Dating...um

[DarkNozomi]

Also why the crap are so many people talking about curses in this thread? Have I somehow traveled into an alternate reality where it's the 1500s but we somehow have internet?

Curses are mentioned in the Bible, you know. I'm not saying that it's definitely the answer, but there's not too many other ways to explain how three of her fiancees died within days of proposing to her.

[DaughterOfZion]

Except, as I posted earlier, in a previous thread she said one man did NOT die afterwords. Also she never said in her first thread that the 2nd guy actually asked her, just that he was going to.

Also, there's this little thing called coincidence. She said one was a suicide, which could easily have happened either way, marriage proposal or not. And the cancer? Pretty much sure to happen. Not everything is cosmically related. So immediately running around crying "Curse!" is pretty ridiculous.

[AdriTan]

Okay, while I definitely don't think being engaged three times before you're 15 is wise at all, I also think that maybe we could be a little less overwhelming in our responses to this thread.

[Nate]

Curses are mentioned in the Bible, you know.

Baal is mentioned in the Bible so I guess he's real too.

Look the thing about curses in those days was that family and the nation were big deals. This is why a man was obligated to marry his brother's widow if his brother died without producing a son, and why he was publicly humiliated if he refused to carry out this duty. You did not want to have your children or their children shamed or harmed, because it was a big deal. Saying "If you mess up your kids are going to bear the burden" was a pretty effective deterrent.

In today's society, the family name and carrying on your line is not as important. People don't really worry about shaming their family name since it's not a big deal in our society. Curses weren't supposed to make the descendants feel shame for what their ancestor did, it was a way of discouraging certain sins. These days if you were to tell someone that their descendants would suffer because of what they did, their response would likely be "So what, I don't care, they're not me." It's not an effective deterrent.

Not to mention that blaming curses was why we got crap like the Salem Witch Trials and abuse of infants and children. It's pretty childish and silly to believe in curses these days, and is really just a last ditch effort to try and make sense of a cold, uncaring world. It's mostly just a defense mechanism to escape from the reality that the world is fallen and imperfect, and crappy things happen that aren't the fault of anybody.

As a final thought, I'll quote John 9, where I believe Jesus speaks pretty clearly against curses.

As he went along, he saw a man blind from birth. 2 His disciples asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?â€

[AndrewinIce]

[quote="Nate (post: 1599477)"]
Not to mention that blaming curses was why we got crap like the Salem Witch Trials and abuse of infants and children. It's pretty childish and silly to believe in curses these days, and is really just a last ditch effort to try and make sense of a cold, uncaring world. It's mostly just a defense mechanism to escape from the reality that the world is fallen and imperfect, and crappy things happen that aren't the fault of anybody.

As a final thought, I'll quote John 9, where I believe Jesus speaks pretty clearly against curses.

As he went along, he saw a man blind from birth. 2 His disciples asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?â€

[Warrior 4 Jesus]

Nate, you can't throw away the belief in curses just because we live in the modern world. Some things are forever and curses are part of living in a fallen world. As for the Salem Witch trials, yes, many of the trials would've been a result of fear-mongering but I believe some of those witches would've been legit. Witchcraft still exists in modern society. It takes many forms but it basically comes down to trying to be your own god.

You must not bow down to them or worship them, for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God who will not tolerate your affection for any other gods. I lay the sins of the parents upon their children; the entire family is affected—even children in the third and fourth generations of those who reject me. 6 But I lavish unfailing love for a thousand generations on those[a] who love me and obey my commands. (Exodus 20:5-6)

[Nate]

Jesus himself cursed a fig tree.

Yes, for not having figs. During the season where figs didn't grow. And instead of causing it to grow figs, he threw a hissy fit and was like "Fine I didn't want your lousy figs ANYWAY!"

Yeah I kinda don't put any stock into that story because it makes Jesus look like a petulant child. That or at the very least it wasn't a real curse which would only prove my point. After all if I go to a vending machine and it doesn't have the snack I want and I say "Curse you vending machine!" I'm not really putting a curse on it am I?

