"It's too sexy" .. drawing the line for modesty in anime

Postby **JediSonic** » Mon Dec 20, 2004 5:05 am

I read THIS article yesterday and it really got me thinking: where should we draw the line with modesty in anime... not only what we watch, but also in what we draw - the example we're setting for CHRISTIAN anime! I told my friend's mom about the CAA one time and she said that she didn't like anime in any form because female characters were almost always drawn what she called "too sexy". And looking back on this site, sometimes when I see a picture from (example) Neon Genesis Evangelion, I think "thats doesnt seem like a very christian outfit. And yet here it is on the site, maybe the biggest, most authoritative christian anime site out there.

And I've seen worse here than the example I mentioned before.. look around the first few pages of the bishoujo pic thread and there was a pretty shocking image (to me). So now my question to you, fellow CAAers, is... what's shocking to you? Where do you draw the line in what you watch, in what you show others on a christian site, in what you draw?

Postby **termyt** » Mon Dec 20, 2004 5:23 am

Definitely something to think about, JediSonic.

My mind is racing, approaching this from several different angles right now, so my thoughts are not coherent enough to post. Perhaps I will a little later.

Postby **Raiden no Kishi** » Mon Dec 20, 2004 5:34 am

Honestly, I don't think there can be a single line drawn.

Okay, there could be, but then all anime characters would wear burkas. ^_~

I believe it's a matter between an anime fan and God. You have to figure out what causes you to sin. Also take into consideration those around you.

But I'm not the one whose word you should be taking.

Rai

Postby **uc pseudonym** » Mon Dec 20, 2004 5:34 am

I wish the artical had been written with normal text, but I suppose that it functions none the less. Like termyt, I'm not sure if I should be posting in my current state of distraction.

Postby **Kura Ookami** » Mon Dec 20, 2004 5:53 am

I aggree with Rai. We each need to make our own decisions on what we watch and what we wear, but we do need to take into account others around us.

But I'm also not the one who's word you should be taking.

Postby **Hitokiri** » Mon Dec 20, 2004 6:16 am

Intresting article and I very mcuh agree with it. My sister wil have some of her school friends who are like 12 and dress seriously like a stripper. I remember a comment a girl made last year when I was a senior going to school when it was negative something. She aid something like "Why does it have to be so cold outside!!" I looked over and she was wearing a tanktop and a miniskirt (she put on the jacket after she got in cause tank tops weren't allowed.

As a Christian and anime, we shoud draw the line at where we feel that the anime is pulling us down to sin. When we begin to start to stumble in any sort of way, as a Christian, who should take some time off from it and if it makes you stumble that much, I suggest stop watchig/reading it all together.

Postby **skynes** » Mon Dec 20, 2004 6:20 am

I think there does need to be borders made, obviously hentai etc. is an absolute not. But as far as what they should wear goes, you need to look at how people dress in real life and apply the same borders there. Obviously in different countries and places there are different standards in that culture so each of those places will look upon the same clothing differently.

Thinking of something Jaci Velasquez said (paraphrased) "People send letters to me complaining that I dress too sexy, in Italy they complain that I dress too conservative".

I doubt you can make one universal line, only individual ones. I personally haven't come across any troubling pictures on CAA, but thats just me.

Postby **Cap'n Nick** » Mon Dec 20, 2004 6:39 am

I think I understand what your mom was talking about. Even shows that don't have sex or nudity can be designed to inflame lust. One of the more disturbing examples of this happens to be one of the most popular anime on this forum.

Postby **FadedOne** » Mon Dec 20, 2004 6:53 am

uc pseudonym wrote:I wish the artical had been written with normal text, but I suppose that it functions none the less. Like termyt, I'm not sure if I should be posting in my current state of distraction.

haha....AMEN. I mean no offense to the original poster, but yeah....it's hard to take an article totally serious(or read it through for that matter) with the crazy font sizes. weird.

