parents authority. Period.
Now, I would argue, however, that most parents dislike of anime (which seems to be almost inherent) is mostly ignorance with some concern mixed in. They are most likely, as Ann pointed out, under the influence that anime is merely another American cartoon in looney tune style. Thus, under this impression, they would be rightly aggrevated when nudity, violence, sex, etc. shows up. I'm not saying their anger is justified, but they also have a responsibility unto God for raising their children correctly. I think if more parents would research anime a little deeper, they'd find that yeah, 70% of titles have something objectionable, but not all of them portray it harmfully. Like I said, I truly believe parents are for the most part looking out for their children. I can say that in spite of the controlling father I have. My parents did not understand anime at first either; but I sat down, told them about it, etc., and they trusted me enough to make mature decisions about the titles I watch. I'm not saying this could work in every family because each family is different, but I'd say it's worth a try. Especially if you use the movie guide as an analogy.
Like Ann said, usually they have a reason for being against something, be it a pet or anime title, what have you. Finding out that reason is the best way to counter it. That way, you can take their case, defend your own, and answer any of their own questions. Just be respectful; you owe that to them.
Again, though, I want to emphasize that parents do have a God-ordained right to make you give up anime or anything else, whether you agree with it or not, because they are your parents and you live in their house. But I bet if more fans would actually talk to their parents about titles, why they like them, and research their parent's objection, they might be able to watch more titles with more freedom.

First off ANIME IS NOT ALL "EVIL" NOR IS IT ALL "GOOD". Second,Please be more respectful to the original person that posted this(Some of the people that posted on here were not respectful)Even though I do not agree with her on her point of veiw we should still be more respectful. Third. I Dont think Anime is all Evil, And about Inu-Yasha.......If the only thing you read was that he was a half demon then you really dont give any anime a chance(You said that in your original post) in which you'd be surprised if you did(Dont check out inu Yasha though if you thought him being a half demon was bad then just read more) Granted there are some bad Anime's out there. I could name a few. ut theres many more than what I could name. I dont know about everyone else(They probally do) But I watch the kind of anime Im into. Fourth. Whats wrong with spikey hair? I have nothing further to say.

Ashley wrote:So until you move out, you are under your parents authority. Period.

While I understand exactly what you are saying, Ashley, I fear I really must dispute this point. Not the point, exactly, but the strength at which it is stated. Parents are failable, as anyone is. Let's take an extreme example, that is, my grandfather. If my father had followed everything my grandfather ordered him to do, that would have meant devil worship, live sacrifices, incest and never telling anyone about it. While I don't really mean to bicker about this, I felt it had to be said...

I'll answer this post more elaborately later.

As for my situation, my family knows that I watch anime, yet they aside from my sister haven't seen any of my favorites *yet.* For now, it's at kind of an "uneasy acknowledgement" state, although my father once made comments in reference to "all those dirty cartoons on TV nowadays."

I don't really care if they like anime or not, and I'm not wanting them to fall in love with it. I'm simply wanting them to understand that I'm not some kind of creep simply watching "dirty cartoons" and writing garbage about it-the same way they understand my sister's liking novels, comics, and science fiction.

Also, one question I want to pose is that while "children obey your parents" may be good advice for the under 18s here, must it apply to those of us who are over 18 but live at home for other reasons (financial or others)?

The reason I ask this is that according to the law, I'm old enough to vote, to join the military (not that I'd ever want to), to oversee my own health decisions, to get married (again, not that I want to), and to do many other things. I only live at home because living on my own in California would be financially impossible until I get a college degree and a steady job for a few months. . .which will take me at least two or three years.

Hmm... This letter looks very familliar... Hmm...


^_^

I'm sure if all of us bitter battered fans got together, we could make a biting comeback to the ignorants of the world, but then again, I suppose that's not too Christlike... It's called "wisdom and love" that's the key difference between that and something that will make a difference.

To dragonslayer: may I politely remind you this is a satire? I.e. the opinions posted are not true, but exaggerated to show a flaw. So the author really doesn't believe Inuyasha, for example, is evil; the author is making a point of over-reactive parents.
To UC: of course there are exceptions. First and foremost we are to follow God's law. I think when parents sin they invalidate the commandment to obey them. The command was written in the context that the parent's wishes were correct; an important premise. I'm not saying parents are infalliable. I'm just saying as far as anime is concerned, there really isn't a serious reason why you should biblically disobey them; they aren't asking you to sacrifice things (other than your entertainment) or go against biblical standards.
To Milly: I really don't know. It's something you'll have to eke out with your parents on your own, really. I could argue the 18+ point either way.
To Bob: the best way to "make a comeback" in a Christ-like way is to inform truthfully and honestly. Which is why we're here.