Jesus is not saying, 'Curses are not real'. He is saying, 'this man is not cursed.'

I never said curses aren't real, I actually said the opposite in the first part of my post where I stated that they were used as motivation for the people of Israel to straighten up and fly right since their identity as a people and nation and the continuation of their family line was of utmost importance.

Besides that was my point was Jesus was saying "Just because this guy was blind doesn't mean he's cursed." That's why it's stupid to say "Oh no these guys who proposed to you died that must mean you're cursed."

Edit:

Nate, you can't throw away the belief in curses just because we live in the modern world.

Sure I can because that's what makes the modern world the modern world. I certainly don't want to go back to the days of "Hmm your child has trouble paying attention? He must be cursed, let's torture it out of him."

I'd rather not regress to worse living situations thanks.

[K. Ayato]

It might be a sign saying "You're too young to think about marriage".

[Warrior 4 Jesus]

Good old Nate, keep throwing out exaggerations. I certainly don't believe in attributing curses to 'kids who struggle to pay attention'.

Don't look for 'demons' under every bush, but also don't ignore the fact that they do exist. There needs to be a spiritually healthy balance.

[K. Ayato]

We live in a fallen world, Tintin. Crap is gonna happen no matter what, regardless of who caused it.

[Nate]

I certainly don't believe in attributing curses to 'kids who struggle to pay attention'.

Yes, just "people who are unfortunate in relationships."

Don't look for 'demons' under every bush, but also don't ignore the fact that they do exist.

I'm not ignoring that they exist but I'm still going to be completely skeptical of anybody who claims to be/know someone who is possessed by a demon, and if anyone tries to blame a demon for something I'm not going to buy it.

I see no contradiction in stating "This thing exists, but is not a cause for concern in today's society." I mean I fully admit that polio and smallpox exist but they're not a cause for concern for multiple reasons.

Again, I've stated that curses were motivation for a societal view that does not exist today and thus are pointless unless you believe in a jerk God who sits up in Heaven going "I'm going to hurt people for no reason!" Likewise demons, while they exist, really have no reason to do anything in the world today considering how lousy conditions are in many areas and the fact that human beings are more than capable of sinning on their own. I would say that attributing anything to demons is to perpetuate the notion that humans are "basically good" and only fall due to outside influence. I personally believe this is not the case.

[AndrewinIce]

Yes, for not having figs. During the season where figs didn't grow. And instead of causing it to grow figs, he threw a hissy fit and was like "Fine I didn't want your lousy figs ANYWAY!"

Yeah I kinda don't put any stock into that story because it makes Jesus look like a petulant child. That or at the very least it wasn't a real curse which would only prove my point. After all if I go to a vending machine and it doesn't have the snack I want and I say "Curse you vending machine!" I'm not really putting a curse on it am I?

I never said curses aren't real, I actually said the opposite in the first part of my post where I stated that they were used as motivation for the people of Israel to straighten up and fly right since their identity as a people and nation and the continuation of their family line was of utmost importance.

Besides that was my point was Jesus was saying "Just because this guy was blind doesn't mean he's cursed." That's why it's stupid to say "Oh no these guys who proposed to you died that must mean you're cursed."

Edit:

Sure I can because that's what makes the modern world the modern world. I certainly don't want to go back to the days of "Hmm your child has trouble paying attention? He must be cursed, let's torture it out of him."

I'd rather not regress to worse living situations thanks.

So because you interpret the story as Jesus acting like a baby, you throw it out? Instead of looking for the meaning behind it? Wow...That explains a lot about you.

Being the modern world does not make curses go away. Do you think that blessing too have gone away? Or God also? What all has suddenly vanished in the 'modern world'?

[K. Ayato]

Can it, Andrew. No use trying to debate with Natester, unless you want to stay up past bedtime.

