Fanfictions: Fun Form of Flattery or Felonious Infringement?

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Postby Jih » Mon May 14, 2007 12:07 pm

Nate wrote:Sorry, you're wrong.

Don't know much about copyright law, do you?

Even if you don't do it for profit it's STILL illegal. You can whine about it all you want but that's how it works, you can say it isn't illegal if it's non-profit, but you're flat out wrong. The law makes this abundantly clear.

Do companies go after everyone who uses copyrighted materials for non-profit use? Usually, no. That might be why you THINK it's okay, but it isn't as far as the law is concerned.

Yes, but do you want to play the odds like that? And if she had gotten unlucky and someone HAD seen it, then it might have ended in a lawsuit.

It's very commendable what Kitchan did, she did the right thing.

I don't think they do, but the difference is in Japan the anime/manga community supports dojin writers because it gives people greater exposure to their material (it's like free advertising), and a lot of studios will even hire dojin writers to become actual artists. One of those "We'd rather have this guy on our side" things I guess.



WOW, this is retarded. It's legal, go google fanfiction, there are endless mounds of sites...
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Postby Fish and Chips » Mon May 14, 2007 12:09 pm

Nate wrote:I don't think they do, but the difference is in Japan the anime/manga community supports dojin writers because it gives people greater exposure to their material (it's like free advertising), and a lot of studios will even hire dojin writers to become actual artists. One of those "We'd rather have this guy on our side" things I guess.

Alright, thanks for clarifying that, though I did mention the merits of free advertising originally.
Jih wrote:WOW, this is retarded. It's legal, go google fanfiction, there are endless mounds of sites...

The legality of an issue is not relative to the number of hits it gets on google.
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Postby Nate » Mon May 14, 2007 12:17 pm

Fish and Chips wrote:The legality of an issue is not relative to the number of hits it gets on google.

But Fish, I get thousands of hits for scanlations and fansubs! You're trying to tell me that it's all ILLEGAL?! And what about all those ROM sites I got! And the sites telling me how to get Vista for free! And the sites telling me how to hack into government computers! You're telling me ALL that is illegal?!
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Postby ChristianKitsune » Mon May 14, 2007 12:19 pm

There are endless mounds of sites promoting protitution, (I haven't ventured to look bt I am sure there are) but the fact still remains that prostitution is illegal in many states around the US. The same thing goes for copyright infringement. Just because there are tons of fanfictions...doesn't mean that they are legal or anything..^^;

The legality of an issue is not relative to the number of hits it gets on google
:lol: Or Wikipedia ^^;
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Postby Jih » Mon May 14, 2007 12:26 pm

Wouldn't all those servers be down if it were illegal?
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Postby ChristianKitsune » Mon May 14, 2007 12:36 pm

Jih wrote:Wouldn't all those servers be down if it were illegal?

I dont...think the Government is allowed to do that... and there are litterally billions of Websites out there, how will the government find all the websites that break the law? O_o Unfortunately, a lot of these sites fly under the radar..^^; Kinda like the anime on Youtube...until someone brings attention to the staffers, the anime stays...
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Postby Mr. SmartyPants » Mon May 14, 2007 12:38 pm

Jih wrote:Wouldn't all those servers be down if it were illegal?

"Why spend all the time and resources to do that when we got larger issues to deal with?", says the government.
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Postby bigsleepj » Mon May 14, 2007 12:41 pm

Jih wrote:Wouldn't all those servers be down if it were illegal?


Not if they're in a different country that is less concerned about legality of fan-fictions, like the Philippines or Hong Kong.
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Postby Nate » Mon May 14, 2007 12:42 pm

The government IS allowed to shut down sites if they are performing illegal activities...you don't think a server offering child pornography would be gone if it were found?

The government doesn't constantly surf every site on the internet looking for illegal content. Most people don't. Like Kit said, until someone brings attention to it, not much is going to happen.

Further, the reason fansub/scanlation sites don't get shut down is, pretty much all of it is unlicensed stuff, and though it is technically illegal, no one owns the rights to it in America, and companies know if they randomly shut down every fansub site, anime fans in America will get upset. However, when a series is licensed most fansub sites will take down that series/scan because of that, and the ones that don't usually get a cease and desist letter.