Postby **Mave** » Mon Dec 20, 2004 7:18 am

The article seemed a little too dramatic for me but there are some points I do agree with. I agree that ladies ought to watch what they wear so they won't cause someone to stumble. However, it's NOT to say that guys shouldn't take responsibility of their eyes. Lust is caused by the cooperation of both females and males so to maintain sexual purity, the same goes. I've talked to my boyfriend before and agreed not to wear certain clothing that distracts him while he watches out for what he looks at. Sounds fair enough.

About immodest clothing, I was never a fan of any type of clothing which distresses you with the prospects of your thighs/cleavage accidentally revealing themselves. It's just silly. Many ladies need to quit measuring their self-esteem from how well they can attract males.

I acknowledge that anime/manga female characters tend to be portrayed 'too sexy' in anime. Now, it's not a huge problem for me since I'm able to appreciate the female figure without being infused by lust.

I'm beating around the bush again. Ok, to answer your questions: What is too shocking for me? I suppose blatant nudity does it. Period. Nothing freaks me out the best than seeing a full-blown naked person.

Where do I draw the line?
1) Watching an anime: Where it's full with scantily-clad women and they take a lot of showers/hot baths. Anything worse than that gets a red mark by me. If there is only one fan-servicey woman, I can still handle it (Ex. Cowboy Bebop).

2) In a Christian website/draw Christian manga: I suppose I'll draw a female character according to their background and culture as representative as possible. It's a little tricky, considering that some of my female characters are less than modest by most Christian standards. But in reality, not all women are clad in sackcloth. I may show some cleavage or thighs where necessarily but I would make sure it doesn't happen often enough that it would seem -that- is the whole point of the story. It's quite difficult to describe how I deal with this, really. I keep in mind that guys are part of the audience whenever I draw and do my best not to cause anyone to stumble. It may sound silly but I think it really helps if you love and respect a female character.

Postby **Mangafanatic** » Mon Dec 20, 2004 9:24 am

Being a bit of a writer myself, I simply couldn't make myself read all of that article in which the author obviously thought his points weren't strong enough to be communicated without the use of massive font and excessive bold print, but, from just skimming it, I'll make my comments on the subject at hand.

For me as a lady, I have a hard time figuring out just how important modesty in manga or anime is to me. I use that minimal bold print to say that I know modesty is important because it protects our brothers from falling into lust, but how a woman in anime is clad doesn't cause me to sin. I'm not tempted by it, obviously.

In general, I stay away from fanservice or nudity in manga because I don't want to send the wrong messages to manga publishing houses. I don't want them getting money from manga or anime that I wouldn't want any of my Christian guy friends flipping through.

Bluntly, I don't really know how many lines girl must draw in their anime unless of course they're doing it to send a message to the market (like me). But I shall give it some thought.

Postby **Cap'n Nick** » Mon Dec 20, 2004 9:36 am

A good point. You do have to remember that you're voting with your money. Even if a title has a good plot or interesting characters it's important to consider what else you might be voting for.

Postby **Arnobius** » Mon Dec 20, 2004 9:51 am

That's an interesting thought about the different levels of threat with two genders. I do think guys have to be careful, because even if drawn characters are not themselves an erotic turn on, they do have the tendency to cater to the baser instincts and can bring guys' thoughts down to the level of thinking of women as sexual objects.

I think a lot of it depends on how it's handled. Some nudity (like in Maison Ikkoku seems to be done more for the sense of humor-- somebody walking in at the wrong time and getting embarassed for example. Other nudity or fasnservice is drawn to be erotic and even if not anatomically correct.

Seems to me that guys have to watch out for how the series affects them. If they start to feel lustful feelings they should discontinue the series. Perhaps Christ would say "It is better to lose the $29.99 for the disc you have to throw out than to be cast into Gehenna with the complete collection." (I hope nobody thought that was being irreverent).

Postby **Ashley** » Mon Dec 20, 2004 10:10 am

I must say I really agree with Mave and Anime heretic; both have made several excellent points. Women alone can't be blamed for lust. It's a two-way street. Guys have just as much as a responsibility to keep their eyes/thoughts pure as we do with our clothing choices. Period.