Besides, he knows the story of the fig tree. He's pointing out that it's a weak argument to use for "Curses existed in the Bible". How about Noah's curse to Canaan, hmm?

[Warrior 4 Jesus]

K. Ayato, I know we live in a fallen world and that bad stuff happens all the time. I'm saying these things exist and that although most of the time they shouldn't/can't be attributed to curses, to write some cases off as not being curses is just as much a fallacy. I'm not saying 'the devil made me do it' is a good excuse, that sort of talk frustrates me. The Enemy, the world and our flesh all contribute. We need to be responsible for our own actions (sinful or otherwise) while recognising that there are beings in the spiritual realm (bad and good) who do interact with creation.
Curses exist. Blessings exist.

[Davidizer13]

Yes, for not having figs. During the season where figs didn't grow. And instead of causing it to grow figs, he threw a hissy fit and was like "Fine I didn't want any of your stupid figs ANYWAY!"

I heard an interesting alternate interpretation of that event: figs grow two kinds of fruit, at different times of the year. One is your typical fig, the other is something different. That second type of fruit grows earlier in the year, and indicates that the tree's been pollinated, and will grow the other type of fruit later in the year. When Jesus was looking at the tree and didn't find the fruit, He was looking for the pre-fruit, and when Jesus didn't find any, ithat's when he cursed it. It was a sign that there were serious problems with the tree, and when they came back that same way later, Jesus knew that it was going to be dead. It adds an extra layer of symbolism on that passage - Jesus came looking for the signs that the Jews would be ready for the Messiah, and didn't find any, so He knew that their time of being chosen especially for God had come to an end. Anyway, there's that. Carry on!

[Nate]

Being the modern world does not make curses go away. Do you think that blessing too have gone away? Or God also? What all has suddenly vanished in the 'modern world'?

Curses exist. Blessings exist.

Guys I know that I sometimes joke that nobody reads my posts but you know it's pretty irritating when I see definitive proof that nobody reads my posts. It sure is a good thing I didn't say that curses don't exist, I don't know who this imaginary person you're pretending to argue against is but it certainly isn't me because I never said curses don't exist and said that I wasn't saying that at least three effing times.

Now you're starting to make ME curse because I'm **** off that neither one of you is reading what I'm posting, or are being willfully dense in misinterpreting it. And yes, it has to be willful density because there is literally no other way to read "I admit curses exist" and think that this somehow means I'm arguing that they don't.

I'm going to go slam my head against a wall because it's clearly a better use of my time than trying to get either of you to understand simple English.

[Warrior 4 Jesus]

I know you've mentioned recently that you believe curses existed, but you didn't mention that earlier. Also, the post you quoted was aimed at K. Ayato, not you, Nate.

I'm not trying to **** you off and I am reading your posts.

[Vilo159]

I love the contradiction in a Mormon appealing to what a vast amount of the Christian world does/says. A vast amount of the Christian world says that believing we can be like God is one of the most dangerous sins that exists, and that Joseph Smith was a false prophet. I would think you of all people would be the absolute last person to try and use "what the vast majority of the Christian world believes" as a defense.

Sending a PM, since the thread has moved on.

[K. Ayato]

Regardless, akorecki, you have better things to focus on at your age than guys or dreading that you're cursed just 'cause some dudes who pursued your affections ended up dead. Last I heard, you had a crazy diet where your father forbade you to eat anything white (what the heck?) and no social life whatsoever.

So what's it gonna be? Truth, or more tall tales that ain't even epic?

[Warrior 4 Jesus]

Am I sometimes naive? Yes. Too trusting? Yes. Did I think this through enough? Probably not. Did I read Nate's posts? Yes. I'm going to put this thread down to an over-imaginative teen who wants the spotlight.

Also, thanks for ranting about me on FaceBook. Super classy. At least you didn't mention my name.

[K. Ayato]

Take it to PM, boys. Seriously.