Just because companies don't know about something doesn't mean it's legal. If I were to copy down the entire book of Fellowship of the Ring into my notebook and change character names and claim it as my original work, it would be illegal. If I kept it in my house and never showed it to anyone, it would still be illegal, just no one would know about it. So simply because something exists and can be found on google has zero bearing on its legality.

EDIT:
Not if they're in a different country that is less concerned about legality of fan-fictions, like the Philippines or Hong Kong.

Yeah, that too. It's hard to shut down servers from another country.
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Postby uc pseudonym » Mon May 14, 2007 1:19 pm

Just the issue from another angle: on rare occasion, certain authors have learned of their fanfiction communities (on, say, Fanfiction.net) and requested they cease and desist. In these cases, the website closed those sections, many other authors removed their stories, and all was well.

As long as you would be willing to comply with such an authorial request, I feel that you're morally sound. With that established, I'm generally less concerned with legal details, especially on an issue such as this. Most people don't care, so as long as you recognize the legal rights of those that do you're not hurting anyone in a legal sense.

Offhand, we haven't addressed the legal exception for parody. Certain works are definitely legal.
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Postby AsianBlossom » Mon May 14, 2007 2:10 pm

But I'm not registered on any fanfiction websites, and from what I know, I think Fanfiction.net has a virus attached somewhere to the site. Oh well.

Anyways, yeah, I'll contact them. They'll probably be surprised that someone decided to actually do that.

Besides, I'm not trying to write parody; I'm trying to make these the best stories I possibly can...for myself and my brother to read, of course.
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Postby uc pseudonym » Tue May 15, 2007 9:14 am

AsianBlossom wrote:But I'm not registered on any fanfiction websites, and from what I know, I think Fanfiction.net has a virus attached somewhere to the site. Oh well.

Well, if the virus is one called RBW (Rampant Bad Writing) then yes. But from a computer standpoint, I've never had any trouble with the site other than some annoying version shifts.

In any case, I mentioned Fanfiction.net only as an example to show that the authors themselves aren't too concerned about it. They have the legal right to ask you to stop, but most choose not to exercise it. I suppose asking doesn't hurt, however. Please post if you get a response... I'm really not sure what such might be.

[quote="AsianBlossum"]Besides, I'm not trying to write parody]
Question for those who understand the law more than I: if someone were to write fanfiction but never post or distribute it, would that be legal in every sense? I'm remembering "personal use" clauses such as that you can tape movies from television if you only intend to watch them yourself. This is just a theoretical question, but I'm curious.
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Postby AsianBlossom » Tue May 15, 2007 9:38 am

Yeah, I'm curious about that too myself.
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Postby AsianBlossom » Mon Jun 18, 2007 1:20 pm

Okay, sorry to double-post like this, but I have some good news: today, I received a letter from Paul Levitz, president and publisher of DC Comics. Basically, he thanked me for my support of Teen Titans Go! (heh, yeah; figured that since I was writing him anyways, might as well show my support for it and all, seeing as it was only recently on "comic death row"), and then went on to say that he cannot authorize my fanfictions, but if I want to write them, I should realize that they can't be used for commercial exploitation, and that I'm writing at my own risk.

Like I'd ever sell my fanfictions.

But yeah, so I'm happy now. Praise God for helping me in this situation!
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Postby Okami » Mon Jun 18, 2007 3:40 pm

Huh, so Fanfics are technically illegal...

I've got a .hack and a Pokemon story that I'm going to be putting up soon, the .hack one doesn't even have any original-series characters in it, just mentions a few of them (Tsukasa, for example)...and the pokemon one only has half of a chapter, and me and my friends are roleplaying it (we're using our own characters, or own region, etc, only actual pokemon are the thing holding it together to not be our own story...) Yeah, would something like that be illegal, especially since I always put my disclaimers? I mean, it's not like I write them for anything but to pass time, have a little fun, and hopefully provide some entertainment somewhere...
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Postby AsianBlossom » Mon Jun 18, 2007 3:59 pm

That's why I write fanfiction. (For entertainment and passing the time and such, I mean)

I'm not too sure; disclaimers are good though.