I disagreed with a lot of things that other said, but I won't go into them. The point of this thread was to find out how it effects CAA. Well frankly we HAVE thought about that; that's why there's image guidelines to follow. If it's too busty, too skimpy, too tight, too sexually charged, it will be taken down. We know it's an important principle and even the questionable stuff gets run by the male mods to see what they think of it. The reason you may see some rather shocking violaters of that rule in the bishoujo pic thread is because the thread is older than the rule.

It's hard for me to say where a line can/should be drawn as far as anime because, as Mangafanatic pointed out, I'm a woman. I'm not bothered by the same sort of temptations. At most, I look at a large-busted female and joke to my other female friends how much her back must hurt. I'm a very strong believer in personal guidelines between you and the Lord---you let God tell you when and where enough is enough. The Holy Spirit is an incredibly powerful person and believe me, if you want to have His guidence He will indeed give it.

Postby **Arnobius** » Mon Dec 20, 2004 10:27 am

Ashley wrote:Women alone can't be blamed for lust. It's a two-way street. Guys have just as much as a responsibility to keep their eyes/thoughts pure as we do with our clothing choices. Period.

That's very true. Males respond to visual stimuli, but we also have the responsibility to practice "custody of the senses," looking in another direction if we see something that we find inappropriately erotic. I guess you could say that men and women have different but interrelated tasks in this area.

Postby **true_noir_chloe** » Mon Dec 20, 2004 10:37 am

Overall, the title was the first thing which caused me to worry - "the War Room?" :eyebrow:

He starts out angry and never lets up. Mave said it was "too dramatic" and I'd have to agree and add, it was awfully pompous and self-important.

And, sheesh, why is everyone so angry these days at the world? I mean, really it's become very sad.

Christ loves the world so very, very much, especially at this time of the season where we remember His birth and purpose to come and lower Himself to become a man and die for our sin, and there are those in the body who continue to lambast the world and go against how Christ wants us to view the world.

The world is lost, and it needs a Savior. It doesn't need another mom nagging it over every sinful act.

Mave wrote:Where do I draw the line?
1) Watching an anime: Where it's full with scantily-clad women and they take a lot of showers/hot baths. Anything worse than that gets a red mark by me. If there is only one fan-servicey woman, I can still handle it (Ex. Cowboy Bebop).

2) In a Christian website/draw Christian manga: I suppose I'll draw a female character according to their background and culture as representative as possible. It's a little tricky, considering that some of my female characters are less than modest by most Christian standards. But in reality, not all women are clad in sackcloth. I may show some cleavage or thighs where necessarily but I would make sure it doesn't happen often enough that it would seem -that- is the whole point of the story. It's quite difficult to describe how I deal with this, really. I keep in mind that guys are part of the audience whenever I draw and do my best not to cause anyone to stumble. It may sound silly but I think it really helps if you love and respect a female character.

I agree with Mave here, as well, and agreed with all of what she said and Ashley and Osaka.

Ashley wrote:I'm a very strong believer in personal guidelines between you and the Lord---you let God tell you when and where enough is enough.

I totally agree with this.

