"It's too sexy" .. drawing the line for modesty in anime

[Kenshin17]

I must step in.
Is there a anti kimono clan here.

It is refreshing to find a comrade in arms. Let us encourage ourselves with this passage. Matthew 1:9
Thou shalt not mention kimonoes in certain contexts. Yea, I speaketh unto you.

What do you have against kimonos UC. I mean they are modest and totally cute.
Matthew 1:9...OK...sure. I looked it up just to be sure, that aint what it said. Kimonos are cute.

No offense meant but I really don't understand the hatred for kimonos!?!

[shooraijin]

I think he's kidding. ^^

[Arnobius]

The problem lies more with american comics than japanese ones in my opinion. In anime there's people of every shape and size, which of course is natural. In american comics i cant think of mny overweight people. And where are different races of people in american comics? I've seen more people of different ethnic minorities in anime than i have american comics. Anti-anime people are just that anti-anime. Hypocrites. They ignore that the same things could easily be said to descrive american cartoons.

In my experience most of the people in anime who are drawn in different sizes or racial groups tend to be drawn grotesquely for comedy purposes (and some of the racial groups are drawn in a way that could be considered racist). Of course, I have a preference for comedies, so perhaps it's not as bad in the more serious productions, though judging by the one's I've seen, it's also a problem there-- though not as extreme.

As for the "anti-anime" people, most of my experience with them (and unfortunately I have a lot) have been with issues over content that they see being aimed at minors. A lot of them don't like what they see in American cartoons either for that reason.

The parents I know in this group don't like what they consider the selling of sex to minors. They're used to the old days of the Comics Code and have an idea that this is the norm for what comics and cartoons should be. Also, in the old days, porn was women showing bare breasts and the rest of the details were not allowed to be shown. I think that if someone grew up with those types of thinking, they're going to react to nudity in anime as if it were porn.

ANother contributing factor was probably that in the early days of the anime explosion, American distributors made some poor choices with their self-imposed ratings, giving a 13+ rating to anime with bare breasts even though the US audiences tends to look at nudity as something that needs the equivalent of an "R" rating

I think it's wrong of anti-anime people to give a blanket condemnation to everything based on the content of a small portion of the market, but unfortunately in the old VHS days, a lot of the content was the violence and nudity type and only relatively recently has the stuff aimed at a younger market come out.

I find it best that we use patient explanations (apologetics) similar to what we might use in dealing with someone who is anti-christian: Finding out the objections and explaining why they are mistaken, followed by showing what it IS. It may not work for some, but it's probably the best chance.

[Kenshin17]

I think he's kidding. ^^

I thought so but I wasn't totally sure. Thanks for the clearification

[uc pseudonym]

I think that shooraijin made my intentions quite clear, but then again I thought that everything was quite clear in the first place. This post is somewhat painful for me to make, in that it feels terribly unnecessary, but to clear the record up once and for all:

I am not in any way against or opposed to the wearing of kimonos nor to Kaligraphic or any statements made by him in this thread (agreeing is another aspect). Kimonos are a style of clothing that I have no issue with (as much as I would ever have an issue with a style of clothing). Kaligraphic is a user that I do not know particularly well but have gathered some respect for.

My first post was made in jest simply because Kaligraphic drew attention to the fact that his first line could be taken in an improper fashion and I wished to satirize common responses in such cases. My second was created due to the fact that I had a response, and eventually acquired an actual reason for posting. Due to the "religious" nature of our anger, it seemed appropriate to quote Bible verses... in this case, completely off topic Bible verses.

This having been said: Kimonos are the Devil.

But actually, I would appreciate this thread returning to the topic, amusing as this may be.

[jeremy_potocki]

I've seen the good the bad & the "beyond hentai" of anime, and through the years anime has become more and more like the Amarican Prime time TV. more violent, more sexual, and way more into occult themes (even to the buddest religon.)

One of my friends said it best it's becoming more and more "westren flavored."

back 20 years ago 1 out of 10 were "anything goes" kind of anime and even 10 years ago 2 out or 10 were like that, but ever sence anime became more mainstream anime started to pop out titles that have more sex, graphic violence, and occult themed just to draw in more money from the outside world. Also the Japaness culture is soaking up the western culture (and not the good parts ethier I'm affraid) so this may only get worse as time goes on unless people with morals (Christian and Non-Christian alike) do something it may get too wild too handle.

Oh well enough with my ranting. ^_^

[Arnobius]

I've seen the good the bad & the "beyond hentai" of anime, and through the years anime has become more and more like the Amarican Prime time TV. more violent, more sexual, and way more into occult themes (even to the buddest religon.)