Thanks Ashley, you took the words right out of my mouth. ^^

Woops.Me and my lack of voacb(didn't know what sattire ment)

[quote="Ashley"]The command was written in the context that the parent's wishes were correct]

And that's really the crux of the problem: determining when a parent is correct in limiting a child's experience. How valid is an opinion on a subject if it is made in ignorance? I'll agree that anime is not a life-or-death issue as far as literature or education go. However it does have broader implications with respect to them. If anime, why not any one of the classic novels that often are challenged by parents in public and school libraries? At what point does the legitimate guidance of a parent cross over into the stifling of a child's moral and intellectual growth? I am not advocating total license, however I do mean to point out that the issue is not as clear cut as has sometimes been inferred.

[quote="Ashley"]To UC: of course there are exceptions. First and foremost we are to follow God's law. I think when parents sin they invalidate the commandment to obey them. The command was written in the context that the parent's wishes were correct]

I know you meant this. You've stated my position quite well. I was just pointing out that you stated it a bit stronger than you might have intended.

Whatever the matter is, we cannot be ignorant going both ways. And again I would say secular anime is "evil" as with everything else that isn't done for His glory. Can we all agree with this? It's just a media like books and movies--and if a parent constricts a kid from watching secular stuff (even in ignorance) then God knows if it actually would do that kid a ton of good.

Only He knows if that kid would grow up to be a an "otaku" as defined in Japan as an overly fanatic person. That kid might waste his life playing dating simul games and watching hentai then eventually going out and raping young girls because only young girls remotely resemble the lolita bishoujo in hentai. This kind of level of fanatism happens in very rare cases but as believers and rational people you can't deny that all of us have the potential to be that one crazy otaku. I hate using over-generalizing in these cases but I can't say that it doesn't happen. And I can't say that that one crazy person *knew* he/she was going to turn out like that.

We all have a lifeline tied to us with Jesus, and so we all find it no concern to step in the so-called "gray area" when we are actually dipping our toes in black. I wouldn't call anime evil as in the absence of good or satan's grip--but I do know for sure that *everything* this world has to offer that isn't rooted in Him is ultimately rooted with the opposition. (Even so, I admit I myself *enjoy* playing in the muck before I feel regret afterwards. It's battle I'm sure we all face frequently than not)

We need to remind ourselves constantly about this less we either end up tripping others in or end up waist high in black muck that would make things much more complicated in life.

Mmmm... ranty....

Psycho Ann wrote:
Only He knows if that kid would grow up to be a an "otaku" as defined in Japan as an overly fanatic person. That kid might waste his life playing dating simul games and watching hentai then eventually going out and raping young girls because only young girls remotely resemble the lolita bishoujo in hentai. This kind of level of fanatism happens in very rare cases but as believers and rational people you can't deny that all of us have the potential to be that one crazy otaku. I hate using over-generalizing in these cases but I can't say that it doesn't happen. And I can't say that that one crazy person *knew* he/she was going to turn out like that.

Hasn't anyone ever heard of personal responsibility? Like taking responsibility and facing up to one's own sins, one's own actions for what they are rather than blaming someone or something else? I could easily blame fanfiction.net for introducing me to shounen ai/yaoi, but I can only blame myself for actually reading fics with pairings like Knives/Legato, Kenshin/Sano, and Heero/Duo. The site could refuse to archive such material, but the site is under no such obligation to uphold het pairings. It was my responsibility and mine alone-and I admittedly not only dropped the ball but threw it as far as I could. So I have *no* right to blame anyone but myself for that.

Responsibility would apply to some of these cases you mentioned, where the persons involved most likely thought "hmm, if I do the crazy act, I won't be locked away for the rest of my natural life like I should be?" or "hmm, if I act like this is all someone else's fault, I'd never get in trouble"

In the cases of those who seriously *are* crazy, I must still say that anime was only the catalyst. Before anime, people have gone crazy over things like politics, live-action film, sports, and a hundred other things I could think of. . .

I'm sorry to say it, but I don't believe outside factors lead to someone becoming a psychopath. I think it's the other way around: someone IS a psychopath and therefore they seek out things most of us wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole, they are too irrational to understand that some actions are impossible or wrong in real life, and they don't realize that their actions have consequences and that every decision one makes sets up other events, other decisions down the road. I'm no expert on psychopaths , and that's just my personal opinion.

As for everything being evil, I agree. In fact, I see this very world and our existence in these mortal minds and bodies as both fallen and evil. It is a horrible nightmare compared to the glory of an eternity with God. However, we're stuck in this horrible nightmare for usually at least 70 years from the day we're born into it unless we die early or the Rapture comes.

Aside from prayer, Bible, and worship, there's no action that doesn't have a potential for sin, a chance for wrongdoing, or unintended consequences-and even those holy things can be distorted and misused because those of us practicing them still have our filthy human natures. I've seen prayers used to aggrandize, the Bible used to justify hatred, and persons who are so *obsessed* in charismatic worship they seem immune to the needs of anyone other than themselves.