[AndrewinIce]

Am I sometimes naive? Yes. Too trusting? Yes. Did I think this through enough? Probably not. Did I read Nate's posts? Yes.

You debated and kept your cool. Even kept your language in check, (****).

Take it to PM, boys. Seriously.

I can't help but agree. We're getting no where except getting irritated.

[DarkNozomi]

Baal is mentioned in the Bible so I guess he's real too.

Um yes, there's a demon named Baal that was worshiped back then and in some places in the world still is.

Look the thing about curses in those days was that family and the nation were big deals. This is why a man was obligated to marry his brother's widow if his brother died without producing a son, and why he was publicly humiliated if he refused to carry out this duty. You did not want to have your children or their children shamed or harmed, because it was a big deal. Saying "If you mess up your kids are going to bear the burden" was a pretty effective deterrent.

Family and the nation still are big deals. And it's only a deterrent if there is a consequence for it.

In today's society, the family name and carrying on your line is not as important. People don't really worry about shaming their family name since it's not a big deal in our society. Curses weren't supposed to make the descendants feel shame for what their ancestor did, it was a way of discouraging certain sins. These days if you were to tell someone that their descendants would suffer because of what they did, their response would likely be "So what, I don't care, they're not me." It's not an effective deterrent.

Not to mention that blaming curses was why we got crap like the Salem Witch Trials and abuse of infants and children. It's pretty childish and silly to believe in curses these days, and is really just a last ditch effort to try and make sense of a cold, uncaring world. It's mostly just a defense mechanism to escape from the reality that the world is fallen and imperfect, and crappy things happen that aren't the fault of anybody.

Most people in the world would agree with you... not me, and not some others. But most.

[quote="Nate (post: 1599477)"]As a final thought, I'll quote John 9, where I believe Jesus speaks pretty clearly against curses.

As he went along, he saw a man blind from birth. 2 His disciples asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?â€

[Warrior 4 Jesus]

By the way, the teen comment was referring to the OP, not Nate. I'm sorry, guys. I apologise for my behaviour in this thread. I think I'll leave this one alone.

[mechana2015]

Everyone who's debating theological points take it to PM, and get the tread back on topic.

DarkNozomi do not take personal shots at people.

[DarkNozomi]

DarkNozomi do not take personal shots at people.

I've re-read my posts and can't find anywhere that I have done so. But if you interpreted it that way, I do sincerely apologize

[Atria35]

Well, I think the most important parts of this thread are:

Except, as I posted earlier, in a previous thread she said one man did NOT die afterwords. Also she never said in her first thread that the 2nd guy actually asked her, just that he was going to.

AND

in a previous thread she said one man did NOT die afterwords.

So. In the end, it seems like everything that's been said about the proposals and subsequent deaths (or NOT, since OP cannot keep her stories straight on whether or not a few of them actually died) should be under serious suspicion.

[Yamamaya]

I get the feeling that...



On a similar note though, the whole "don't date/marry someone outside of your religion" does have some merit imo. After all, having two different value systems that you believe in very strongly can cause conflicts. Especially when these two different value systems are pulling you in two different directions when it comes to personal/financial/what have you decisions.

It also can cause conflict with children. What are you going to teach them? Should you teach them? How do you avoid confusing contradicting messages?

Of course these same issues can emerge from people in the same faith.

[Davidizer13]

You are incorrect. You're close to being as smart as me though, so I'll forgive you

I think I found your apparent personal attack, chummer. Also, if you want to understand stuff like logical fallacies like Nate was talking about, find a good book in critical thinking or logic; it does the mind good to have some understanding of that! Good stuff.

And yeah, OP's story reeeeeeally doesn't pass the sniff test; it smacks of chuuni... of that word in Japanese about pubescent teenagers what want to be special snowflakes and do stupid things like make up stories to make their lives seem more awesome. Nothing to see here, everyone go home, back to your normal lives, citizens.

[Crossfire]

But my normal life is so boring!