The way I see it (and from what I gathered in the previous posts in here) a lot of this whole thing with fanfictions seems to be "gray-line" material, as Mr. Levitz said in the letter that they don't act against fans who are doing uncommercialized fan-works, so one thing you don't want to be doing is selling. I think it also depends on the company. Some companies like and even encourage fanfiction, some are okay with it, and some would rather you quit it. But even so, you could always ask the companies.
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Postby JasonPratt » Tue Jun 19, 2007 6:55 am

Popping in here late as a publisher!--to drop in a maximal post! Woot! (I'm probably dittoing several things in the discussion already, but just consider it independent multiple-attestation if so. {historical crit ref!}{g})

Yes, fanfic is technically illegal for public use; if you put it up somewhere publicly accessible, you have technically _published_ it yourself, even if you don't try to commercialize on it. Private use is another thing (answering UCPseudo's recent question.) Passworded sites may not count as public dissemination, though if some kind of commercialization is being run on it then once again that's another thing.

As noted, most rights-holders are _unofficially_ very tolerant of fanfic; the laws are there to protect the rights of investors and creators to compensation from use, not to impinge on freedom of speech, which fanfic would otherwise fall under protection of. On the other hand, libel is not protected by anything anywhere; and if a creator is being misrepresented by someone else, then that almost certainly would count as libel.

To give an example of this (which was probably mentioned already--late to the discussion, remember {g}), Tolkien would most likely be horribly annoyed at all the fanfic promoting freaky sexual unions between various characters of LotR. Even his friend C.S. Lewis, who was quite in favor of even allowing other writers to make money off his creations (considering the restriction thereof to be the sin of "intellectual simony"), would probably agree that people who disrespect Tolkien enough to write something at such total variance of what he believed, should be prosecuted under libel.

Asking permission, as noted, is always the safest way to go. No business entity is going to strictly authorize it, for legal reasons, but every business entity is a derivative abstraction from real people, and real people usually think fanfic is a great idea. {g}

So, safety rules:

1.) check if the publisher and/or author already has set up a place for fanfic! (Then you know it's safe, within the rules set up there.)

2.) if it's totally private usage, you're legally quite safe.

3.) if it's passworded usage, you may (I stress _may_) be technically safe (so long as you're not capitalizing on the access.)

4.) rigorously avoid trying to capitalize on the work. It isn't always obvious what counts as capitalizing, though, so I stress _rigorously_. {g}

5.) some types of satire, by the way, are protected even for capitalization purposes. There is a strong legal precedent for this, connected to the principle of freedom for public critique.

6.) try to understand what the author would and would not have approved of (which is likely to be same as his literary heirs, if any), in order to avoid charges of libel/misrep.

7.) be sure to credit the original author (and any subsequent authors if they contributed significantly--fanfic about Star Wars' Admiral Thrawn or Mara Jade, should credit Timothy Zahn as well as Lucas, for instance.) The main reason publishers and authors usually like fanfic, legal issues aside, is because publishers and authors _love_ free marketing. {g} (But not free marketing that makes them out to be perverts or terrorists or whatever. That's called libel. {wry g})

8.) ask permission from the publisher, if (which is usual) they and the author aren't the same person. The publisher is who is risking the capital for investment and has massive legal protection as such. They probably won't give you legal permission because other people are involved, but they may give you tacit permission.

As a working example then {g}: since I am also my own publishing company, and hold 100% rights to my work, as publisher I give permission for non-cap fanfic (and art {g!}) of my work to be publicly written, although I reserve right to prosecute for libel. I would even give permission for capitalized fanfic to be done, so long as 10% of the immediate proceeds are sent back to me; but that would violate the sole distribution clause in the contract with my primary distributor. So you'd have to send the 10% there first, so they could take their 14% cut of it. {wry g} (Actually, I need to talk with them about how far their sole distribution clause carries... {scribbling mental note})

I would prefer if people told me where the fanfic is happening, so I can check in on it every once in a while. Which reminds me of another potentially thorny legal problem: one reason publishers (and authors) might shut down fanfic, even if they personally otherwise would approve of it, and even if no other factors (like libel) are a problem, is because of risk of reverse intellectual property suit.