One of my friends said it best it's becoming more and more "westren flavored."

back 20 years ago 1 out of 10 were "anything goes" kind of anime and even 10 years ago 2 out or 10 were like that, but ever sence anime became more mainstream anime started to pop out titles that have more sex, graphic violence, and occult themed just to draw in more money from the outside world. Also the Japaness culture is soaking up the western culture (and not the good parts ethier I'm affraid) so this may only get worse as time goes on unless people with morals (Christian and Non-Christian alike) do something it may get too wild too handle.

Oh well enough with my ranting. ^_^

I don't know. With TV, they seem to be more strict with nudity than in the 80's, in that the characters now tend to have Love Hina type of nudity, while the 1980's anime tended to be anatomically correct when topless. Nudity wise, the excessive episode 26 of Excel Saga would have been considered moderate compared to many 1980's era anime-- and this is including mainstream titles. Many of the most infamous hentai titles (OVA) seem to have been a product of the late 80's/early 90's. There were certainly a lot of demonic titles as well. I think the only real changes were the laws in Japan on what could and couldn't be depicted that occurred in the late 1990's.

However, I don't want to get banned for discussing inappropriate matter, so I won't go into the graphic details or mention titles.

[shooraijin]

Probably for the best. ^_^

[Arnobius]

Probably for the best. ^_^

True.
Have you guys ever considered a forum for serious (as opposed to prurient) discussion of the analysis of mature themes from a Christian perspecitve (with safeguards to keep minors off), or would that be in opposition to what you want to be?

[shooraijin]

I defer this question to Ashley and she can amend my response if she likes, but it would be very hard to do proper age control, would likely be a troll magnet, and also probably isn't part of the site's mission.

In some of my reviews for more controversial series, I try to get into a little of this, but not in great detail because of the all-ages audience.

[Jeikobu]

I try to be careful in what I watch in all aspects, including modesty. I can accept some fanservice (Ai Yori Aoshi is easily my 2nd favorite show ever), but I have a limit. One of the reasons I stopped watching Tenchi Muyo was because I was sick of Ryoko constantly walking around completely naked trying to be seductive and all. I won't see Ghost in the Shell because I've heard of the intense nudity in it. I hope that most anime will try to keep this aspect in mind more often.

[Shao Feng-Li]

I hate living in a Godless society. THe problem with Japan is that they have forgotten the one true God.

God defined modesty with Adam and eVe, when he made them clothing that covered their whole bodies while they made lion cloths.

[shooraijin]

Let's not turn this into a discussion on apostasy in Japan, please. There are sinners in every country.

[Ashley]

Have you guys ever considered a forum for serious (as opposed to prurient) discussion of the analysis of mature themes from a Christian perspecitve (with safeguards to keep minors off), or would that be in opposition to what you want to be?

Shoo summed it up pretty well. Our objective is to be a family-friendly, "safe" environment online, and while I do believe in being honest about things/situations that may occur in an anime, I don't believe serious, in-depth discussion would be very productive here: because of the stated objective, in addition to the age level of some members here and the fact that, as Shoo pointed out, it'd be troll city.

I guess my stance can best be summed up like this: Hentai. Yes, it exists and no we're not going to pretend like it doesn't. I think people need to be aware of what it is and where it occurs, but you don't have to talk about it super in depth; you don't inspect garbage to see if it stinks. So I'm not going for an ideal society where nothing bad ever happens and pretend like sin or dirtiness doesn't exist, but nor is it really appropriate to have the kind of analytical discussion you were asking about. Now then, we can get back on topic. ^^

[Arnobius]

[quote="Ashley"]Shoo summed it up pretty well. Our objective is to be a family-friendly, "safe" environment online, and while I do believe in being honest about things/situations that may occur in an anime, I don't believe serious, in-depth discussion would be very productive here: because of the stated objective, in addition to the age level of some members here and the fact that, as Shoo pointed out, it'd be troll city.

I guess my stance can best be summed up like this: Hentai. Yes, it exists and no we're not going to pretend like it doesn't. I think people need to be aware of what it is and where it occurs, but you don't have to talk about it super in depth]
Understood. My concern was because I deal with people who think ALL anime is porn. You raise a good point though about the site being for all ages, so I'll respect that and avoid crossing the line here (hope I haven't already done so).

[Ashley]

Understood. My concern was because I deal with people who think ALL anime is porn. You raise a good point though about the site being for all ages, so I'll respect that and avoid crossing the line here (hope I haven't already done so).

If it's of any help, we're working on a new section of the site specifically designed to more accurately inform those who may have a skewed sense of what anime is--i.e. either "it's all for kids" or "it's all porn". Hopefully just after the new year, you'll be able to redirect your acquaintances there. And thanks for understanding.

[Arnobius]

If it's of any help, we're working on a new section of the site specifically designed to more accurately inform those who may have a skewed sense of what anime is--i.e. either "it's all for kids" or "it's all porn". Hopefully just after the new year, you'll be able to redirect your acquaintances there. And thanks for understanding.

I appreciate that. I've already been recommending this site to anime fans I know who aren't actively anti-Christian.