I've personally decided to acknowledge "gray areas" and "dual-sided coin" issues in life because it's simply impossible to survive as a human being in this nightmare we call life without seeing that everything has its benefits and its drawbacks.

For example, we have to work for a living, yet work takes time away from God and only serves to provide us with money-which is yet another temptation.

We have to eat to survive-yet eating is the indulgence of our bodies and when taken to excess, eating is a sin just as bad as getting drunk or lusting is.

We have to speak to others-but God says every idle word will be judged, and how are we to know if our words or idle or not until after the fact-in which case there's nothing to do about it except hang your head in shame.

I could go on forever, but I think you get my point. Before you assume I'm comparing necessities of living like work, food, and speech to an entertainment activity such as anime, I'm not.

I'm simply saying that we *choose* things that give us enjoyment in the areas I mentioned without worrying that it will lead us into the evil inherent in them (as maybe we should): most of us wouldn't choose to work at a job we hate for a pittance wage barely enough to cover our needs-even if it gave us more time to serve God-so we don't become obsessed with work. Most of us don't live on a limited, tasteless diet made only to keep us alive so we don't become gluttons. Most of us don't live our lives saying as little as possible and attempting to avoid conversations lest we misspeak and say idle words.

Instead, we feel free to draw a line somewhere between the extremes.



Now, with that rant over, I can agree with you that kids shouldn't watch anime. If I had kids, I wouldn't let them watch anything (even the overly edited and mostly harmless things like Pokemon and whatnot on network TV) until they were at least 16 or 17. I also wouldn't let them watch Hollywood movies, watch most TV, use the Internet, or do many other things for fear they would be harmed and I would be held responsible.

However, I'm not going to *have* children, because I myself would be a bad influence. I recognize my weaknesses, and I probably wouldn't be able to live up to my own standards for them or for myself. . .and besides, indulging one's body to bring someone else into a fallen, evil world like this is to me ethically questionable in and of itself.

LOL, I know this post has wandered everywhere, and I'm sorry about that: late night and philosophical ramblings are not a very good combination for me, hehe -^.^-

MillyFan wrote::rant:

Aside from prayer, Bible, and worship, there's no action that doesn't have a potential for sin, a chance for wrongdoing, or unintended consequences-and even those holy things can be distorted and misused because those of us practicing them still have our filthy human natures. I've seen prayers used to aggrandize, the Bible used to justify hatred, and persons who are so *obsessed* in charismatic worship they seem immune to the needs of anyone other than themselves.

Hmm... I almost did what I hate the most in debates... I almost countered your initial statment there and didn't read the rest... Good thing I did... I hate being a hypocrite (and I end up being one quite often)

Yeah, Anything can be used for evil. And there are anime that are just plain wrong... But I consider many anime to be a combined outpouring of the creators hearts... I think they offer a good glimpse into people's minds, even if the anime have less that perfect outcome...

As for the "everything is evil" i would like to question that logic, but I'm too tired to now... Sin is of the heart and has nothing to do with what you see or hear or smell or feel or taste... It's allready in your heart. It's what you do with what you see and hear and smell and feel and taste. What goes into you does not make you unclean, but if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. (that "garbage in garbage out" quote is not biblical, the correct quote in fact is in direct opposition to that sentiment: What a man thinks in his heart, so is he and NOT what a man sees with his eyes or hears with his ears... However we are weak human beings and can be swayed by what we see... These things can hit our weak spots giving rise to something)

Hmm... Wow... Why is it that when Christians get together we seem to argue a lot... I mean, there are things about modern christian thought that I greatly disagree with, but you know, I mean, who actually cares what I have to say... I'm just another person on their own... I don't feel like becoming a "martin luther" nailing my 95 theses to the door or causing an uprising, or collecting followers or something but I do seem to have a lot of arguments...



Though I don't want to cause an uprising, i do wish to call people's attention to what the Bible really says and not just base everything on their cultural belief or what they'd been taught in Church... On the other hand, I also think that it is crucial to receive a check and ballance for everything I put forward, and really believe in listening to elders and people in leadership... but can't accept when i see Bible verses quoted not merely out of context but in complete opposition to their original purpose... Such as the verse "As a man thinks in his heart, so is he" which people somehow take to mean that what we see and hear and smell etc... has to change us...

I really would like to talk to someone about this stuff face to face, but I can't at this moment... It's frustrating because I can't communicate everything I want to on a message board (though the initiation is easier to type rather than say)

I think I need to read "Tale of Three Kings" a few more times... And the story in Samuel and kings...

At this point, I don't feel there's anything I can say that would honestly be of any help. I have plenty of things to say, if you know what I mean, but I'm going to keep my mouth shut at this point. Actually, I agree with much of what has been said here. Just so you know I'm here, in careful consideration.