Let's say someone, after reading _Cry of Justice_ (which should be available in print no later than Labor Day, and probably more like mid-August, btw), decides they want to write fanfic speculating the answer to a plot mystery: what does Portunista mean by "the sharp cliff" incident? I'm clearly going to be answering this question eventually, but the fanfic writer makes her own guess and writes a story relating what happens during it.

But what happens, then, if she gets it largely correct?--which is quite possible, if she's paying attention to little clues scattered in Book 1. She's already published the material herself, and has dutifully obeyed my requests in regard to fanfic. What happens then if I write Book 2 and do what I was already planning to do in regard to the sharp cliff incident? Suddenly, I'm legally trespassing on _her_ previously _published_ creative work, and worse I'm making a capital return on it while she has gotten nothing! A nasty legal foofaraw might commence, now or later.

Slightly different example of the same principle: the fanfic'er decides to pick a piece of plot mystery that she thinks I'm not really ever going to answer--what Portunista did to be potentially expelled from the Cadre before the Cadrewar erupted, for instance. But I _was_ eventually going to answer that. Opps.

Slightly different case again: the fanfic'er, being (as many are) an incurable romantic {g}, decides to write a short story about Gavoda and Tanforan's first meetings and early courtship, what they did during the Culling, what happened to her city of Wye, how they got married, etc. I hadn't been planning yet to tell that story, but what if I decided later I wanted to? Well, I would have to make it different than the fanfic'er had done, wouldn't I? But what if she did something I not only think is cool, but (on contemplation) fits in better with my story than anything else I can think of? It's _my_ material--should I have to settle for something I think is substandard?

Here things get squirrely again. Legally, I would probably be obliged to share author credit and right of compensation with the fanfic'er. Okay, not really that much of a personal problem for me. But this opens the floodgates to gold miners: people start writing stories on spec, hoping that they'll strike something I might want to use someday, and so have a legal leverage. I'm suddenly held hostage by people I don't know who have trumped me in my own material! Worse, how is this to be distinguished from a case where I _was_ planning to do that story and the fic'er got there first with essentially the correct answer??

Ugh.

So there would have to be a proviso, something to this effect: I as author and publisher reserve all rights to my work, and fanfiction authors are only allowed to work without prosecution under the agreement that I still retain all compensatory rights to my material, including original rights to anything they themselves develop using characters and situations of my own creation.

Which in effect means that if you write a story about Seifas growing up as a boy in the Hunting Cry, and how he came to have his aasagai, and I decide I want to incorporate that material, I don't necessarily have to fiddle around with getting _your_ permission to use that material. Is that fair to you? No, probably not. Am I legally safe by doing this? Maybe not, but probably so.

That kind of horrid complexity and doubt and second-guessing, is what publishers (and authors) want to avoid, which is why fanfic _has to stay_ technically illegal. Which means I hereby rescind any apparent permission I may have given above to do fanfic, as being FOR INSTRUCTION PURPOSES ONLY! (original emphasis)

I can't even give tacit permission publicly to do it. It isn't because I'm a heartless creep; as a personal matter I would very much appreciate (non-libelous) fan fic, because I appreciate fan interest, and (more pragmatically) if I don't entertain you or otherwise provide satisfaction to you then you don't pay me and I don't recoup my prepaid expenses much less make enough money to continue operations as a business, much much less make any actual profit from the business myself.