Postby **Sonicbomb77** » Mon Dec 20, 2004 10:44 am

i have been reading and thinking about that article for quite awhile today, and now it is time for my theory. yes it is correct that people should have more dignity, but its not just the people who need more dignity to blame, in fact, their kinda the LEAST to blame. its the people who look at them in the wrong way that are more at blame. yes i have a hard time admitting that i don't fully like that article, but i guess it is almost perfectly correct. but i meant that word in my last sentence saying ALMOST. some people are "natural Beauties" meaning that because God gave them a great figure, they are not allowed to go to the beach because some perverted boys might look at her in the wrong way, whether she meant for them to like her in a perverted way or not. i actually noticed that a lot of people are like this [in my area at least] it's not the fact that they want others to think of them like that, but a lot of them just are naturally and don't even care to notice. to be honest, its just one of those things that seem like only one person can make up their own mind on such a subject, and if their choice is the bad side of the story, then more people will look at it wrong, and thats why we have our population the way it is. you can try to change people, we will always succed at getting the word out, but only the Lord can make the decission of whether they will ever change, or if the devil will make the deccession. i don't really know what to say as i seem to have found a subject that has actually got me thinking to the point where i almost feel like life is not worth living [sorta] life is just too hard, too short, and too fast, which is where most people look at life as if it is all about enjoyment like the article says. we should at least try to enjoy life, but the ways that some people enjoy life are in the wrong ways [such as perversion]. also somthing just popped in my head to prove its just depends on who thinks such thoughts. when you learn to draw, the first thing you learn to draw are humans [at least for most people it is] this reason is why most artist are above the age of 12. you first have to learn the basic shapes which means you have to be able to draw a human "nude" figure basically, other wise our works come out looking like picasso's masterpiece works, and not everyone wants to draw like that. So because we learn to draw the human figure, but not in a perverted way, it woudn't be bad now would it? so it actually is all about the people looking at them, not living as them. [but they can help alot if they don't make it tempting]
...
...
i think i confused everyone :sweatdrop: or put them to sleep. sry so to put it to the point is *drum roll* the article is Correct to the point ^_^ [yeah, i know, it wasn't worth writing a newspaper article to say that, but hey, you gotta enjoy life, thats one way to ^_^]

Postby **PrincessZelda** » Mon Dec 20, 2004 11:17 am

JediSonic wrote:I read THIS article yesterday and it really got me thinking: where should we draw the line with modesty in anime... not only what we watch, but also in what we draw - the example we're setting for CHRISTIAN anime! I told my friend's mom about the CAA one time and she said that she didn't like anime in any form because female characters were almost always drawn what she called "too sexy". And looking back on this site, sometimes when I see a picture from (example) Neon Genesis Evangelion, I think "thats doesnt seem like a very christian outfit. And yet here it is on the site, maybe the biggest, most authoritative christian anime site out there.

And I've seen worse here than the example I mentioned before.. look around the first few pages of the bishoujo pic thread and there was a pretty shocking image (to me). So now my question to you, fellow CAAers, is... what's shocking to you? Where do you draw the line in what you watch, in what you show others on a christian site, in what you draw?

NOTE: The thread under this same title, which I made yesterday while the site was acting up, is totally blank and incapable of accepting "replies" (invalid thread error) so if a mod could please delete it I'd be much obliged

Yeah, I agree.

Postby **aule1701** » Mon Dec 20, 2004 11:52 am

i really think that i depends on the person and how they are in seeing that kinda stuff and how they them selves act when seeing the images. as for my self i attended a art and design school in NYC and during my time there i came to see a certian art in nudity and near nudity with not being sexual in nature but then agian there are things in anime there are not ment to be art and are just there for the content as in ninja scroll the movie that kinda freaked me out.
as for fanservices as long as it not excessive and over the top i am ok with it expecialy if its funny(like love Hina )
in all people should have there own bondries with what they watch and choose to read.
if there are not comfotable watch they should not watch or read the matrial they are plenty of anime and manga that you can read that do not come near fansercies or nudity or language
thats my though on the matter

Postby **agasfas** » Mon Dec 20, 2004 1:41 pm

Where to draw the line...
First the article serves a good point and saying we need to be mindful about what we wear/watch. Good point. If it looks like you shouldn't be watching (morality or subconsciously) then don't.

Ashley wrote:Guys have just as much as a responsibility to keep their eyes/thoughts pure as we do with our clothing choices. Period.

True. I hear so many women say, all you guys are pervs. Why do y'all always eye us when we walk by. Well, to be honest, if you wear skimpy clothing, then you should already know in advance that you will be getting looks--common sense. If you dress in a luring/lustful way, be prepaired for people to look at you in that manner. Cause and effect. Same applies w/ males.