But that's the key principle that has to be kept in mind. Publishing is a business, and I have a responsibility (and even a pragmatic obligation) to look at things from that standpoint or I will cease to exist as such. And then there will never be any official answer to questions like "Why is the Preface Author so upset?" or "Whassup with Jian?" {g}

Which in turn suggests a topical overlap with the popularity of do-it-your-self religioning. But that's another discussion. {g}

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Postby AsianBlossom » Tue Jun 19, 2007 7:33 am

So, judging by what Mr. Levitz said, what would posting a fanfiction on here (the CAA) be? Just curious, because not everything on here needs a password to be viewed.
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Postby mitsuki lover » Tue Jun 19, 2007 11:22 am

If you want to be technical filks would then be illegal as well,filks being folk style songs based on for example Star Trek.I believe Star Trek was one of the first shows to have fanfic written about it.
I would also like to point out that The Anime Cafe Forum does in fact have a section
for people to contribute fanfics,so it isn't like it hasn't been tried before.
A good reason why people don't sue is that,like fansubs,there are so many fanfics
out there,and some of them are rather good.For example:The Doctor And The
Enterprise,a rather interesting cross over between Doctor Who(featuring Tom
Baker's popular 4th Doctor)and the original Star Trek crew.
One also should point out that the word stressed here is TECHNICALLY.Technically there are a lot of things that people do on the computer that could be considered
illegal.
Technically the buying and selling of equipment to burn CDs and DVDs off of would be also considered illegal,but the manufacture of such equipment is not considered in and of itself illegal.
Technically one shouldn't even be able to produce AVMs.
So you see if you really want to get technical about it there is not much that technically one should be able to do on the internet.The fact is technically speaking the CAA and other like forums probably break some copyright law or other without knowing it every day.
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Postby uc pseudonym » Tue Jun 19, 2007 11:25 am

Very few sections of CAA are not public material, and the writing forum is not one of them. Similarly, because accounts are readily available, I would assume even these areas would not provide any legal protection.

JasonPratt wrote:Private use is another thing (answering UCPseudo's recent question.)

Thank you for satisfying my curiosity.
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Postby JasonPratt » Tue Jun 19, 2007 12:28 pm

Yeah, actually, it's illegal to post fanfic here unless you have permission from the rights holders--and the giant novel-length disquisition {Levitzian g!} gives some idea of the complexities involved from a legal standpoint of formally giving permission even when (which is usually the case) the rights-holders are quite happy for fans to do so.

Mits (who raises several pertinent points here and elsewhere): actually, the buying and selling of equipment to burn CDs and DVDs is not illegal. Which is why you can go into Wal-mart any day of the week and buy one, whereas it's harder to buy heroin, or a heroine, at Wal-mart right now. {wry g}

It's the actual burning of CDs and DVDs which is illegal. I think recently there has been a move to allowing a private-copy usage, similar to taping shows from broadcast for watching later, but things get weird again there because most shows _aren't_ freely broadcast anymore: cable and satellite have killed free broadcast (and ack, we _still_ have commercials! {g} This doesn't count the fact that TV stations are still required to have free broadcast transmitters in case of local or national emergencies, though I've heard rumors that that may be changing, too.)

To give an example of the establishing of legal principle, software companies are beginning to legally permit a certain number of for-local-use copies to be made of purchased software, as part of that license agreement most of us click past when installing. If that gets established, audio/video producers may follow suit. Not sure what eBook rights look like (though I expect I'll be finding out soon {g}), but the same principles would be legally applied there.

Regarding Star Trek fanfic. If Paramount puts out a call for fans to submit works, and chooses those works, and publishes them, then of course it isn't the kind of fanfic situation we're talking about any more; we're talking about something completely different at that point.

The laws have to be respected, and the intentions of the law need to be understood. The law exists to give rights-holders maneuvering room to protect themselves in a formally proper fashion from problematic usage. Paramount is not obligated to hunt down every person fanfic'ing Star Trek works, or even to hunt down any person doing so. But the law gives them the breadth to do hunting where Paramount discerns hunting is necessary.

It's a distinction between law and morality. Law is derivative from morality, and (ideally) serves morality, but they aren't the same thing. Morality is about intention: despite the popular saying, the road to hell is not really paved with _good_ intentions. {g} But where intentions fail or are abused, then in a fallen world law must exist as a neutral fallback position to be applied between parties.