If you feel your in a uncomfortable situation, then run. Run like Joseph did when he was tempted to commit adultery. Don't stay around to be tempted. We are all accountable for our actions. We can see something tempting, then we act upon it. Either run or stay, look or don't look.

*By run, i don't alway mean in the literal sense. If it's a dvd, stop watching it. If it's a person dressing luring, look away. If it's a situation, walk away. We are all accountable for our own actions; it's not fair to only blame one side over another. We all have our own standards of acceptability, just be mindful of your own limits--whether it's in anime or real life.

Personally I don't get offended easily, I can watch animes that contain hotsprings scenes in them and not think of it in a sexual manner. Doesn't matter if they're male or female hotsprings; if they are only talking then whatever, I have no reason to be offended. It's culture. Some examples: inuyasha, outlaw star, love hina, DBZ, Here is Greenwood, etc... It has never got me to think of them sexually or anything. Some people it may. Can you watch the Ms. AMerica pagent w/o being lustful? Some can, some can't. Same premise goes along w/ that. If you start to question if it's pushing the lines of acceptability...simply turn it off (or run

)

Postby **JediSonic** » Mon Dec 20, 2004 2:35 pm

ashley wrote:If it's too busty, too skimpy, too tight, too sexually charged, it will be taken down. We know it's an important principle and even the questionable stuff gets run by the male mods to see what they think of it. The reason you may see some rather shocking violaters of that rule in the bishoujo pic thread is because the thread is older than the rule.

Thanks for clearing that up!

true_noir_chloe wrote:He starts out angry and never lets up. Mave said it was "too dramatic" and I'd have to agree and add, it was awfully pompous and self-important.

And, sheesh, why is everyone so angry these days at the world? I mean, really it's become very sad.

Well, the article I mentioned was intended largely as a wake-up call for teenagers who dont realise that immodesty is a serious problem. Even though God made the world in love, materialism and the desires of the flesh can be a hindrance to Christians just the same. Remember Matthew 18:7: "Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to sin! Such things must come, but woe to the man through whom they come!"

I think the way in which the article was written (even if the fonts do make it look unprofessional or not serious reading material) serves to get young people's attention so they can start thinking about their role in the preservation of purity and perhaps their gender's role (which I think you guys have done a great job of elaborating on) in particular.

It is indeed true that guys need to restrain themselves in what they choose to look at just as much as girls do in what they wear. Especially in the case SonicBomb mentioned about girls who dress modestly and still look too attractive.

Postby **Mr. SmartyPants** » Mon Dec 20, 2004 4:50 pm

i was always disgusted on how many girls dressed, always showing their belly and stuff. Annoyed me.

I can't nescessarily recall any girl in an anime that disgusted me like that. Usually f they were really skimpy, it just passes by me. (Take lust from full metal alchemist for example) Maybe because shes some bad dude killing others, i dunno...

its very strange.... i wonder. Why Am I more tolerant? strange... strange...

and even if a girl who dressed modestly did look attractive... then... well... they're attractive! Not in a sexual way, but..... they're just pretty. ya know?

egh, i don't know if i worded everything right, im confused a bit right now

edit: then again... i always tend to look at a girl, on a matter of cuteness, like how she acts, and purity and stuff. (take mitzuki from full moon ^_^) Not if they're hot or anything

Postby **Htom Sirveaux** » Mon Dec 20, 2004 5:19 pm

I can handle occasional nudity in anime if it's
A. Totally nonsexual in nature (e.g. a setup for a gag in a bathhouse or something - in fact, now that I think of it, most of the nudity I've seen in anime/manga are bathhouse scenes)
B. Not just there for the sake of being there (i.e. fanservice).
Still though, I try to avoid series that might contain frequent or semifrequent nudity. If I wouldn't feel comfortable watching something with my bedroom door open so my parents can see too, then I won't get it.