This means that people are correct who intuit that well-intentioned fanfic isn't hurting anyone and shouldn't be punished. But the illegality has to be respected, too, partly because it isn't always obvious from a non-professional standpoint what is and what isn't hurting the rights-holder. Robert Jordan routinely mentions that he doesn't go to sites discussing and debating how his _Wheel of Time_ plotline is going and how it will turn out, partly because he recognizes that it will be an addictive time-sink when he needs to be finishing the dang series before he dies of his degenerative bone disease. {s} But what he can't say without, in a way, increasing a risk of the problem coming true, is that he doesn't dare visit those sites because then he wouldn't have plausible deniability in regard to his own plot development. It's much the same principle as publishers returning unsolicited submissions unopened: plagiarism charges work both ways. This is a legitimate professional concern, but it isn't something I myself ever even recognized existed until I became a publisher myself.

If you're going to do fanfic, the safest thing to do (aside from not doing it {g}) is to make good intentions as clear as feasibly possible. Paradoxically, asking for formal permission is probably not going to work, because professional rights holders _can't_ really give formal permission even though (usually) they want to. At best you'll get an answer like with Teen Titans Go!--personally they don't mind, but they can't give you formal permission. Which leaves you back at square one: you still don't have legal permission to do it.

Good intention doesn't excuse ignorance of the law, much less breakage of it, but again this is necessary as a starting position for defining formal maneuvering room. Actual application of the law may be far more tolerant, even when asking for a shutdown on material, precisely because good intentions _are_ important and real people recognize this. Attitude counts. Which is a good reason to alert the rights holders; it shows a good faith attitude. Just don't expect it to result in a formal permission.
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"For all shall be salted with fire. Salt is good, but if the salt becomes unsalty, with what will you season it? Have salt in yourselves, and be at peace with one another." -- Mark 9:49-50 (my candidate for most important overlooked verse in Scripture. {g})


"We must
be strong and brave--
our home
we've got to save!

We must make
the fighting cease,
so Mother Earth
will be at peace!

Through all the fire and the smoke,
we will never give up hope:
if we can win,
the Earth will survive--
we'll keep peace alive!" -- from the English lyrics to the closing theme of _Space Battleship Yamato_


"It _was_ harsh. Mirei didn't have anything that would soften it either." -- the surprisingly astute (I might even call it inspired {s!}) theological conclusion to Marie Brennan's _Doppleganger_ (Warner-Aspect, April 2006)
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Postby JasonPratt » Tue Jun 19, 2007 3:06 pm

Grin and smile, respectively. Sadly, I am a Luddite; and in days of old this is how we used to do emoticons. Except we used to use greater/less-than signs for the brackets. This was before html broke us of that habit by inflicting great horrors on us...

:)

Omigosh, even _my_ eyes are crossing looking back up at that mass... Is _that_ what I was doing all day!?!? Please, God, give me a life... (or an editing wife. The latter if possible. Everyone would rejoice. {g}{insert sound of editorial whip cracking over my head})
this message has been brought to you by
Bittersea Publications
in the owner's spare time {g!}


"For all shall be salted with fire. Salt is good, but if the salt becomes unsalty, with what will you season it? Have salt in yourselves, and be at peace with one another." -- Mark 9:49-50 (my candidate for most important overlooked verse in Scripture. {g})


"We must
be strong and brave--
our home
we've got to save!

We must make
the fighting cease,
so Mother Earth
will be at peace!

Through all the fire and the smoke,
we will never give up hope:
if we can win,
the Earth will survive--
we'll keep peace alive!" -- from the English lyrics to the closing theme of _Space Battleship Yamato_


"It _was_ harsh. Mirei didn't have anything that would soften it either." -- the surprisingly astute (I might even call it inspired {s!}) theological conclusion to Marie Brennan's _Doppleganger_ (Warner-Aspect, April 2006)
JasonPratt
 
Posts: 179
Joined: Mon Sep 11, 2006 11:54 am
Location: West Tenn

Postby CreatureArt » Wed Jun 20, 2007 2:56 am

I haven't the heart to read back through six pages worth of argument... but I think fanfiction, like fanart, is a legitimite form of creative enterprise. While I think its amazing practice and gives both creators and receivers a common ground of understanding, I think its more important to focus MORE on individual creative work for artistic growth.

That's just my two cents though.
---
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A sci-fi drama webcomic updating Thursdays.
PG-13. Rating description here.
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