As far as figure drawing (female figures in particular) is concerned, I have a general rule: If a character could not live comfortably (or live at all) with a certain figure were she a real person, then she shouldn't be drawn that way. To me, what's even more disgusting than an oversize bust (although that's not right either, and some figures can get way out of hand with this) is an undersize waistline. Certain characters I've seen would have to have their stomach, kidneys, and the upper two-thirds of their intestines removed to have a waistline that size. I'm sure I'm not the only guy who would not dig that kind of figure on a lady.

Postby **Kenshin17** » Mon Dec 20, 2004 5:29 pm

Well I have a few things to say.
I can handle ocasional nudity. Suchas nudity used in many mecha anime. As an artistic thing. I think However that nudity or imodesty detracts from a show. I find a show much easier to watch if it pulls away from such.

I am also of the opinion that a anime girl drawn fully dressed is much more attractive then one drawn with less clothing. Drawing them fully clothed lets you like her for more resons then just a lustful one. You can appreciate there qualities. Koaru from Kenshin is a great example. She dresses modestly, is still a beauty and she has so many cool and admerable qualities. Did I mention Kimaonas are so cute

Anyway my point is I can take fanservice and nudity but I try to stay away from animes/manga with a load of it. Once in a while is not enough to make me stop if I like the anime but exessive or overly blatent is not. I don't think its cool at all though.

Well thats my 2 cents. Hope I wasn't to confusing.

Postby **Arnobius** » Mon Dec 20, 2004 5:34 pm

true_noir_chloe wrote:Overall, the title was the first thing which caused me to worry - "the War Room?"

He starts out angry and never lets up. Mave said it was "too dramatic" and I'd have to agree and add, it was awfully pompous and self-important.

And, sheesh, why is everyone so angry these days at the world? I mean, really it's become very sad. Christ loves the world so very, very much, especially at this time of the season where we remember His birth and purpose to come and lower Himself to become a man and die for our sin, and there are those in the body who continue to lambast the world and go against how Christ wants us to view the world.

The world is lost, and it needs a Savior. It doesn't need another mom nagging it over every sinful act.

Well, the internet allows everyone to blog. Some people express themselves in a way that alienates others. I've done that before. Overzealousness sometimes happens when someone is enthusiastic about religion.

Postby **JediSonic** » Mon Dec 20, 2004 7:40 pm

kenshin17 wrote:I am also of the opinion that a anime girl drawn fully dressed is much more attractive then one drawn with less clothing.

That sorta goes for me too.. although I perhaps mean it in a different way than you. If I see someone totally nude, I immediately freak out and run away. If I see someone fully covered in skintight clothing, its harder to pull my eyes away because there isnt that "she's naked! AUGH!" reflex. Thats probably not what you meant at all :sweat:

Postby **Kenshin17** » Mon Dec 20, 2004 7:55 pm

JediSonic wrote:Thats probably not what you meant at all

Not really, being a guy, but I totally see your point. I meant like Koaru or Aoi with their kamonos. But yea I don't like the whole nude thing as you proboly guessed. I find it totally unessacary. Though if the story is good and the nudity is limited I will watch it. Though it would be so much better without. Such as in Full metal panic.

Postby **JediSonic** » Mon Dec 20, 2004 8:18 pm

Not really, being a guy, but I totally see your point.

umm... I'M A GUY TOO! :lol:

If I were a girl I wouldnt by having to drag my eyes off of other girls in skintight clothing, now would I?

Postby **Kenshin17** » Mon Dec 20, 2004 8:21 pm

So sorry. *ducks behind cover* Hard to know online :sweat:

No offense meant, and no I guess you wouldn't then. I guess mabye you meant something along the same lines. My bad.

Postby **Ichigo_89** » Mon Dec 20, 2004 8:31 pm

Well then I have a question for you guys on something that's hard for me to decide. Honestly, do you think Faye is betrayed as an erotic looking person due to her "fashion"? And do you think it's too much in that first episode with Vicious in it, when she's captured. Of course, I'm talking about the Cowboy Bebop series right now.^_^

"It's too sexy" .. drawing the line for modesty in anime

"It's too sexy" .. drawing the line for modesty in anime

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